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Belvidere
I've only been active on dumpshock for the last week or so and I guess I'm making up for lost time with all of these new topics. But as I've been playing my characters I've found that my knowledges have actually proved more useful than alot of my active skills.

In fairness, I'm playing a face and a very cautious hacker(probably because most of mine kept getting geek'd because of bad hack on the fly checks) and so knowing more about or enemy had resulted in our group having much more sound plans that actually had info on our target, instead of relying on Johnson fed info (which has lead to far too many close calls and ambushes for my group).

So I figured I'd toss up this topic to ask everyone what they've found more useful, knowledges or actives? I know a majority are most likely to say active skills, because without them you really couldn't play. But I figured I'd toss the question out there anyway.

And if anyone feels like sharing stories where knowledges have kept the group from getting fragged, feel free to share! grinbig.gif
Dragnar
That question is a bit like asking "Which of the following is more useful: Your left leg or your right one?". None of them actually matters that much without the other.
Without knowledge skills, you're left without information, without a plan and without a way to move forward and actually act contructively.
Without active skills, you can't actually act on the information you've got, so you don't move forward as well.

Now, usually knowledge skills are easier to substitute (ask another PC or even a connection), but they're both just as needed to actually achieve anything.
Teulisch
active skills cost more to get and use- knowledge skills are fairly cheap. If you have a datajack, you can plug in as many knowldge skills as you want. but you need special ware to plug in actuvesofts, so those are usually have to be bought with experience.

from a game mechanics standpoint, active skills are more valuable. other than that, its more of a case-by-case basis of what you want to do. a shadowrunner is more defined by their active skills however.
toturi
Some Knowledge skills tend to be more useful than others. Professional and Street Knowledges are generally more useful than Academic and Interests. Knowledge skills can be used to keep players from delving into their OOC knowledge. The player may be a kick ass security expert but the character may not. And it also helps the other way around, when the character is supposed to be a genius at security design but the extent of the player's security knowledge is to lock his door when he goes out.
Belvidere
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 12 2010, 08:35 PM) *
Some Knowledge skills tend to be more useful than others. Professional and Street Knowledges are generally more useful than Academic and Interests. Knowledge skills can be used to keep players from delving into their OOC knowledge. The player may be a kick ass security expert but the character may not. And it also helps the other way around, when the character is supposed to be a genius at security design but the extent of the player's security knowledge is to lock his door when he goes out.

Very very true. We've got quite a few players who play on serious OoC knowledge, like knowing things about magic their characters should have clue about and it gets kind of annoying. I love asking our street sammy where he learned so much about the metaplanes. grinbig.gif
last_of_the_great_mikeys
This is why I love the Biowire echo. My technomancer instantly knows damn near anything he wants to about damn near everything!

If you are using the karmagen build rules and your gm allows it (the underlined portion is critical) and you like technomancers you can build one with biowire to start and completely skip out on buying knowledge skills.

The technomancer I am referring to that I play was under the age of majority would shadowrun while still in high school. He aced his exams because he'd just load up his brain with whatever he needed...but he never learned a damned thing. I'm eagerly awaiting his learning the hard way that sooner or later he'll end up without access to the matrix for whatever reason and have no knowledge to fall back on...
Yerameyahu
I'm sorry, I'm showing my ignorance, but what do Biowires have to do with _Knowledge_ skills?
Aside from that, couldn't anyone with a commlink and some basic programs do the same trick?
Jaid
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 12 2010, 11:09 PM) *
I'm sorry, I'm showing my ignorance, but what do Biowires have to do with _Knowledge_ skills?
Aside from that, couldn't anyone with a commlink and some basic programs do the same trick?

the answer to your questions, respectively, are:

nothing.
yes. (it would cost money, but that is also true for the technomancer). edit: well, you also need a sim module actually i suppose.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 12 2010, 10:09 PM) *
I'm sorry, I'm showing my ignorance, but what do Biowires have to do with _Knowledge_ skills?
Aside from that, couldn't anyone with a commlink and some basic programs do the same trick?

Actually I think you need either a SIM module or a datajack to "load" the skill into your brain. The tech version is better than the Technomancer version because if you get cut off from the Matrix you still have them in memory.

Now my question is how many knowsofts/linguasofts can you load up at once?
Mongoose
There's no limit to how many Knowsofts you can load up, but... yeah. I suppose the GM could call for an addiction test (it is a kind of simsense, and arguably hot sim) the failure of which would simulate your personality crumbling a bit under the false memories, and being unable to function.

