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Patrick Goodman
Okay, in the spirit of my recent bout of cleaning things out and bringing them to the public, I've found a piece of web fiction that Elissa Carey and I wrote a number of years back in support of Year of the Comet. Things conspired against us and it never got published, but I recently rediscovered it. I then cleaned it up a little bit, received authorial permission from Elissa to release it, and, well, here it is.

Enjoy. Questions, comments, or criticisms, please leave them here...but be polite about it, if you please.
Kerenshara
Inspirational idea. Given what's going on at CGL, I doubt we'll see much new fiction in the immediate future (and I haven't heard anything on the DS Mag in a while either). I wonder if I should try to clean up some of what I've been playing with and just toss it up myself.
Patrick Goodman
I do what I can; I'm basically a positive person, or at least I try to be. My typical response to a lot of crap flying through the air is to find positive things to do in order to make that crap go away. Witness the Infected height/weight thread, and this one. In the not too distant future, I'm going to actually put that proposal up for discussion like I said I would back in the CGL Spec Pt. 3 thread; I've just had other stuff going on.
Kerenshara
I don't have anything like web-hosting that would stand up to people downloading my prose. You wouldn't have space available, would you? For all my pretentions of wanting to make money from writing, I just love to write, especially for the 6th World, and to share it with people.
Patrick Goodman
Drop me a PM or an email; I'm sure we can work something out.

That said: You haven't told me if you like it or not. wink.gif
Kerenshara
I got just far enough in to realize what I was looking at. Sadly, I'm stealing time between tasks at work, so I can't actually just sit and take my time reading it.

I'm thinking printing the thing out and reading it on "lunch" when I can be relatively certain Management won't jander by and drop something in my lap or a junior co-worker won't materialize out of the Astral with a question or problem that needs my urgent attention.
LurkerOutThere
Hmmmmmm a quandary, I really despise the subject matter the story isn't bad in spite of that but it might have worked better as a straight peace of fiction or re-telling without the shadowtalk interplay. The immortal elf hour also snaps my suspension of disbelief that they'd let their VR meetings be violated twice.

I'm trying not to be too harsh Patrick and please understand that most of my annoyance is with the storyline choices themselves but so much this is "LOOKIT HOW IMPORTANT GHOST WALKER IS" a little later "Look at all the pople who are scared of ghost walker" it's the Worf affect but done with immortal elves.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 17 2010, 01:37 PM) *
Hmmmmmm a quandary,

We aim to please.
QUOTE
I really despise the subject matter the story isn't bad in spite of that but it might have worked better as a straight peace of fiction or re-telling without the shadowtalk interplay. The immortal elf hour also snaps my suspension of disbelief that they'd let their VR meetings be violated twice.

I don't tend to agree, obviously; I rather like "Beyond the Veil" and had other plans for things in that vein had things gone differently for me in life.

As for the IE/dragon convo being violated twice: It had already happened twice before, in Aztlan and in Dunkelzahn's Will. Then it took whoever was doing it (and we don't know who it is, or why, though I personally suspect an inside job, with a proto-AI on the team doing it) another five or six years to penetrate again. I don't think it's too often...your mileage, obviously, varies from my own. It's not canon, so it's not something you have to worry about.

It can be taken for granted that they don't like it, but what are you/they going to do? Sometimes there's just someone better than you out there.
QUOTE
I'm trying not to be too harsh Patrick and please understand that most of my annoyance is with the storyline choices themselves but so much this is "LOOKIT HOW IMPORTANT GHOST WALKER IS" a little later "Look at all the pople who are scared of ghost walker" it's the Worf affect but done with immortal elves.

The Worf effect? I've been a Star Trek fan for my entire life, and I guess I've managed to dodge this one. What's the Worf effect?

And that said...there was a lot that was planned for Ghostwalker, Year of the Comet, and Survival of the Fittest that didn't come to fruition. Some of that would have made Ghostwalker a lot more mysterious and a lot more worthy of being feared. As it was, there was a lot of leaking of information by people violating their NDAs. there were product plan changes, whole lines of books never appeared because FASA closed and FanPro took over. Sad state of affairs.

Yeah, it was supposed to be "Look how scary Ghostwalker is." He was supposed to be. Doesn't work as well 10 years on, I suppose, but that's what we've got. I'm sorry you don't like the piece, but I've learned that not everybody likes everything. Who knew?
Ol' Scratch
The Worf Effect represents a villain's demonstration of its power by picking up the biggest, baddest good guy around and throwing him around just to show how much of a badass he really is. In Star Trek: The Next Generation, that was often Worf.
LurkerOutThere
True my use of it may not have been entirely accurate but that is the general gist, Patrick I'm not beating up on your work just for the sake of doing so, my own biases against IE/GD's and Ghostwalker in particular aside I wanted to give my actual thoughts after reading it.
Patrick Goodman
And I'm happy to hear them; you're civil about it. I don't consider what you're doing bashing, FWIW. I just found myself in the slightly odd position of defending artistic choices Elissa and I made eight or nine years ago. Same defense I would have to make back then, too, so it's not a big deal.

And GW had pretty much used everyone in Denver as a rag doll in the weeks leading up to this press conference we covered, so pretty much everyone got to be Worf somewhere along the line. Why not the IEs?

