Guys,
A quick question if you please.
I'm having a little debate about the possible cost for an operation to install a variety of 'Ware in my character.
We agree on the basics (Augmentation base price x grade), and keeping operations "off the record" can cost extra at GM's discretion.
Question is, however, if RAW in 4a supports the interpretation that the prices listed for the various types of 'ware includes the cost of installation in the body, of if it's only the price for the "item", and the actual operation then costs something extra.
We've both read this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...20cost&st=0
And this thread would seem to support the interpretation that the prices listed are only for the "item".
My problems with that interpretation, however are:
1) I can't find anywhere in 4a ed. that states clearly that it costs something extra to have the 'ware implanted. Healing and repairs sure. But not installation.
2) From a design perspective I find it a rediculous complication of the game (even if you can try to argue for it, based on logic that applies to our present time). If it was the intention that implantation of 'ware should cost extra, why isn't this clearly written? (Someone pls. quote me the relevant passage, and point me to where it is, if it's there, because I just can't find it!)
Hope someone can point me to a place in the rules for 4(a) ed. that clearly says that you have to pay extra for the installation of 'ware.
/Kyrel
I would assume the prices cover the surgery cost, but not the hospitalization.
I've seen this come up a few times before. I don't think there is a clear answer to be honest. The book just doesn't say which. Some say that if it doesn't say to charge extra then you don't. Equally, others will say that if it doesn't say not to charge then you should.
Many argue that the cost includes the surgery. Personally, I don't. The biggest reason is that Augmentation has rules provided for the players to install cyber and bio themselves (Au p126). I can only see having the rules to install for four reasons: 1) to avoid notice and get the mod without anyone learning about it, 2) to make some quick
on the side during downtime, and 3) to save on the cost of installation, 4) you just have to do everything yourself, your that kinda person. Also, given the rules for care costs, etc under the Advanced Medtech give good argument for charging for the service. But I suppose one could just argue that installing it yourself would decrease book price, but that seems a bigger stretch and seems to conflict with how other service related purchases work, such as drone, vehicle, and weapon modification.
When getting modifications for your vehicle for example, the price listed for the mods are for the parts as you can install it yourself. Will you charge the player the same thing if they don't have the skills themselves to do it and have to find a mechanic? If your answer is YES, then don't charge for the surgery. If your answer is NO, then charge for it. Surgery is a service too, so make it consistent with other forms of service. But most importantly, pick one and stick to it.
Many argue that the cost includes the surgery. Personally, I don't. The biggest reason is that Augmentation has rules provided for the players to install cyber and bio themselves (Au p126). I can only see having the rules to install for four reasons: 1) to avoid notice and get the mod without anyone learning about it, 2) to make some quick
on the side during downtime, and 3) to save on the cost of installation, 4) you just have to do everything yourself, your that kinda person. Also, given the rules for care costs, etc under the Advanced Medtech give good argument for charging for the service. But I suppose one could just argue that installing it yourself would decrease book price, but that seems a bigger stretch and seems to conflict with how other service related purchases work, such as drone, vehicle, and weapon modification.When getting modifications for your vehicle for example, the price listed for the mods are for the parts as you can install it yourself. Will you charge the player the same thing if they don't have the skills themselves to do it and have to find a mechanic? If your answer is YES, then don't charge for the surgery. If your answer is NO, then charge for it. Surgery is a service too, so make it consistent with other forms of service. But most importantly, pick one and stick to it.
There is no single passage that answers your question to my knowledge.
But assuming that the cost of implantation is included in the cost of the ware can be a slippery slope too. Next thing you know every team will include a dude with a high Cybertechnology skill who implants everyone in the group with cut-rate cyberware.
But assuming that the cost of implantation is included in the cost of the ware can be a slippery slope too. Next thing you know every team will include a dude with a high Cybertechnology skill who implants everyone in the group with cut-rate cyberware.
QUOTE (Method @ Apr 6 2010, 08:21 PM) 
There is no single passage that answers your question to my knowledge.
But assuming that the cost of implantation is included in the cost of the ware can be a slippery slope too. Next thing you know every team will include a dude with a high Cybertechnology skill who implants everyone in the group with cut-rate cyberware.
But assuming that the cost of implantation is included in the cost of the ware can be a slippery slope too. Next thing you know every team will include a dude with a high Cybertechnology skill who implants everyone in the group with cut-rate cyberware.
Well, if you had cyberware costs *not* include implantation, you'd still have groups wanting a dude to do implants for them. It'd just be that the cyberware would cost the same as at character creation, as opposed to that cost+implanting fee.
