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CountingGardens
So I just watched the movie "The 6th Day" with Arnold Schwarzenegger and I definitely want to make my campaign somewhat like the plot or exactly like the plot. My only question is, how is cloning viewed in the Shadowrun world? How big or small is religion really?
Warlordtheft
In general-it depends upon locale. Seattle, pretty much a bit player. Salt Lake is a Mormon Pinks Skin Reservation.

There is some info on it in Street Magic, as well as loose alliances. In the location specific material, it will mention if there is a significant religious presence (the Westphalia section in the German SOurce Book comes to mind).
Kimberly
My first post!!

Cloning like we do in present-day results in a living, breathing organism that is really only different from any other organism of its type by its conception. Not particularly exciting from a Shadowrun campaign perspective and definitely nothing like The Sixth Day.

Cloning like Sixth Day sorta exists. Check out the medical rules... you can pay for maintenance of a clone for stock parts in case you lose some of your own (due to violence, disease, bad habits, whatever). Obviously, these clones are vat grown to a state compatible with the intended recipient - it really doesn't help you to have an infant's kidney lying around when you're a full-grown adult in need of one.

I don't think they ever say that these vat-grown clones are more than just parts-farms... but you can take a few courses toward deciding why they are or aren't... and potential repercussions:

1. They're selectively grown so as not to have any higher brain function. This leaves room for the odd experiment here or there but leaves them pretty boring... until, of course, you consider that someone may start breeding these clones without selective engineering and training them for some dubious purpose.

2. They WOULD be intelligent individuals in their own right. Their intelligence is suppressed since the vat is essentially a sensory deprivation tank. Should a clone be released, it may develop an intelligence of its own. Obvious scenarios may exist where a clone is released for whatever reason... but it wouldn't be a clone of the original in any mental aspect (he'd walk by his original's wife and kids and truly wouldn't know them since he'd never met them). Still could be interesting for a PC to learn he has a double... with a full life of her own.

3. From more Shadowrunny/Earthdawny considerations, a pattern is a pattern. A clone could never be a copy of a person except in a superficial sense. Should a clone ever develop a pattern, they would have to be a completely different person... but I can imagine a person being geeked, their spirit being unwilling to leave this mortal coil, drifting across wherever it is they drift until they find the empty shell of their clone.... and it fits like a glove. Indeed, some crazy cybermancers/blood magicians may already be attempting (and perhaps succeeding) at this, already... the willingness of the dearly departed notwithstanding.

Obviously there are more ideas... those just popped in my head. However, I'd have to do some work to make it believable. I assume that the Immortals (pains the in the rumps that they may be) would back themselves up with multiple copies if they could... which might be sorta fun... having Dunkelzahn step out of a vat in 2075 and ask, "Where's Nadja." might make for an interesting cutscene...
Dr.Rockso
QUOTE (Kimberly @ Apr 14 2010, 10:04 AM) *
My first post!!

Cloning like we do in present-day results in a living, breathing organism that is really only different from any other organism of its type my its conception. Not particularly exciting from a Shadowrun campaign perspective and definitely nothing like The Sixth Day.

Cloning like Sixth Day sorta exists. Check out the medical rules... you can pay for maintenance of a clone for stock parts in case you lose some of your own (due to violence, disease, bad habits, whatever). Obviously, these clones are vat grown to a state compatible with the intended recipient - it really doesn't help you to have an infant's kidney lying around when you're a full-grown adult in need of one.

I don't think they ever say that these vat-grown clones are more than just parts-farms... but you can take a few courses toward deciding why it is:

1. They're selectively grown so as not to have any higher brain function. This leaves room for the odd experiment here or there but leaves them pretty boring... until, of course, you consider that someone may start breeding these clones without selective engineering and training them for some dubious purpose.

2. They WOULD be intelligent individuals in their own right. Their intelligence is suppressed since the vat is essentially a sensory deprivation tank. Should a clone be released, it may develop an intelligence of its own. Obvious scenarios may exist where a clone is released for whatever reason... but it wouldn't be a clone of the original in any mental aspect (he'd walk by his original's wife and kids and truly wouldn't know them since he'd never met them).

