I think I may have underestimated the issue of being Unaware in unskilled social skills. On top of that, the chromed up troll has no social skills whatsoever to include Etiquette. I think he's going to be a train wreck without any help from me. Thanks again for all of the advice. It definitely helped me understand the ins and outs of the flaw better. Did I mention that the chromed troll is also a drug addict with a penchant for late night Stuffer Shack runs? Good times.

one way to consider it is they interupt others, don't bow or shake hands, use inapropriate language and jokes, etc

Examples would be during a meet:
1 - the johnson bows and the rest of the team does while the troll just stands there and stares off into space
2 - during the negotiations while the face and J are talking he starts telling a crude joke to another team memember in vulgar language
3 - He interupts after getting bored and asks "who we got to fragging kill or what we blow the hell up?"

Strongly agree with the first example. It helps to think in terms of inaction rather than just action as well. If you find yourself at a meet with the Scatterbrains you better be able to tell when Giggles is joking or not or you could have a very short night.

Being unaware means that a character can't Default.

That means no opposed roll.
Which means that, in addition to being unable to initiate social activities, the uncouth character will:
1) Con - Believe every lie he is told.
2) Etiquette - Assume everyone is his friend.
3) Intimidation - Buckle under the slightest pressure.
4) Leadership - Be cowed into listening to anyone.
5) Negotiation - Take whatever price is offered, with a smile.

This is some harsh, harsh business.

Yes. Yes it is, saint.

.....

I would love to be the face in the OP's group. Two combat monkeys who can't say no when told to do stuff - like stick to the plan?

<3.

It certainly depends on how the Uncouth characters are built. They could have Social skills.

He'd likely have to remind them pretty often though...

I played a TM once that didn't have uncouth, but my background had me coming from "The Streets" and having spent about a year in the Cooler. I was the only one on the crew that lacked social skills. IIRC, the GM *gave me* the points for Uncouth, because he felt that I'd been playing it pretty well and everyone was convinced of it to the point that the Mage would drop a force 5 suggestion on me to keep my mouth shut whenever we met with the Johnson.
Things I apparently did that made everyone think I was playing 'Uncouth':
1. Took potshots at other Miracle Shooter players whenever I found them in the bar.
2. Scribbled all over the Jhonson's face in AR during the meeting
3. Made some offhand comments and flashed my teammates with amusing but distracting text messages during our meetings with the Johnson.
4. Hacked several devices on the fly while the mundane Hacker and the Rigger were discussing the best way to go about it safely
4b. Laughed at the Mundane Hacker when she triggered a safety mechanism that destroyed an important device on another mission (I think she glitched or something. It was important though, we needed some files off of it.
5. Rickrolled (well, the 2070s equivalent) people's commlinks during a stakeout.

As far as Udoshi's comment, I don't think Uncouth supersedes a character being bull-headed. Actually, I would imagine someone that socially inept would be less likely to follow a plan, especially if they think theirs is better. I've tried to lead people that don't know how to follow, and let me tell you it's a PITA. Of course, I tend towards a more RP-friendly interpretation of the rules for a lot of things, so maybe RAW places, "Resisting a Mundane suggestion that goes against your nature" as some sort of opposed social test and I just don't realize it.

No, it's not even close. You have people who are very good at what they do, but don't get people at all. They can't read faces or body language, they take words literally, etc.

this.


also this.

uncouth is one of the most crippling negative qualities that i am aware of. the only other ones in the same range would be infirm and uneducated, in my opinion.

perhaps most importantly, an uncouth character isn't likely to actually be uncouth unless they spend the points on social skills, which will quickly cost more than you gained from the quality in most cases. otherwise, as was pointed out, they can't lie, and they can't tell when someone is lying. they can't intimidate, and they can't resist being intimidated. they can't be polite, and they can't tell when others are being polite (and by extension, they can't tell when someone is insulting them). they can't negotiate, and they can't resist negotiation. they can't lead (which is probably reasonable in most cases), and they can't resist being led (which is not so reasonable in most cases).

so don't worry if the character isn't roleplaying out being an ass. there isn't much the uncouth character can do to prevent the quality from being a serious problem for them.

if you want to make a character that is uncouth, you're best off taking incompetent: etiquette and poor self control or something like that.