Yep, its kind of a two way street. I would just point out that the main "balancing forces" on an augmented street sam-type character are 1.) essence and 2.) cost. Eliminating number 2 (no that isn't toilet humor) would allow augmented characters to advance much more quickly.
QUOTE (Method @ Apr 6 2010, 08:42 PM)
Yep, its kind of a two way street. I would just point out that the main "balancing forces" on an augmented street sam-type character are 1.) essence and 2.) cost. Eliminating number 2 (no that isn't toilet humor) would allow augmented characters to advance much more quickly.
To some people, that wouldn't be a bad thing.
Since they would have to spend at least one day in intensive care (hospitals charge partial days as a full day anyway), I would assume that covers "implantation costs".
Add to that the time spent recovering from the surgery.
Costs can be found on p.175 Augmentation (tables)
Add to that the time spent recovering from the surgery.
Costs can be found on p.175 Augmentation (tables)
QUOTE (tagz @ Apr 7 2010, 05:12 AM)
I've seen this come up a few times before. I don't think there is a clear answer to be honest. The book just doesn't say which. Some say that if it doesn't say to charge extra then you don't. Equally, others will say that if it doesn't say not to charge then you should.
...
Also, given the rules for care costs, etc under the Advanced Medtech give good argument for charging for the service. But I suppose one could just argue that installing it yourself would decrease book price, but that seems a bigger stretch and seems to conflict with how other service related purchases work, such as drone, vehicle, and weapon modification.
When getting modifications for your vehicle for example, the price listed for the mods are for the parts as you can install it yourself. Will you charge the player the same thing if they don't have the skills themselves to do it and have to find a mechanic? If your answer is YES, then don't charge for the surgery. If your answer is NO, then charge for it. Surgery is a service too, so make it consistent with other forms of service. But most importantly, pick one and stick to it.
...
Also, given the rules for care costs, etc under the Advanced Medtech give good argument for charging for the service. But I suppose one could just argue that installing it yourself would decrease book price, but that seems a bigger stretch and seems to conflict with how other service related purchases work, such as drone, vehicle, and weapon modification.
When getting modifications for your vehicle for example, the price listed for the mods are for the parts as you can install it yourself. Will you charge the player the same thing if they don't have the skills themselves to do it and have to find a mechanic? If your answer is YES, then don't charge for the surgery. If your answer is NO, then charge for it. Surgery is a service too, so make it consistent with other forms of service. But most importantly, pick one and stick to it.
The last part of the argument I'm willing to buy into on some level. From a game mechanics POW you can argue that it makes sense to follow the same rules for modifying both vehicles and characters.
If we run with that at the moment, then what should the price for the installation be? Augmentation does list the prices for a day's worth of treatment at a variety of clinics. But how would you determine how long time the character has to stay there? Most operations would take a number of hours. Surgery also causes damage. So would the regular cost be 1 day's cost + number of days to heal all damage from the surgery? I.e. installation of a Deltaware item causing 3 boxes physical damage in surgery damage. Cost result: Item + 1 day's cost for the operation (5-10K pending on intensive or basic care), + i.e. 2 days cost for the time spent recovering (10-20K pending on intensive or basic care). And then up to double the price for the surgery and recovery time, if you need keep the operation secret? In other words 15K-60K on top of the Deltaware item itself?
I'll admit that my experience with Shadowrun is somewhat limited, but if I've understood things about right, then the average "income" of a shadowrunner is in the area of 5-10K per run per person. From this you need to deduct both cost of living and other expenses. Whatever you have left you can use to save up towards that 'Ware upgrade you are dreaming of. At that rate, getting even a Deltaware Rating 3 Cybereye system with no additional upgrades will cost you a minimum of:
System: 1.000*10
Surgery: 5.000-10.000
Surgery Damage 3P => 1-2 days recovery time => 5.000-20.000
For a grand total of: 20.000-40.000
If you need to keep the process off the books, then the implant and recovery price can easily double or more, depending on the mood of the GM.
Maybe it's just me, but say your character can save up, maybe 2500 per month, then you are looking at something like 8-16+ months worth of savings for something as "low-key" as a Rating 3 Cybereye System with no additional upgrades, which will be on the record somewhere. I do realise that the income level, of course, is determined by the GM, but still.
/Kyrel
I tend to handle the doctors bills in a very flexible manner.