3. From more Shadowrunny/Earthdawny considerations, a pattern is a pattern. A clone could never be a copy of a person except in a superficial sense. Should they ever develop a pattern, they would have to be a completely different person... but I can imagine a person's spirit, being unwilling to leave this mortal coil, drifting across wherever it is they drift until they find the empty shell of a clone.... and it fits like a glove. Indeed, some cray cybermancers/blood magicians may already be attempting (and perhaps succeeding) at this, already... the willingness of the dearly departed notwithstanding.

Obviously there are more ideas... those just popped in my head. However, I'd have to do some work to make it believable. I assume that the Immortals (pains the in the rumps that they may be) would back themselves up with multiple copies if they could... which might be sorta fun... having Dunkelzahn step out of a vat in 2075 and ask, "Where's Nadja." might make for an interesting cutscene...


...
...
Get to the dragon if you want to live! silly.gif
Eratosthenes
Isn't there a quality akin to "Escaped Clone", which would indicate that not all of the clones are necessarily brain-impaired?
Westiex
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 15 2010, 01:35 AM) *
Isn't there a quality akin to "Escaped Clone", which would indicate that not all of the clones are necessarily brain-impaired?




QUOTE (Runners Companion, P97)
Escaped Clone
Cost: 5 BP
At some point, someone made a clone from stored DNA:
maybe your parents wanted their little girl back, maybe a rich
corper thought this was his ticket to immortality, or maybe a
megacorp grew a wimp for experimentation. Maybe she was accidentally
released, saved by a kind soul, or misplaced at a clinic.
Regardless, that clone eventually escaped into the world and realized
its full potential becoming the character.


There is more for the entry, but I thought this sufficed to indicate that yes it is possible to have a clone with higher brain functions.
Dumori
If force grown IE for part ect the brain messes up. Where as if grown at a normal rate the develop as a person mentally. In Aug iirc. Force grown clones are call wimps or such.
Bira
QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 14 2010, 12:52 PM) *
If force grown IE for part ect the brain messes up. Where as if grown at a normal rate the develop as a person mentally. In Aug iirc. Force grown clones are call wimps or such.


Cloning is not such a big deal, really. The big thing about The 6th Day is the memory transfer technology, which is something that resembles Eclipse Phase more than it does Shadowrun.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Bira @ Apr 14 2010, 11:29 AM) *
Cloning is not such a big deal, really. The big thing about The 6th Day is the memory transfer technology, which is something that resembles Eclipse Phase more than it does Shadowrun.


Full memory transfer is something not yet unleashed on the Shadowrun setting, though the building blocks are there. It's just a bit outside the technology level at this point. Programmable ASIST Biofeedback can implant memories on a person, but there's been no mention yet of technology that can capture a person's entire memory experience and implant that entire history as a whole.
NetWraith
What if they happen to implant a commlink into said clone and this clone happened to have the whole cyber package(arms, legs, etc...) and for fun lets say an e-ghost happened upon this blank commlink ... If it blieves it is someone who am I to say that it's not...
darthmord
QUOTE (Kimberly @ Apr 14 2010, 10:04 AM) *
Obvious scenarios may exist where a clone is released for whatever reason... but it wouldn't be a clone of the original in any mental aspect (he'd walk by his original's wife and kids and truly wouldn't know them since he'd never met them). Still could be interesting for a PC to learn he has a double... with a full life of her own.


Better yet, the clone is the runner and thinks he's the original and believes the original is the clone. Obviously, this is really 6th Day but would definitely fit in the SR Universe...
Drats
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 14 2010, 04:36 PM) *
(...)there's been no mention yet of technology that can capture a person's entire memory experience and implant that entire history as a whole.


The closest you could come in canon, I think, would be to rig up a person's clone body so that it operates like a Cyberdrone and then have that drone "rigged" by the E-ghost of that person- an interesting concept, IMO, but one that's got a complete lack of RAW-support. (I remember seeing material in the Unwired fluff that suggests that it might be feasible to actively endeavor to "become" a cyberghost, but not with any sort of reliability. Plus, cyberghosts can just get kind of lame if the GM doesn't handle them right.)

As to cloning, one thing that should be noted is that there's still something of a social stigma associated with it in the Sixth World, and it isn't native to holy roller types. Clones and cloning aren't trusted by the populace at large.