Why would a TM have to worry about loosing access any more than a tech user? Can't the TM just load the 'softs into some portable device, and access that node?
Yerameyahu
In fact, it's much easier for a non-Technomancer, because they don't have data storage right off. A commlink has essentially infinite storage, no question of being cut off from the Matrix and 'losing' it.
Belvidere
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Apr 12 2010, 11:20 PM) *
There's no limit to how many Knowsofts you can load up, but... yeah. I suppose the GM could call for an addiction test (it is a kind of simsense, and arguably hot sim) the failure of which would simulate your personality crumbling a bit under the false memories, and being unable to function.

Why would a TM have to worry about loosing access any more than a tech user? Can't the TM just load the 'softs into some portable device, and access that node?


The only downside to knowsofts are things that knowsofts wouldn't truly cover. Truthfully, by mechanics they would cover anything. But as a GM myself and most GMs I play with would say you couldn't pick up a knowsoft of "Seattle Gang Identification" or "Ares Corporate Rumor". They're really meant more for a "Chemistry" and "Biology type knowledge, not street knowledge.
Jaid
QUOTE (Belvidere @ Apr 12 2010, 11:40 PM) *
The only downside to knowsofts are things that knowsofts wouldn't truly cover. Truthfully, by mechanics they would cover anything. But as a GM myself and most GMs I play with would say you couldn't pick up a knowsoft of "Seattle Gang Identification" or "Ares Corporate Rumor". They're really meant more for a "Chemistry" and "Biology type knowledge, not street knowledge.

i would argue seattle gang identification is likely available... just not very up-to-date. so you may know lots about what gangs were around a month ago, or 6 months ago, but forget about knowing anything too recent.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 13 2010, 12:48 AM) *
i would argue seattle gang identification is likely available... just not very up-to-date. so you may know lots about what gangs were around a month ago, or 6 months ago, but forget about knowing anything too recent.

Unless the Knowsoft you're loading has a subscription service where it auto-updates every week with all the newest gang information.
nemafow
Depends on the style of game and the GM.

Hack n Slash games might not require the use of knowledge skills very often (or at all!), where as the combat skills would be used very very often...

But the complete opposite, a game could be run in that theres absence of lots of dice rolls with a heap of roleplaying, and knowledge skills play a more major part in it all (ie knowledge skills used during roleplay to have the right information during a convosation scene).

I have also personally seen some GM's use normal skills in places where a knowledge skill should be used, therefore neglecting the use of said knowledge skills.

Edit: I agree with the OOC information too, when a player whips out knowledge they shouldn't know, a simple knowledge skill roll will determine if he/she can use that ingame if they INSIST on using it.. Some players play very well in using their own characters knowledge only.. Some, not very so...

Edit2: Also depends on the type of character! Some characters with very narrow roles/views, might not possess or require knowledge skills, while some will be ace at using/having them.
I personally love my characters to have some interesting knowledge skills, all in a characters conept though. Not that I get to play */rage*
Ol' Scratch
I'm just going to come out and say it: Active Skills are, by far, more useful than Knowledge Skills in SR4.

SR4 castrated Knowledge Skills in a huge way. What little knowledge you can muster out of them (which won't be much for most characters courtesy of a 6ish dice pool and some high thresholds for the more obscure and useful information) doesn't do you a lick of good if you don't have the Active Skills to do anything about it, be they Social, Combat, Physical or Technical.

For example, what good does knowing that the maglock you have to get around is an Ares Arms© Servolock 3000, and the details thereof, if you don't have the skills to actually bypass it? And how does that knowledge help at all compared to someone who doesn't have it but has the same active skills as you do? Nadda. Oh hey, you recognize the guy you're about to meet with as a local mob underboss. Does that help you one iota with your Etiquette or Negotiation tests? Nope, because it's those active skills that keep you from acting like a total dumbass, not the actual knowledge. (Though there'll be a lot of debate about that in theory. In practice, however, that's exactly what those rolls are for.)

At least in previous editions there was an optional rule where you could get a little assistance from your Knowledge Skills in these types of situations. But in SR4? They don't do you a damn bit of good other than giving your character some flavor and roleplaying interest. And this is speaking as someone who loves Knowledge Skills and constantly gets frustrated at how expensive they are and how few free points you get for them.