Man, I did *not* consider the RAW implications of not being able to default on social defense rolls. That there is all the leverage I could ever need on an Uncouth character. "The Rent-a-cop is going to invoke his authority and order you guys to drop your guns - he gets one hit on a Leadership check. Everybody roll Willpower+Leadership at +7(Enemy, Harmful outcome)...except you, Crunch, you don't have it and can't default, so you drop your guns."

"What? No!"

"Awww...did somebody just earn his "free karma"?" /evil

It's a dick move, and I don't want to advocate dick moves, but I like having a couple on standby to retaliate with if the need should ever arise. Meddle not in the affairs of Game Masters, for they are unsubtle and quick to anger.

Well, it's really his fault for choosing the world's dumbest free BP. Minmax better!

Yeah if you use the social rules fully against your players uncouth is crippling. I've never actually met a gm who does it though, because I (and most players I know) want to decide how my character reacts in scoial situations. I'd hate to have my gm tell me that my character dropped his gun and ran away because he was so intimitaded by a bad roll. In my opinion that's for me to decide.
And yeah that is a double standard but this game is about having fun, and for me a big part of the fun is in deciding how my character would respond to situations.

The gm can tell me that my character is really really afraid but how he handles that is something I want to play out and not have decided for me.

most games I've been in it's not been an allowed flaw for bonus BP.

Simply because most don't know how to play it well

I think Jaid said it best in Build Advice


Take something less debilitating (like Incompetent: Etiquette ) and RP it. Uncouth to me sounds like you absolutely have to do the worst thing (socially) in every social situation and submit to everyone else's will in any social situation. I ban it in my games because it is too disrupting.

While I agree it is debilitating I think it is not as bad as some may think on the resisting side of things. Though I may be misunderstanding people. Sure you can't resist the bluff that does not mean you believe them, or are intimidated by them. There are thresholds so to speak for these things. If a lone cop draws down on your team he will have to roll a crap ton of successes to intimidate you whether you can resist or not.

As a PC, you don't roll for resisting all of these examples. When an NPC is lying to you, it's a role-playing thing. You just decide whether you believe the GM or not. Same with leadership, and some cases of intimidation. Intimidation is rolled when the players aren't feeling the same pressure that the PCs are. Etiquette is rolled when your character is expected to know stuff that you don't. Negotiation is usually rolled.

Personally, I'd remove Intimidation from the social skill category, for purposes of the quality.

I.e., these are things that happen to NPCs.

The whole point of Uncouth is that you just don't care what you sound like. You can't just keep your mouth shut. The fact that you are going to say stupid shit is what makes the difference between being uncouth and just plain socially inept.

Besides, 20 BP is huge. Your bad manners will get you in trouble pretty much every session.

Except when they don't. I go ahead and do some "Who's Lying?" opposed rolls for the players from behind my GM screen at the beginning of meets and such and the results affect how I'll play the NPC and whether I'll let any social savvy PCs get a "gut instinct" note one way or the other.

Excellent. There are always good reasons to do it differently than usual.

If you want to say that NPCs can't use social skills against PCs, that's your business. What remains is that a player is supposed to roleplay these circumstances.

If he is doing so according to the rules governing this god awful quality, then he should behave in a similar manner to what I ascribed despite his lack of a lack of a roll. Though, as long as he is with his team, the social test would be opposed by the team leader (face or point man,) so it's not something likely to be used against him by mooks so much as his own team mates.

But, hey, if you don't feel comfortable giving your players some character direction, I can understand that. Instead, you can use NPC initiated social rolls as a dice modifier against your less socially-adept players. Honestly, your team should be afraid of a good Pornomancer just like the corp is. So, if the HTR team's leader gives a really good "you have no chance to survive - make your time" speech, you could make your team check morale and, (supposing your face/leader can't give a better pep talk,) everyone suffers a morale-based penalty for the length of the engagement. If the Uncouth character gets caught alone in this sort of situation, he's going to be in trouble.

It does strike me as odd that Logic is never used to defend against Con - only your own suaveness. Ha-ha! I am *far* too pretty to fall for your lies!

You can use any relevant Stat/Skill combo, it's the GM's call.