(Edit: Engaged in the arcane science of Grammarmancy.)
Demonseed Elite
Yeah, e-ghosts certainly appear to have a complete map of someone's memory, but no one is certain how e-ghosts are created or even what they are exactly, so it's not really at a point where it could be considered a reliable technology.
darthmord
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 14 2010, 02:27 PM) *
Yeah, e-ghosts certainly appear to have a complete map of someone's memory, but no one is certain how e-ghosts are created or even what they are exactly, so it's not really at a point where it could be considered a reliable technology.


Wasn't their original appearance during the same time frame as System Failure? I believe JackBNimble was implicated as having backed up people who were stuck jacked in when the Matrix crashed due to the worm.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (darthmord @ Apr 14 2010, 02:48 PM) *
Wasn't their original appearance during the same time frame as System Failure? I believe JackBNimble was implicated as having backed up people who were stuck jacked in when the Matrix crashed due to the worm.


That's a popular theory to explain them, yes. But no one's been able to prove it, I don't think, nor has anyone been able to replicate the effects.
Drats
There's actually some Jackpoint chatter in Unwired (Or Runner's Companion?) concerning a (rumored) online cult whose creed involves somehow preparing yourself for an existence as an electronic consciousness and then committing suicide while running in VR-- their head priest even attends the "Transition Ceremonies." The book has nothing to say about the feasibility of this, but they do say that the cult's dogma states that those who fail to make the transition didn't believe strongly enough-- which, provided that this bit of information isn't just urban legend, would imply a non-negligible success rate.

QUOTE ("Demonseed Elite")
Yeah, e-ghosts certainly appear to have a complete map of someone's memory(...)


Quite to the contrary, actually. By 4e canon, most of them are probably incomplete copies who may be missing large portions of their memory or even entire facets of their personalities. Some of them maintain only the basest sense of "self," retaining perhaps a few vague impressions of their former lives.

I imagine that the perfect ghosts could plausibly be attributed to JackBNimble, but that would just be an educated guess-- my familiarity with pre-4E storyline material either comes from the Sixth World Wiki or was gleaned contextually here on Dumpshock.
Yerameyahu
Actually, isn't there plenty of precedent for actual suicide cults with no 'success' rate? smile.gif
Sengir
Instead of becoming an E-Ghost, you one could just have his brain put into a CCU and then installed into a riggable clone body. OK, Augmentation says that the biodrone stuff does not work on speed-grown clones, but that still leaves enough options...
tagz
I suppose one could simply sim-rig and record their own life if they didn't want to go through the trouble of e-ghosts and whatnot. Memory size is a non-issue with SR so you can have someone just endlessly recording every little thing that happens in their own life.

You could then put some trodes on the clone and play it back about 50 times at a super high-high speed (we can have very memorable dreams that are created by the mind at extreme rates, faster then our waking mind can process if I recall correctly). This could effectively transfer all the experiences to the clone I believe.
Drats
It'd be a xerox of a xerox, though, and even though the Simrig would record memories and emotions while you kept it running, it wouldn't actually capture any of the thought processes or the internal monologue... things in that poor clone brain could easily get pretty messy and confusing. (Which, this being Shadowrun and all, would probably be a good thing, at least for the GM biggrin.gif )

Dumori
We need simrig 2.0 XD
tagz
QUOTE (Drats @ Apr 14 2010, 09:37 PM) *
It'd be a xerox of a xerox, though, and even though the Simrig would record memories and emotions while you kept it running, it wouldn't actually capture any of the thought processes or the internal monologue... things in that poor clone brain could easily get pretty messy and confusing. (Which, this being Shadowrun and all, would probably be a good thing, at least for the GM biggrin.gif )

Yep, that's one possibility. And I like it.

Another is that since it's a sim from the earliest childhood memories and that the brain chemistry is identical to the original that the clone's mind would want to make identical choices to the same situations, only since the playback is on a set track the decisions and thoughts only appear to matter and in-fact don't.
Sorta like take the Nature-Nurture argument but keep BOTH elements the same.
And this one opens up some fun possibilities too. Like what if the last 2 weeks of life were altered by a hacker? Well, suddenly in this clone's "life" his decisions suddenly stop changing things and the clone sees things as he as though isn't in control of himself/herself. Or maybe a hiccup in the video makes a little mistake in the recording process and it puts the clone into this state at an "early" age. The possibilities are endless.
Pepsi Jedi
I think it's in Augmentation that it really talks about the wimps and how.... frequent it's done now. There's also implication that 'Just growing an ARM or just an EYE is really hard and expensive. It's much cheeper to force grow the entire thing and hack out what you need."

