By RAW, isn't adding +1 DV from Critical Strike more effective than adding -1 AV from Penetrating Strike? They both cost the same amount of power points, so I don't see the reasoning.

You can have them both, if you reach the max. of critical strike. This way they are pretty effective toghether. Besides elemental strike is more effective at armor reduction (especially at higher armor ratings) but penetrating strike is more stealthy.

Not necessarily. The -1AP could be the difference between doing Stun damage and Physical damage (or no damage at all in the case of Hardened Armor).

I'd usually rather have the -1 AV myself. But, yeah, so they cost the same and give close to the same benefit. Not sure I see the issue.

I get that especially if you have already maxed critical strike, but by pure crunching you'd be "wasting" .75 points with Penetrating Strike 3 since those points aren't as valuable as the critical strike levels.

Practically only if you already maxed out critical strike, it would make sense.

Out of curiosity, why do you keep saying that AP isn't as valuable as DV? The only time I can see that being true is when dealing with unarmoed opponents or gross amounts of AP. But against, say, a very pedestrian Armor Jacket and using even APDS ammo in a heavy pistol, you'd need Penetrating Strike 4 before you'd see a wasted point.

That's not true, +1 DV count against armor just as well as -1AP, and has the added benefit of actually increasing the damage. That's why EX-Ex pre-errata was always better than APD (at least for pure damage and armor penetration).

1 AP is generally not as good as 1 DV unless you are dealing with Hardened Armor.

On a soak roll, on average, you need to take away 3 dice (-3AP) to take away one success. Adding just 1 DV is effectively the same as -3AP for most things - which makes 1 DV better than -1AP or -2AP in most cases.

Only when dealing with hardened armor does AP really shine over DV.

Take a Force 6 spirit and a Ares Predator. The spirit has 12 points of hardened armor.. which means to hurt it you need to do 13 DV. The base damage is 5P with -1 AP.

Now, in most cases Ex rounds and AP rounds are functionally the same... but not here.
With EX rounds you get +1DV and -1AP meaning each shot is 6P with -2AP... you would need 5 net hits to hurt the spirit.
With AP rounds you get -4AP meaning each shot is 5P with -5AP... you would only need 3 net hits to hurt the spirit.

Since each success is, on average, 3 dice the person with the EX rounds would need about 6 more dice in their dice pool to be as successful as the guy with AP rounds.

AP is also better if the user is stacking armor (like a possessed mage).

Ah, I got ya. I was looking at things from a weird angle. Thanks for clearing it up.

The sum of all applicable armor items is modified by AP so stacking does not matter.

Ahh... I thought that AP worked against worn armor and hardened armor.

Wouldn't this be moot, as -4 AP as compared to +1 DV/-1 AP makes the difference through the net -2 AP? (Point being that the only reason it's better is because the AP rounds take off more, whereas the EX-ex rounds don't actually do as much.)

Its not moot in relation to Hardened Armor, as explained above, since the base DV of the attack must exceed the armor value of Hardened Armor to do any damage at all. In cases like that, -4 AV is much more effective than +1DV/-1AV.

Sure -4AV can be better than +1DV and -1AP, but on a point by point basis like in critical strike vs penetrating strike, the +1 DV is always better. In ammo yeah they have set balanced benefits every -3AP=+1DV roughly, which is better is situational. For these adept powers penetrating strike is just sucky if you haven't maced critical strike yet. And even then it is of dubious benefit given the existing power elemental strike. (OT but I wish more of these powers were universal in use and not just unarmed combat, I get not for guns, but elemental strike on melee weapons, maybe even thrown and bows, the same for penetrating and critical strike.(they do have power throw, just don't see the need for the 3DV cap, yes you can build monstrosities but I'd like to give something more to the human thrower instead of almost having being a strong race a requirement, maybe an overall DV cap like x2,1.5 magic instead of a 3DV cap)

No because under most circumstances 1 DV > -1 AP
Under most circumstances 1 DV = -3 AP

So, when not dealing with something like Hardened Armor EX rounds are mathematically as good as APDS rounds.

Not exactly. Keep in mind that one additional damage/hit on the attack is generally(on average, since hits are 5-6 on d6), worth three on the defense. Here's why.

When you attack, you roll your dice. Net hits add to damage. Say its a melee attack, using an improvised weapon at p=1/2 strength, on a troll, we'll be generous and assume its 7, which rounds up from 3.5 to 4. So, 4P. One net hit to actually land the blow raises that to 5P(if its not dodged). On the defense, they get a chance to reduce net hits to zero, before moving onto soaking damage. In both cases, the defender rolls something, whether its reaction or armor, and each hit reduces the bad effects.

If your damage goes up by 1, and you still manage to hit, then your opponent needs 3 more dice(on average) on the defense test to get rid of that +1.


So yes. Critical strike is free lunch. Its a matter of scale, how much bp/karma/powerpoints you're willing to invest to be good at something. You don't -need- penetrating strike, but it can help tip the odds in your favor - especially against barriers and when combined with shattering blow for when you just need to punch rigger coccoons in half.

Mnn smashing rigger cocoons.

So if you have to 1/2 armor powers what happens? My book is not near me but don't both elemental strike and smashing blow perform a 1/2 armor effect. So if you are smashing down a tree or whatever else inanimate object, your hands are wrapped in flames and you gather your energy for a smashing blow what happens?(they may have a sentence that says they don't work together, but then why get smashing blow?)

Why get an Ares Predator when you can get a Colt Manhunter? Why wear an Armor Vest when you can wear a Lined Coat? Why play a Hermetic Mage when you can play a Rat Shaman? Why have any options at all?

In most cases the other option is close enough for government work. Smashing blow is limited in what it works on and costs significantly more it would not be close enough for government work.

But my memory was off anyways smashing blow doubles the base DV of your attack, and they work together.

Still I wonder what happens if there are two 1/2 AP items. I can't think of any examples, so they were probably careful to make sure it never happened.

I'm assuming consecutive application if that situation acures.

The second effect wouldn't do anything. Both effects cut the target's Ballistic or Impact armor in half. It doesn't affect the effect of another affect. If the target has Armor 10, both effects would reduce that to 5. Even if there were a dozen such effects occurring at once, it would still only reduce the target's armor to 5.

Good point.

Smashing blow doubles DV, Elemental Strike halves armor. Technically they work together, except that attacks to destroy barriers ignore AP completely. I can't think of a situation in which both effects apply to the same attack.