I'm not very sure how the Nuke program must be used and what are the consequences of the decrease of the target's Response or System ?

Does someone may complete the following example, please ?

What happens if I use a rating 3 Nuke program with one net hit on Persona with Response 4, System 4 with five running programs (rating 4 each, one of them is an Armor program) ?

I just left my unwired at home today as well... should've brought it in... my understanding is that every net success lowers the target's response by 1 or system/pilot by 1. Really it just gives you a way to slow them down or crash them in place of the attack program.

From Over Here, Nuke does have certain implications for cybercombat.



It can sever subscriptions, change your processor limit - and loaded program lag. Even a single hit can mess with your initiative.

If I have well understood RAW :

Example 1: One net hit added to a rating 3 Nuke program make for 4 damage. If the target rolls his System+Armor and gets 2 hits, he takes 2 damages from Nuke. I choose to reduce his System by 2 points:
- His new System is 2, so the target is using now rating 2 programs.
- His subscription limit is also reduced from 8 to 4.
- With 5 programs and a Processor limit of 2, the target suffers a -2 on Response due to program lag, so his new Response is now 2.

Before my Nuke attack, the target's Response was 3 (4-1), so he loses 1 point of Response (with consequences on Matrix defense and Matrix Initiative). He also suffers a -2 malus on his tests (program's ratings reduce from 4 to 2) and finally he loses half of his allowed subscriptions.

If I had used an Attack program, he would have lost 2 boxes on his Matrix monitor... and that's all.


Example 2 : If the target rolls his System+Armor and gets no hits, he takes 4 damages from Nuke. I choose to reduce his System by 4 points:
- His new system is 0, so he immediately loses all subscriptions and must resist a 5S or 5P dumpshock (according to the example of Slamm-0! attack).
- With a processor limit of 0, his Response is reduces to 0 so his persona freezes in the target's Commlink until he reboots.

If I had used an Attack program, he would have crashed only with a fully completed Matrix monitor (10 boxes).


I throught that Nuke program was overpowered, but in fact, it is over-overpowered !

Valerian,

While you're reducing the target's system, the local system rating is what I understood would control the limit of non-optioned programs. IE: You could have a rating 6 software, but if the system you're currently inhabiting is rating 4, it will max off at running at rating 4, having nothing to do with the system of the commlink you're actually using to login to the matrix from.

Just wondering where in the books it states the victim of Nuke suffers dumpshock when both System and Response hit zero, because it sounds like the user is still logged on but just can't do anything in the matrix aside from logging off.

You can have a number of subscriptions equal to twice your System rating. If your System goes to 0, you can no longer maintain your subscriptions. When the subscriptions go away, you are disconnected from the nodes just like you would be if someone walked up and turned off your wireless radio, hence the dumpshock.

That doesn't answer my question. "Where in the books?" , please. Meaning which book and what page or pages does it say this.

As I posted from the Nuke program itself in Unwired, when a Nude reduces System and Response to 0 you're not booted off the node at all, but you're frozen. You cannot act on the matrix until you reboot. A System of 0 is still a running program, and a character can take a simple action to log off and there's no dumpshock.

SR4A, page 225 specifies that your number of subscriptions is limited to twice your System rating. If your system rating is 0, you are limited to 0 subscriptions. The node that is running your persona does not take up a subscription, so you are not disconnected from the node running your persona when your subscription limit (along with your processor limit) is reduced to 0. If your persona is active in a node that you disconnect from without a Log Off action (which you don't get to do because your subscription was terminated by the drop in System rating), then why wouldn't you suffer dumpshock.

Every other situation that involves a severing of a subscription without a Log Off action involves dumpshock, whether it is a node you're in being crashed, or a node that you are in rebooting.

Also, Nuke specifies that you can take no action other than rebooting. Logging Off is explicitly listed as a Matrix action, so you can't Log Off. But it gets better. Rebooting explicitly requires a System+Response (10, 1 Combat Turn) extended test. With a System of 0 and a Response of 0, you can't reboot as a matrix action.

Game balance question: Why would you ever run Attack if you have Nuke?

Why use an assault rifle other than the Ares Alpha? Why use an LMG other than the Ingram White Knight? Why use manabolts rather than stunbolts? The game is full of mechanically suboptimal choices, which PCs are free to make for their own reasons.

Okay, so we agree that a Nuke cannot kick you off of a node, which is what was sounding like the case earlier. And a good question, kjones.