The only time knowledge skills come close to being useful is for downtime situations. Such as trying to work out a plan or uncover a clue. But even then, those skills are a secondary if not tertiary assistance, and nothing you couldn't do with a few phone calls to an appropriate contact or looking information up on the Wikipedia Britanica via the Matrix.
WyldKnight
To make Knowledge Skills more useful in our games we allowed them to act as a dice pool modifier capped at +4 when used in conjunction with a similar skill. They were used just like a team work test with every hit made a bonus die. Other then that they were also useful in other more active situations. During a fight involving very tough unknown spirits (GM created) the team mage used his knowledge skills to recognize them and tell the rest of the team the best way to take them out was with fire. Thank god we had incendiary grenades. Another example was during a chase scene one of our team mates made a check to see if she recognized which gang controlled the territory we were in. Once we knew our TM sent out a spam message saying the vehicle after us was a rival gang making a show. Needless to say that got them off our tails. Sometimes using knowledge skills is all about being creative and just picking the right ones.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Knowledge skills are a useful GM tool. They facilitate the spread of background information and offering of hints. When a player is stumped about something he can look at his knowledge skill list and, if anything is remotely related to the issue at hand, make a roll and see if he can get some sweet GM mercy.
toturi
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Apr 13 2010, 02:16 PM) *
Knowledge skills are a useful GM tool. They facilitate the spread of background information and offering of hints. When a player is stumped about something he can look at his knowledge skill list and, if anything is remotely related to the issue at hand, make a roll and see if he can get some sweet GM mercy.

With GM mercy, even a memory test could suffice.
Udoshi
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Apr 13 2010, 12:03 AM) *
To make Knowledge Skills more useful in our games we allowed them to act as a dice pool modifier capped at +4 when used in conjunction with a similar skill.


We use a similiar mechanic in our games - if a player has the right knowledge skill(especially the right specialization) for atask, they get to roll their skill, count the hits, and use it as a positive dice pool bonus. Works out decently, and its a nice benefit for putting more emphasis on 'your character knows what the shit they're doing, and why they get paid to do it instead of the next guy'
Belvidere
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Apr 13 2010, 12:03 AM) *
To make Knowledge Skills more useful in our games we allowed them to act as a dice pool modifier capped at +4 when used in conjunction with a similar skill. They were used just like a team work test with every hit made a bonus die. Other then that they were also useful in other more active situations. During a fight involving very tough unknown spirits (GM created) the team mage used his knowledge skills to recognize them and tell the rest of the team the best way to take them out was with fire. Thank god we had incendiary grenades. Another example was during a chase scene one of our team mates made a check to see if she recognized which gang controlled the territory we were in. Once we knew our TM sent out a spam message saying the vehicle after us was a rival gang making a show. Needless to say that got them off our tails. Sometimes using knowledge skills is all about being creative and just picking the right ones.


I like that idea alot. And I think I may ask my GM if we can start using that in his game, and I'm sure I'm going to start using it in my game.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 13 2010, 02:15 AM) *
We use a similiar mechanic in our games - if a player has the right knowledge skill(especially the right specialization) for atask, they get to roll their skill, count the hits, and use it as a positive dice pool bonus. Works out decently, and its a nice benefit for putting more emphasis on 'your character knows what the shit they're doing, and why they get paid to do it instead of the next guy'

That's pretty much what the 3rd Edition rule I mentioned translated into. It is, quite literally, "teamwork" between your knowledge and your training.
WyldKnight
Then I don't understand why they didn't keep that. It makes perfect sense. On a semi related note does anyone know where that thread was that posted a huge list of possible knowledge skills? I lost it on my favs.
Ol' Scratch
Because the active skill should contain all the knowledge you need. The rule essentially just turns your knowledge skills into bonus dice for your active skills and encourages players to give up on general knowledge and instead focus on cheesy things like "How To Shoot Better" and "Advanced Spellcasting Techniques" type knowledge skills rather than "Seattle Safehouses" and the like.

It received a lot of criticism in 3rd Edition, which is probably why it didn't make it to the 4th.

Honestly, it would just be better to distinguish a difference between professional skills and non-professional skills. You'd have to introduce a mechanic to distinguish between the two, but it makes a lot more sense. A Mage would likely have something like Pistols as a non-professional skill, whereas a Street Samurai would have it as a professional one. Then you could just delegate general knowledge skills (as opposed to things like Chemistry) to a list that gives you a minor boost to your memory tests as the need arises or something.
Synner
For the record: The (optional) "Complementary Skill" rules were always intended to be included in a future GM-oriented book I had planned called Mr. Johnsons' Companion (along with a handful of other optional/advanced rules). Rob intentionally left them out of SR4, and I opted to keep it that way in SR4A.

