Can the Control Thoughts spell Break or Prevent the Mental Link Between a Summoned Spirit and its Summoner? For example, a spirit is on remote service to astrally guard a location. A rival magician also in the astral casts Control Thoughts on the Spirit. Can the spirit alert its master that something is going on?

Influence is a Much better option to use on a spirit in my opinion...
Unfortunately, I do not know the answer to your question though...

Keep the Faith

I would rule that it doesn't. But Spirits in my game are selfish bastards that would rather be told to go to the beach and follow that order than guard the facility. BUT... I think a reasonable argument can be made that the spirit loses a bit of free will they had in the summoning or binding process, as they now are compelled to follow the orders of the mage that brought them into being so to speak, so influence or even control thoughts might not be enough to cause it to go against it's original commands, which are also mystical in nature. If push comes to shove, since I've never seen any hard ruling on the subject, you could compare the magic attributes of the summoning mage and the mage doing the mind bending to see if it would counter original commands or not.
Sorry bout the runon sentence, but the editor is wonky for me and I didn't feel like retyping all of that>

I would say that they are incapable of disobeying the orders of the service they are carrying out no matter what kind of voodoo an enemy mage tries to work on them besides Banishing and Re-Summoning. A Control Thoughts to have them do something that didn't conflict with their orders would probably work though.

When they're bound, they're no longer free spirits. Even if they wanted to, they cannot disobey orders. However, Control Thoughts sounds exactly like a more powerful Control Actions, one where the target doesn't get to give a Willpower penalty to actions (it also has a +2 higher drain value than Control Actions). If Control Thoughts beats the spirit's Willpower, then it's compelled to obey. I'd rule that a spirit must follow, to the best of its abilities, whatever the latest (most recent) compelling order is. Normally, that's the task it was summoned for, but with Control Thoughts then it's whatever it's told to do while under the spell.

Control Thoughts would work as normal against a spirit, regardless of the orders that spirit acquired from it's conjurer. It will not, however, disrupt the link. The spell is a bit vague, but it seems like it does not prevent the target from 'acting normally' when not actively directed.

As stated by others, yes the spell will work on the spirit, no the spell will not "sever" the bond. Once the spell ends, assuming the spirit hasn't faded at dusk/dawn, the original summoner will still have all of his remaining services and, more likely than not, he won't have to spend a single one to have the spirit kick your ass for taking control of it. The spirit will do so gladly, using everything in its arsenal (Edge included) to see it happen.

That said, when I clicked on this topic I was hoping for a much more interesting question: What happens if you use a Possession Spirit on someone who's had Control Thoughts or Control Actions cast upon them?

The former seems pretty cut and dry; the spell has no effect because the subject's mind is forced into the background. The latter, however, would create an interesting conflict as the spirit tries to override the pre-existing spell.

What if the caster forced the spirit's thoughts to be absolutely nothing that the caster does not tell it. So the spirit still has a link that "allows the spirit to communicate with its summoner from astral space without revealing itself. This link also allows communication over a distance—though it does not extend to the metaplanes." But all of that information can be false. So that for the duration of the spell the Spirits' thought are ONLY what the caster dictates.

That's not how it works. Control Thoughts isn't "completely override all your senses and change the world around you." And even if it did, the "link" wouldn't be broken. Once the spell was no longer being sustained, the spirit would still be under the summoner's control. The spell just does what it does with anyone else and that's it.

Control Thoughts


That's SR4A description in its entirety. I've already quoted the description of the Spirit/Summoner bond before. It seems, to me, that if "The caster seizes control of the target’s mind, directing everything the target does" then this specific rule should override the general rule of the summoned Spirit's mental link for as long as the spell is Sustained.

I think the problem you're having is that you think the two effects are somehow mutually exclusive. The spirit can still be linked to its summoners and even hear him shouting out commands, but the Control Thoughts spell (if successful) dictates the spirit's actual actions. It's not stopping him from hearing the summoner, it's stopping him from doing what the summoner says for the duration of the spell. It doesn't sever anything; it just has control over the spirit.

The question that should be asked is: Does the summoner's attempts to control the spirit allows the spirit to make a new Willpower Test to resist its effects. I'd say yes, but only if the summoner is blowing services in each attempt.

Control Thoughts is not Influence – you don't get additional resistance rolls for being confronted with the wrongness of your actions.

So the spirit get's it's resistance roll every force combat turns and that's that.

I wasn't implying that it was Influence. I was referring to the general rule for Mental Manipulations and how you get an additional roll every Combat Turn, and how that might play into two powerful magical effects (Control Thoughts and the mysticism involved in services). I'm of the opinion that if the summoner is burning up those services to try and regain control of his spirit, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that it could speed up the frequency of the Willpower Tests. The spell is going to break sooner or later either way, but if the summoner is willing to burn up his services in the attempt, I think it could help speed it along.

Personally I'd just attack the magician who was trying to control his thoughts or try to find a way to restrain the spirit at the very least, but that's neither here nor there.

While that may be a possibility, it would be a house rule. And of course, as familiars are considered owing infinite services, this would make keeping control of them even harder.

The problem with Control Thoughts overriding spirit services is that a spirit's normal thoughts can't go against the orders of its summoner so why should implanted thoughts be able to do so? The bond between spirit and summoner is such that even if the spirit desperately wants to kill its summoner and actually physically tries to do so they will be prevented by the spirit-summoner bond. Thoughts don't have anything to do with the spirit's actions so I don't see why Control Thoughts should be able to cancel services being rendered by a spirit. Anything falling outside the realm of services being rendered would be controllable by Control Thoughts, but a spirit can not disobey a service no matter what it thinks or who's doing the thinking.

What if you change what they think their orders are? I'd assume a control thoughts spell can (temporarily) alter or block the (recall of) memories. If they can't remember ever being given an order, how can they be disobeying that order?

Don't confuse the name of the spell with its effect. Read the last part of the first paragraph to see what I mean.

One thing from my first post that hasn't really been addressed (since the discussion has moved more to general rulings) was the specific situation of a summoned spirit on a remote service. The spirit is in Seattle, the summoner is on a beach in Tahiti. The spirit is patrolling a location in the astral and an astrally projecting rival mage casts Control Thoughts on the spirit. Will the spirit's original summoner have any way to find out what's going on while Control Thoughts is sustained?

I thought this specific scenario might play out in a game I was going to run, but it didn't. I'd still like to know in case it happens next time.

I would say no. A summoner can't tell when his spirit is under attack innately, only when the spirit communicates it to him, and unless "guard this place and tell me if anyone comes by" was the spirit's service then control thoughts would prevent the spirit from contacting its summoner.



Yes, "The caster mentally gives commands with a Simple Action and the target is compelled to obey." That doesn't mean the target is compelled to do something it is physically incapable of doing. You can command a man who's chained up to burst free of his bonds but unless he can make the strength check he might have to try but he doesn't have to do it. It's the same thing wih spirits. You can't command a spirit with Control Thoughts to attack its summoner or disobey a service, it is physically incapable of performing those actions. It may struggle against its summoner's control to attempt to perform those actions, which would certainly alert the summoner, but it is ultimately bound by its very nature to obey the services of its summoner over its own will.