First, Jack Out & Log Off & Reboot are all listed as Matrix actions. As you say DWC, then by RAW you cannot disconnect yourself from the Matrix at all after you're Nuked as it prevents all Matrix actions whatsoever. On your own you cannot then suffer dumpshock as you cannot even Jack Out, but a slow and agonizing death as your meat body slowly dehydrates and you die within a matter of a few days. That is, unless you're lucky enough that your matrix opponent attacks you to bring your Matrix condition modifier to zero and then force a dumpshock, or a friend comes over to see you stuck and yanks your trodes (unless you're wireless on a DNI). Then, as you say you can't reboot so you might as well just toss that commlink away as it's useless. Would really suck if your pimped out ride has its node Nuked a few times to bring its effective device rating down to zero.

Thing is, the Nuke program says you cannot take any actions within the Matrix (Unwired, page 111), and it explicitly lets you restore System & Response by rebooting only. Log Off means that you are severing the subscription and connection from your commlink. This is not an action that you are doing from within the Matrix, like analyzing a node/icon. There's also no threshold to test against to Log Off, unless there's a rule somewhere that says an attribute of zero (as System is technically still running, even at a rating of zero) prevents you from anything that is otherwise an automatic success.

In addition, what about Switch Interface Mode? Free action, System only need be running (even if it's zero), there is no threshold test, and you move from VR to AR. This is not an action done within the Matrix, but only within your commlink. Even if you cannot perform a Log Off, if you can perform a Switch Interface Mode you can still avoid a dumpshock. Only a Black IC can jam a user from performing a Switch Interface Mode or Log Off action.

Reboot is also not an action that you can actually take withinin the Matrix as it requires you to sever all connections first (do you reboot your computer through your ISP?). A hard boot is also not accounted for, and that you can do by just pulling the batteries from a commlink to crash everything entirely, which then the second half of a Reboot would run as normal (after you put the batteries back in) on the commlink's normal System & Response attributes.

And in answer to your question, kjones:
Nuke a TM all you want and it won't do a lick of good.

Common sense does suggest that you can switch to AR and hard reboot your commlink. That said, everything I find in SR4A and Unwired suggests that having a subscription closed without a Log Off action will cause dumpshock to a VR user. After that, you'll be sitting there in VR, twiddling your thumbs, staring at a continually flipping hourglass because your commlink is too screwed up to even let you do a soft reboot.

Found this, too:

Just like your running programs, your subscriptions will degrade your Response. A reduced System score does not close all of your subscriptions, so a System of zero does not log you off that node and you do not suffer dumpshock.

With an Attack program, you need to deal 10 boxes of damage in your target's Matrix Condition Monitor to crash him.
With a Nuke program, you need to do System damage (as in my example 2), so with a System between 3 and 6, a Nuke program is about twice or three times more efficient than Attack program.

Before the crash of the target : With an Attack program, the target suffers a -1 every 3 boxes of damage in his Matrix Condition Monitor. With Nuke, each damage gives -1 on System which gives a -1 due to the decrease of the rating of programs. If the target is an agent, each damage gives -1 on Pilot which also gives a -1 on programs. In fact, each Nuke damage gives -2 to an agent, so Nuke is three times or six times more efficient than Attack.

If Attack is an AK97, Nuke is not an Ares Alpha... it's an assault rifle with 5 of recoil compensation and 10P/-5 bullets !

With this level of power, the fact that TM are immune to Nuke is not a limitation to Nuke, it's an advantage to TM.


I think that the idea of a new cybercombat program used to freeze your target was a good one, but the Nuke program is unbalanced... or we misunderstood something about it !

Frankly, whittling away at the matrix boxes of some IC is kind of boring. I've never actually played with Nuke (don't use Unwired) but the idea of cybercombat resulting in your node crashing down around your ears is pretty cool.

@ Valerian: About the only thing I can see is the original misunderstanding that Nuke can cause dumpshock to a user. Also, Nuke has to reduce both System & Response to zero. Running programs and excessive subscriptions can modify Response to zero at best (SR4a, page 222-223), but a System Nuked to zero and a modified Response of zero means the user can still act in the Matrix, using Intuition (+1 if hot simmed) only for initiative in cybercombat (normally Intuition + Response, +1 if hot simmed). Yes that user is acting incredibly slow, but they can still act.

@ kjones: Nuke doesn't cause your node to crash. It'll cause your icon/persona to freeze so you cannot act in the Matrix. Your Matrix Condition Monitor is 8 + (System / 2, round up), so at worst a Nuke program can reduce your Matrix Condition Monitor down to 8; potentially less if you've already suffered damage from an Attack. Once that's at zero the icon/persona crashes and you suffer dumpshock accordingly, but the node is fine. To crash a node requires a Hacking + Exploit (System + Firewall, Complex Action) extended test from inside the node itself, which is easier once the node is Nuked but you too will suffer dumpshock accordingly (SR4a, page 230). You cannot otherwise crash a persona, agent, or anything with a Matrix Condition Monitor unless you use Attack and only if you use Attack (Black Hammer & Blackout bypass the Matrix Condition to inflict direct damage to the user).