Most times I have it set up so that the person selling the ware is also doing the surgery, or at least they are part of the same operation so they share the profits. Since they're making a profit already on the ware they will typically charge far less for their service, especially with very expensive items as I figure they already make a tidy margin on them, that way they can entice the customer. High cost items they'll likely just "throw in" the surgery and care costs as part of the negotiation. Lower cost ware they would typically be less likely to cut the surgery costs as they want to keep those things profitable. Rule of thumb to me though: surgery costs shouldn't exceed 1/10th of implant cost, unless it's very cheap or unusual conditions exist.
Also, I consider other factors. Is this procedure being done in a mall body shop, using the nice anesthetics and drugs? Or are you in a dirty shanty outside of Glow City going under the rusty knife of a half blind street doc, your only pain relief is a couple shots of stick 'n shock to the gut first? I think there might be a drastic difference in what these two might ask for. Being off the books might bring it up a bit, but quality of service matters too. Doesn't matter much if you got the ware off the books if you come down with Influenza, Botulism, HSV-5 (WHAT IS THAT DOC DOING WHILE YOU'RE ASLEEP!?) and end up having to get MORE medical treatment... perhaps the kind where they take records.
Anyhow, just saying that between the GM and player there is room to play around with the cost.
Also, if you consider the book price as just the price of the cyber without the surgery, then it's more profitable to the runners when they harvest off Street Sams they've taken out.
*Edited to add disease stuff from Augmentation (p131) and "rule of thumb"
Most times I have it set up so that the person selling the ware is also doing the surgery, or at least they are part of the same operation so they share the profits. Since they're making a profit already on the ware they will typically charge far less for their service, especially with very expensive items as I figure they already make a tidy margin on them, that way they can entice the customer. High cost items they'll likely just "throw in" the surgery and care costs as part of the negotiation. Lower cost ware they would typically be less likely to cut the surgery costs as they want to keep those things profitable. Rule of thumb to me though: surgery costs shouldn't exceed 1/10th of implant cost, unless it's very cheap or unusual conditions exist.
Also, I consider other factors. Is this procedure being done in a mall body shop, using the nice anesthetics and drugs? Or are you in a dirty shanty outside of Glow City going under the rusty knife of a half blind street doc, your only pain relief is a couple shots of stick 'n shock to the gut first? I think there might be a drastic difference in what these two might ask for. Being off the books might bring it up a bit, but quality of service matters too. Doesn't matter much if you got the ware off the books if you come down with Influenza, Botulism, HSV-5 (WHAT IS THAT DOC DOING WHILE YOU'RE ASLEEP!?) and end up having to get MORE medical treatment... perhaps the kind where they take records.
Anyhow, just saying that between the GM and player there is room to play around with the cost.
Also, if you consider the book price as just the price of the cyber without the surgery, then it's more profitable to the runners when they harvest off Street Sams they've taken out.
*Edited to add disease stuff from Augmentation (p131) and "rule of thumb"
Traditionally surgeons charge a flat fee for an entire operation, which includes the initial evaluation, the surgery and all follow up care (like care provided in the hospital during recovery, for example). Usually this is separate from charges like paying the anesthesiologist (who gets paid hourly) renting the OR (which is very expensive) specialized equipment and the hospital stay. Given that all these costs seem to be bundled into the cost of hospitalization in SR (as listed on page 122 of Augmentation), there is some logic for arguing that the surgeon's fees are included as well.
I'm personally all for not really bothering with installation costs beyond maybe a day of hospitalization. Heck, for some light standard/alphaware, you can get those done at mall kiosks! Sure, the risk of infection might be a little hard to swallow, given the sorts of folks who would STAFF a mall kiosk cybershop, but the point remains that fairly invasive surgery can be done on a whim's notice.
More importantly, I'd want to avoid, with a vengeance, the complex cybersystems introduced by the 'ware book in SR3. Which, if you played by the rules and did the whole surgery plan and surgery and whatnot costs, your alpha or beta grade datajack would cost, maybe, a fifth of what it'd take to actually have it installed. Of course, these are the same rules that introduced reduced fractional essence costs and other such nightmares of bookkeeping, so maybe I'm just a wee bit paranoid about it.
Paranoia's a good thing in Shadowrun to have, right?
More importantly, I'd want to avoid, with a vengeance, the complex cybersystems introduced by the 'ware book in SR3. Which, if you played by the rules and did the whole surgery plan and surgery and whatnot costs, your alpha or beta grade datajack would cost, maybe, a fifth of what it'd take to actually have it installed. Of course, these are the same rules that introduced reduced fractional essence costs and other such nightmares of bookkeeping, so maybe I'm just a wee bit paranoid about it.
Paranoia's a good thing in Shadowrun to have, right?
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