Which begs the question.. what's done with the rest? lol

Augmentation also goes into the universal organ donner guy, (( Who's exploitation and abuse is taken from a real life guy that had singular cells that were abnormal. No not full grown organs making billions of dollars over years but that __WAS__ Taken from a poor guy that got ripped off IRL much like he did))

They also say, with out quite SAYING it.. that the mega corps have to have like.... Matrix Like forrests of human bodies based off that poor guys' cells. Just ... hanging or laying around somewhere mindless waitng to be hacked into pieces. Just 100s or 1000s of clones of that ONE GUY used as parts. lol

That's before they even touch the clones of the ultra rich that they keep on file (( even some Doc Wagon have one or two on reserve for parts if needed))

It's presented as kinda bright and bubbly "Look what we can do!" sort of thing..

But can you imagine doing a run on a werehouse in the barrens and find it full of ... 5,000 living, BREATHING, twitching clone body's onracks with medical monitors on them... stretching row after row after row.....
Harbin
Thanks for the nightmare fuel. :[


That reminds me, if someone took Type O System, feasibly, could they be selling samples of their skin to corps and stuff? Would make for an interesting basis if a runner had sold samples and then the corps had made clones for experimentation, then the runner gets injured and needs parts/the clone escapes and goes to try find the originator to get them to help.
Pepsi Jedi
If you did that, the corp would no doubt copyright or trademark your cells and then... of course.. with corp law... be able to confiscate the base materials as being owned by them.

Meaning you.

Meaning.... Oh...... Drek!
tagz
I love it. They just show up one day and tazzer you. Anyone asks them what they think they're doing and they just say "Recovering stolen/lost property. This here is just an escaped clone. Got the documents to prove it too."
Harbin
Wow, I'll have to bring this into a campaign, this is a great idea.
Pepsi Jedi
And how could you possibly prove you're infact.. not? lol THAT's the scary part.
Dumori
get infected by some shit quick XD. then you can still take type-o but you wouldn't be wanted XD
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 14 2010, 05:35 PM) *
Isn't there a quality akin to "Escaped Clone", which would indicate that not all of the clones are necessarily brain-impaired?


Yes, it is. One of the RC freelancers once asked me, what I'd like to see in RC and I said "clones". I have no idea if I was the only 'clone fan', though.

---

Concerning the topic of "mind transfer", one could use a variation of cybermancy. If you can force the soul back into the body, why not into a cloned body?
Oehler the Black
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Apr 14 2010, 06:14 PM) *
Concerning the topic of "mind transfer", one could use a variation of cybermancy. If you can force the soul back into the body, why not into a cloned body?

Couldn't one use the Vessel Trading power to do this RAW? Say you make a living vessel either out of an existing person or a clone, you bind the free spirit into the vessel, coerce it into using the trading power on the subject and boom! Instant 'soul-swap.'
Synner
As of 2070 "standard" cloning of metahumans in the Sixth World is associated with the force-growth of a body from DNA. However, while muscles, bones and even the general nervous system can be stimulated during growth to produce healthy viable organ replacements, the metahuman brain poses a problem that scientists have yet to overcome.

Here is why cloning and transfer of conscienceness are seperate issues:

Shadowrun (per current neuroscience) assumes that your higher consciousness - the collective thoughts, experiences, cognition, trained instincts, foibles, peculiarities, emotions, dreams, subconscious, etc, that make you "you" - resides (at least in part) in the brain. However, the maturing brain (specifically its neural pathways and clusters) develops and is shaped not only by your ongoing experiences as you grow but by your evolving perception of those experiences and the internal associations you make with them (ie. discovering the scent of a particular orchid is a different experience/is "filed" differently if you smell it after eating a spicy and fragrant Indian Balti than it is if you've stepped cleanwashed from a shower). These connections are therefore extremely difficult to reproduce at all, let alone while you're maturing at increased speed in a vat of nutrients. Even experiencing a simsense recording of your entire life will not yield the same end results (as people have pointed out there is plenty missing from a simsense experience). What this means is that what comes out of the vat will be a genetic clone of you, but it won't be you and ultimately it won't think like you. For most practical uses of cloning technology this doesn't matter, which is why Shadowrun has blank-slate "wimps."
Even if the clone isn't force grown and matures at a normal rate the problem remains (though there's little reason to go this route at all, if all the medcorp needs is a donor-in-a-can a force-grown one is the quicker solution).