My prefered option was that Complementary Skill Tests would allow Teamwork-style Tests where the hits on a character's Knowledge Skill Test added to a relevant Active dice pools in non-combat situations (the logic, besides game balance, being that you need time to consider how the complementary knowledge you possess might help you perform some task better while in Shadowrun combat trained instincts and reflexes trump careful consideration of the advantages of the ballistic spread patterns and muzzle velocity of an Ares Slivergun). Another alternative was to have Knowledge Skills add directly to Active skill dice pools like certain types of equipment (medkits for instance) again only in non-imediately stressful/non-combat conditions (obviously there are game balance issues with the latter option).

The exact rules were in early playtesting but the obvious downside with this Optional Rule, as Doc. Funk has mentioned, is that it encourages min-maxers and powergamers to focus on "practical" Knowledge skills that assist Active Skills, rather than more general and broader Knowledge Skills that represent "less practical" information/knowledge. This usually only becomes a problem in games where the gamemaster doesn't make a point to call for the use of such Knowledge Skills anyway.

Another advanced/optional rule that I had earmarked for playtesting (partially) addresses Doc Funkenstein's idea of professional and non-professional skills. The Optional Rule would stipulate that certain Active skills required certain Knowledge Skills. The rating of the relevant "professional" Knowledge Skill would then cap the number of hits possible in the Active skill test. Again this was in early playtesting when I left and subject to change.
Dumori
I with a 30bp quality you can get all knowledge skill at 3 from chargen. Turn your wild card naitnes in to the ones that reduce the cost of knowledge skill mt rating free to buy up to lvl 3 only costing time. As a TM you can summon tutor sprites and learn any knowledge skill you can think of.
Ryu
IŽd personally prefer a solution where Complementary skills added to the primary dp instead of there being another test. One could remove specialisations for Intuition, Logic and Charisma-based tests to compensate for the dicepool inflation, replacing them with a "half relevant knowledge skill" rule.

Charisma-linked skills add them for shared interests (if the topic comes up), professional knowledges apply if "playing the part", the other two should be easy to call. IŽm just out of an idea for Perception.

(And yeah. Nice to have you back, Synner!)
Ol' Scratch
I honestly preferred how games like White Wolf originally handled it. Where your skills functioned as both 'active' and 'knowledge' skills, with the difference being which attribute you rolled with it. For example, if you come across some new spell, you would make an Intuition + Spellcasting test to try and identify it or a Logic + Spellcasting test to see if you remembered reading any of any research similar to it. As opposed to using an overly specialized knowledge skill like Magic Background. And using such a mechanic, you don't have to come up with any weird ideas for how to incorporate your knowledge into a skill because the skill includes the knowledge to begin with.

That would actually cover a huge amount of existing knowledge skills. Underworld Politics would be included with Etiquette, Security Systems would be covered by Infiltration, etc. The only ones that would be a bit harder would be more academic knowledge skills like Anthropology and Physics. But even then, quite a few specializations within those fields could be covered. Firearms History and Ballistics, for example, could be handled by their Firearms skills.

Other fields of knowledge would be on a case-by-case basis for each character. Topics that aren't covered by their overall concept, background, or education would probably require access to the Data Search skill and/or specialized datasofts. Maybe even introduce a new mechanic labeled something like "Training" or "Profession" that includes a broad group of knowledge skills, but which have no bearing on anything that could be covered by real skills.

Just a random thought, really. That said, the Attribute + Skill method really was one of my most favorite mechanics. I was disappointed when I saw White Wolf move away from it due to a lack of really delving into the possibilities. But such is life.
RedFish
I recently started playing Shadowrun, and so far Knowledge: Gambling has ended up with me being approximately 20,000 nuyen.gif (10% interest rate each month wacko.gif) in debt to one of the other players, who is a Made Man with the Mafia, after I "accidentally" gambled away our Mechanic's car (in my defense he'd asked my compulsive gambling character to find a buyer for it).

It was the right choice if you look at the expected value of the gamble, but considering that I was already 30,000 nuyen.gif in debt to the Made Man's superiors, I am currently looking at monthly expenses of 15,000 nuyen.gif (High Lifestyle), and that's without any down payments on the loan.

That being said, Knowledge might not have helped me out in-game so far, but I'm thoroughly enjoying the experience, and Knowledge is hopefully going to be an increasing part of that.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Apr 13 2010, 05:20 AM) *
I suppose the GM could call for an addiction test (it is a kind of simsense, and arguably hot sim) the failure of which would simulate your personality crumbling a bit under the false memories, and being unable to function.

No kind of skillsoft requires hot sim.
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