Full Version: My players don't loot.
| QUOTE (Wutasumi) |
| I kinda have to disagree with the data loot = loot comment. You go into the matrix to steal data. You fight to survive. |
You go into the R&D facility to steal prototypes. You fight to survive.
~J
Well of course...the favor turned into a level 1 contact, so I suppose it was worth it...but they also had a guy with 7 boxes of overflow deadly damage that had to call in a favor just so he wouldn't be kicked out on the street.
*shrug* It's not a bad thing...just not quite what I'm used to. The groups I ran in when I was a player would backstab you and take your stuff given half a chance...
*shrug* It's not a bad thing...just not quite what I'm used to. The groups I ran in when I was a player would backstab you and take your stuff given half a chance...
Ya know, why IS looting such a bad thing? In SR they are supposed to be BAD GREEDY PEOPLE. As long as they don't do the impossible, or magicly pick up assault rifles in a gun fight it's fine.
If you'll notice, I don't think it is if done intelligently. I'm just objecting to the implication that physical looting is worse than Matrix looting.
(Take everything == stupid && Never touch a thing == stupid) is true.
~J
(Take everything == stupid && Never touch a thing == stupid) is true.
~J
It kinda is, Because like I said, when in the matrix, you entered FOR NO OTHER PURPOSE then to loot. If you rob some guys house, then it'd be the same, but looting Corps is a bad idea.
Oh, you mean while not on a run. Then it's similar to breaking into places just to steal stuff. An unnecessary risk many times, but occasionally rewarding.
Waitaminute. Are you getting paydata from the corps, or from some guy's home dataterminal? Trust me, they don't take Matrix intrusion any less seriously than physical.
~J
Waitaminute. Are you getting paydata from the corps, or from some guy's home dataterminal? Trust me, they don't take Matrix intrusion any less seriously than physical.
~J
| QUOTE (Wutasumi @ Oct 11 2004, 09:57 AM) |
| Ya know, why IS looting such a bad thing? In SR they are supposed to be BAD GREEDY PEOPLE. |
No, they are supposed to be professional trouble-shooters who demand a high price for a job done right.
Some small percentage may be pathological thieves and psychotic killers, but those are usually weeded out pretty quickly, either by getting themselves killed or arrested, or by just having the jobs dry up as fixers and Johnsons realize that they are not the professionals they claim to be.
As I said earlier, I am not against looting, but only when the time is right.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 11 2004, 08:05 AM) |
| No, they are supposed to be professional trouble-shooters who demand a high price for a job done right. |
Indeed, getting the job done right and looting are not mutually exclusive unless the Johnson says No Looting.
...or 'Leave no trace of your presense'.
Professional trouble shooter who wants to be high paid, and dosn't give a damn about his clients motivations, or how many people die falls right into BAD GREEDY PEOPLE in my book.
I'm not sure where you get 'Psychopathrun' out of Shadowrun.
Not everyone in the shadows is amoral. Not everyone is a killer. Even in the 2060's killers are hunted.
It's because Shadowrunners commit crimes (usually theft) for money that they can't afford to draw all kinds of attention from random acts of stupidity. There's a common expression in the shadows that says 'the shadowrun's over when the guns come out'.
Not everyone in the shadows is amoral. Not everyone is a killer. Even in the 2060's killers are hunted.
It's because Shadowrunners commit crimes (usually theft) for money that they can't afford to draw all kinds of attention from random acts of stupidity. There's a common expression in the shadows that says 'the shadowrun's over when the guns come out'.
That's because you shoot your way out instead of shooting your way in.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| ...or 'Leave no trace of your presense'. |
Some runs it is impossible not to leave any trace of your presence. Demo, assassination, extraction. Almost certainly someone was there.
Also, stealing several things introduces possible confusion as to which was your true target, or if you understood the significance of what you stole.
~J
~J
More often than not in the shadows a client will want the job he is contracting out to be performed as subtlely as possible, leaving as little chance for anything to be traced back to him.
In quite a few cases the target Corp's continued perception that their data is still safe is just as important as the actual theft of that data.
This is not to say that there is not a market for hired assassins and wrecking crew-type teams. Merely that this kind of work entails more risk, as they attract much more attention after the fact. People that perform these types of jobs repeatedly tend to either have a short life-span or are not usually offered the more subtle runs.
I'm surprised at your response Kagetenshi.
In quite a few cases the target Corp's continued perception that their data is still safe is just as important as the actual theft of that data.
This is not to say that there is not a market for hired assassins and wrecking crew-type teams. Merely that this kind of work entails more risk, as they attract much more attention after the fact. People that perform these types of jobs repeatedly tend to either have a short life-span or are not usually offered the more subtle runs.
I'm surprised at your response Kagetenshi.