There are, however, a couple of canon examples of (apparent) genetic and consciousness/memory cloning (I like to call these exceptions dopplegangers to distinguish them from other types of clones). You can also be sure one megacorp or another is exploring the various possibilities discussed in this thread for transfer-of-consciousness/cloning as cutting edge research (the best known canon example is Universal Omnitech under Roxborough for obvious reasons). This is however SOTA research and generally should be considered unavailable outside plot devices. Most people in the Sixth World and even in the shadows would consider workable dopplegangers urban myths.

All that said the Quality Escaped Clone is intentionally vague. It could mean that you're a wimp who broke out/was stolen from a lab at an early stage and developed independently. It could mean you're a normal growth clone who was intentionally left to mature naturally (maybe in the hopes that some future development will let the original you consciousness transfer into your younger body at a later date). Or you may be one of those rare dopplegangers. Either way, the original you is still out there and you are technically (under most corporate legal systems at least) his/her property.
ClemulusRex
Speaking of "Type-O System" and "escaped clone", I had a character idea that revolved around the two qualities and was looking for some advice as to how to iron out a few details. Initially, I was looking at creating the "all bioware Samurai/Razorgirl", and when I picked up the RC not too long ago, I thought that the "escaped clone" quality would be a cool way of rationalizing the character having a "type-o" system.

I figured that the character's escape would be the result of a botched run on a cloning facility by some kind of militant radical group like GenePeace or somesuch. Cloning tanks get burst in the ensuing firefight and one of the rads notices a flicker of recognition and even a pleading look in the clone's eyes. In an impulsive fit of conscience, he throws the girl over his shoulder and shoots his way out. Being a social/political radical, the character's rescuer has maybe a higher level of ethics (skewed, though they may be) for someone of the Sixth World and abides by the adage of "remaining responsible for the life you saved" and tries to take care of her initially and help her adjust.

So, I really liked the idea of the character starting off as sort of a tabula rasa. Maybe say it's a year or so after her rescue when the game begins and she's been hungrily devouring as much culture, media, and training chips as she can get her hands on. Maybe that's not a feasible amount of time for someone to become functional, but I would like to play up the "search for identity" during actual gameplay. I even thought it would be a neat detail to have her experimenting with personafix BTLs as a way of instilling herself with personality artificially. She might still be very unsure of herself normally, but when she needs to wear the skin of a hardened 'Runner, she slaps some nanopaste trodes onto a BTL and becomes the tough-as-nails action chick she watches on the trid.

Also, I figured that the best way to rationalize the nuyen.gif 200k+ in bioware she's starting with is to say that maybe it was already inside of her--she was being grown to harvest it. The problem I run into here, is that I actually like the idea of the original genetic donor having a little more of a personal investment in finding her, like the "bid for immortality" example under the EC quality. Also, being stuffed with bioware would imply that she's probably a forced-growth clone, rendering her unable to gain self-awareness. Maybe the donor wanted a younger, bioware-stuffed body to get transferred into (assuming there was some plot reason for that being possible)?

Thoughts? Ideas? (Sorry that was kind of long.)
Synner
Maybe the clone was an experiment or a long term investment. Possibly the very rich DNA donor saw the development of ASSIST biofeedback technology in the 2050's as a harbinger of consciousness transfer technologies. Slow-growth of a younger body (one with all the upgrades the original already possesses) was her way of capitalizing on what she believes is an imminent breakthrough (maybe she owns or runs part of a corp developing just that technology) - sort of like people who have themselves cryonically frozen to be revived when the technology allows.
ClemulusRex
QUOTE (Synner @ May 7 2010, 01:51 AM) *
Maybe the clone was an experiment or a long term investment. Possibly the very rich DNA donor saw the development of ASSIST biofeedback technology in the 2050's as a harbinger of consciousness transfer technologies. Slow-growth of a younger body (one with all the upgrades the original already possesses) was her way of capitalizing on what she believes is an imminent breakthrough (maybe she owns or runs part of a corp developing just that technology) - sort of like people who have themselves cryonically frozen to be revived when the technology allows.


Cool, yeah. That works.

What about the consciousness/skill development angle? Do you think that a year is too little an amount of time to get the character functional if she was basically pounding down training softs and trideo? Hmmm. Maybe I'm starting to answer that for myself. Maybe she received some kind of baseline education along with some corporate indoctrination while still in the tubes. Perhaps the engineers figured that the brain still needed enough stimulation and growth in order to eventually accept a consciousness transfer? Now, with little emotional development, the recently freed character is "acting out" and latching on to the "street-tough chica" cliche/stereotype in direct opposition to whatever corporate propaganda that "mommy" was feeding her.

Thanks, Synner. I knew I just needed a kick in the ol' synapses.
Dumori
Remeber the nanotech flash back system can save your memorys and load other peoples thus it could be used with soem heavy duty mind whipeing shit to upload your mind in to a new clone would be all SOTA ect plus its a usefull implant ish.
Sengir
QUOTE (ClemulusRex @ May 7 2010, 02:36 AM) *
Do you think that a year is too little an amount of time to get the character functional if she was basically pounding down training softs and trideo?

If the character spent all that time in sensory deprivation inside a vat she will be little more than a vegetable, some sort of socialization in a corp-controlled facility or maybe an UV host is definitely a must. Not just for education in the classical sense, but also the very basics like speech or movement
Regarding the growth times, the character could simply be an Ork or Troll and thus mature 30% faster than a normal human.
Banaticus
QUOTE (ClemulusRex @ May 6 2010, 04:26 PM) *
I figured that the character's escape would be the result of a botched run on a cloning facility by some kind of militant radical group like GenePeace or somesuch. Cloning tanks get burst in the ensuing firefight and one of the rads notices a flicker of recognition and even a pleading look in the clone's eyes. In an impulsive fit of conscience, he throws the girl over his shoulder and shoots his way out. Being a social/political radical, the character's rescuer has maybe a higher level of ethics (skewed, though they may be) for someone of the Sixth World and abides by the adage of "remaining responsible for the life you saved" and tries to take care of her initially and help her adjust.

Either that or one of the runners who busted up the clone place got into running precisely because he didn't value his life after his only child died. Now he has a "new child" and gets to restart his life (all while staying out of the corp's reach that's trying to hunt their property back down). I like this concept, I think I'll do something with it.
ClemulusRex
QUOTE (Dumori @ May 7 2010, 03:27 PM) *
Remeber the nanotech flash back system can save your memorys and load other peoples thus it could be used with soem heavy duty mind whipeing shit to upload your mind in to a new clone would be all SOTA ect plus its a usefull implant ish.


Hmm. I had forgotten about the flash back nano. Not true consciousness transfer, but it might be useful in explaining how the clone character became socialized and functional. Or it could be a neat plot point later on down the road where the character gets a hold of the stored memories of the original donor...or gets them forcibly implanted by the donor. Muahahaha!
ClemulusRex
QUOTE (Sengir @ May 7 2010, 04:41 PM) *
If the character spent all that time in sensory deprivation inside a vat she will be little more than a vegetable, some sort of socialization in a corp-controlled facility or maybe an UV host is definitely a must. Not just for education in the classical sense, but also the very basics like speech or movement
Regarding the growth times, the character could simply be an Ork or Troll and thus mature 30% faster than a normal human.


I guess that was sort of what I was trying to hash out. I liked the idea of the character sort of starting mostly from scratch when rescued from the tubes, but I didn't want more than a year or two between that and the character being "on camera." I wanted to find some balance point where the character had full motor, cognitive, and speech skills but was still flailing around trying to figure out who she was.
ClemulusRex
QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 8 2010, 01:40 AM) *
Either that or one of the runners who busted up the clone place got into running precisely because he didn't value his life after his only child died. Now he has a "new child" and gets to restart his life (all while staying out of the corp's reach that's trying to hunt their property back down). I like this concept, I think I'll do something with it.


Oooh. I like that. If you don't mind, I might toy with that one myself.
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