I advocate the devil a lot. There are times for a silent Shadowrun, and I'm all for them. That being said, the fastest way out is often to achieve your objective, get near the exit, and shoot the rest of the way out before security can respond.
If you're better than their security, you can get away clean. This is optimal. If you can't be sure you can avoid detection, you make sure you get detected on your terms. Refusing to pull the trigger until the other guy has his/her finger on theirs helps no one.
~J
If you're better than their security, you can get away clean. This is optimal. If you can't be sure you can avoid detection, you make sure you get detected on your terms. Refusing to pull the trigger until the other guy has his/her finger on theirs helps no one.
~J
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Some runs it is impossible not to leave any trace of your presence. |
That's true. If you look back though, you'll find that I was merely continuing your statement of things a fixer might state that would preclude looting.
You mean that stealing only the prototype is being as subtle as possible? The client would simply be saying, "Yo, I hired runners to steal ONLY your prototype. It is my preeeciooous."
| QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 11 2004, 10:40 AM) |
| You mean that stealing only the prototype is being as subtle as possible? |
Yes, for several reasons.
The first would be to conceal the theft (or whatever) for as long as possible, giving their rival some type of edge. The motivations are endless in this case.
The second is because if the loss is quiet it can be kept from the stockholders of the target Corp. If the loss is accompanied by a string of dead and dying bodies and buildings in flames, it is much harder for the target Corp to conceal the theft.
Why do you care about the target? There is an old saying (Sun Tsu)...'always leave your enemy a way out'. Corps are less likely to put serious effort into tracking you down if they are not out-of-pocket for all the death and destruction in your wake, and still have the option of secrecy.
It's one of those risks you take. You never know if something you take may be so critical to the survival of a small corp that they will stop at nothing to get it back.
The key is, you don't know this about your target item, either. If the risk is too high, just pass the job up entirely. Only taking your intended item will not reduce that risk acceptably.
Incidentally, this is why you demand more money to grab valuable stuff or people from a small corp than for grabbing similar stuff from a big corp. The small corp is more likely to be in a life or death situation over it.
~J
The key is, you don't know this about your target item, either. If the risk is too high, just pass the job up entirely. Only taking your intended item will not reduce that risk acceptably.
Incidentally, this is why you demand more money to grab valuable stuff or people from a small corp than for grabbing similar stuff from a big corp. The small corp is more likely to be in a life or death situation over it.
~J
I'm not saying that there is not ever a time and place for guns. Merely that, in most cases, violence is not the best option for 'Plan A'.
I am also arguing against the broad generalization that was made that all Shadowrunners are greedy, bad people, with no morals and no thought for the deaths on their hands, or the accompanying consequences.
I am also arguing against the broad generalization that was made that all Shadowrunners are greedy, bad people, with no morals and no thought for the deaths on their hands, or the accompanying consequences.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| ...or 'Leave no trace of your presense'. |
"We didn't leave any traces, we brought them all with us and they are in the back of the truck."
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 10 2004, 08:02 PM) |
| I am also arguing against the broad generalization that was made that all Shadowrunners are greedy, bad people, with no morals and no thought for the deaths on their hands, or the accompanying consequences. |
There's always something morally ambivalent about them, and usually something at least somewhat unsavory. How deep this goes is variable, though.
Hmm… hosing the place down with an HMG packing gel rounds?
~J
There used to be a decker called Trace in one of my games. He used to play on it all the time.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| The second is because if the loss is quiet it can be kept from the stockholders of the target Corp. If the loss is accompanied by a string of dead and dying bodies and buildings in flames, it is much harder for the target Corp to conceal the theft. |
What does that have to do with looting? There's a radical difference between looting and engaging in the mass slaughter/property destruction you describe.
You are quite right that the target Corp would prefer to conceal evidence of a run against them. Smart looting won't be any harder to conceal than the theft of a prototype or a top research scientist.
The more risks you take, the more chances of something going wrong.
As I've stated a few times now, I have no problem with looting, as long as thought is given to the circumstances.
As I've stated a few times now, I have no problem with looting, as long as thought is given to the circumstances.
in many cases judicious use of looting, especially matrix looting where data is copied rather than erased, can hide motive... and thus make it harder to track you.
Also in answer to te post title, no you are cursed. there is a reason the BBB has a karma award for out thinking and/or stumping the GM.
Also in answer to te post title, no you are cursed. there is a reason the BBB has a karma award for out thinking and/or stumping the GM.
As for my runners, the day will come when the party gets more money from run-related grand theft auto then they do from the Johnson. This is All Kagetenshi's Fault™. They haven't been caught yet, though.
| QUOTE (Taran) |
| This is All Kagetenshi's Fault™. |
It's true, it is.
~J
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