When I first came up with the story, I wanted to cover the Denver/GW thing from a different angle and do a little foreshadowing of some ideas for Survival of the Fittest when it was a multi-product story arc and not just a single book. I showed it to Elissa because she'd done a lot of the GW stuff in Year of the Comet, and she did a lot of nice things with the draft, so we bounced it back and forth for a while.

The bit about who Ghostwalker really is/was wasn't ever supposed to be made public, so we were able at the time to make a few really off-the-beaten-path idea references, and if they didn't pan out...well, red herrings are fun, too.
fistandantilus4.0
I like Earthdawn, so not surprisingly, I like the connections drawn. I would have liked to see more of GW, because it seemed to me as if he came in with a big bang, and then mostly sat there. You had Survival of the Fittest, but that quickly became The Hestaby Show, and stole some of the fire from GW, even though he was the one that kicked it off. So yeah, I like seeing more of him. Also like the intro of Nicholas Whitebird, although I would have liked to see more of him. He was always interesting to me.
Nemo
That Story would identify Hecate as Alachia. I think, the "Behinde the Veil" - episode needs a work-over. Some of the participants sound out of Charakter.
fistandantilus4.0
Alachia was supposed to be Hecate because of posting from IIRC Loose Alliances and her conversation with Elijah. Were some of the others like Guardian, Jungle cat, or Usmondo ever clearly established?
fistandantilus4.0
Alachia was supposed to be Hecate because of posting from IIRC Loose Alliances and her conversation with Elijah. Were some of the others like Guardian, Jungle cat, or Usmondo ever clearly established?
Angelone
I liked it, although I only have a few Earthdawn books so I don't quite get the whole connection thing. I liked the fact that it was a press conference and peoples reaction to it.

Who or what is "the Hunter"?
fistandantilus4.0
I think that would be Verjigorm, the Hunter of Great Dragons. An Earthdawn reference, so it makes sense that crew would be talking about it. He/it had a habit of corrupting dragons to his/its purpose.
Patrick Goodman
Guardian was my creation, and he still might show up. I'd hate to spoil anything that I might actually get to use, so I think I'll refrain from discussing him at this point in time.

Hecate has been identified as Alachia for...well, for a long time. I think we'd (at least behind the scenes) determined that even before Elissa and I came up with this. (The bit about her flower garden, by the way, was Elissa's, and I thought it was just a perfect touch, doubly so when I consider the lame crap I'd had in there in the first draft. Elissa's contributions made this a much better piece, IMO.)

The Hunter...that was another bit that Elissa and I came up with, trying to come up with some sort of mythology to cover why GW had been away so long. And to put the Tirs on notice, too. There's an outside chance that this, too, might get to see the light of day one of these days, so I think I'll stop there.
Patrick Goodman
No, I can safely say that it (the Hunter) wasn't Verjigorm, F4. Thanks for playing, though.
hermit
Nice. Thanks for sharing!
KnightRunner
Thank you for sharing Patrick. I also enjoy SR fiction, even if was never entered into canon.

As for the IE conversations..... I always thought that it would be fun to see a conspiracy theoreticians article, where nutjobs tried to explain these "strange" conversation. Sometimes accidentally get them right, but not enough for the theories to hang together.
hermit
Oh yes, that would be real fun to write, I imagine - or read, for plebeians like myself.

A conversation like the free forum of Tir Tairngire book (whioch, on a side note, DOES deal with conspiracy theories around elves and dragons), part of a "misc. from JackPoint" book, maybe, in the spirit of NAGRL?
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 17 2010, 01:22 PM) *
That said: You haven't told me if you like it or not. wink.gif

Well, first off, the events referenced herein are from a period of time when I was separated from the 6th World's latest developments by lack of proximity (Amazon wasn't around and the local gamestores were nigh-useless) and lack of resources (when opportunity presented itself, I wound up without the means to secure the items). It is a hole I never got around to fully repairing, sadly, so I am having to watch from the perspective of the second- and third-hand distilations included in the later products.

Second, I never really got into EarthDawn. Lots of reasons, but I just never did, so I'm probably missing a drekload of context.

That being said, it was very interesting, and I felt, well crafted. It was a compelling story, for me. Unfortunately, your formatting choices made it unnecessarily difficult to keep things separated. Honest to [diety], I would have killed for different colors to keep descriptives, inserted commentary, actual dialog and naration separate. A few times I had to "double back" and that spoiled some of the effect I think you were aiming for.

Seriously, overall I like it a great deal. As you said, it DOES delve a bit into one of two "nether" times in the 6th World timeline. (They interestingly correspond with license hand-offs.) I especially liked the feel of the interplay between the reporter and the cameraperson: I really did feel there were two genuine slags freezing their hoops off and worried for their lives. Ok, the whole prayer thing seemed a bit heavy handed, but I think that was a side effect of how you chose/had to format the descriptives, but the attendant dialog was very supportive, so it wasn't a complete negative. The second part was a lot less gripping for me, I think, because of my shortcomings in some of the deep lore and context, but it felt a lot more like a chat-board flame-fest than a meeting between powerful individuals who have known each other for millenia. Again, I got your narative point, but the thing could use a LOT of re-work to get the full punch I think you were aiming for.

A+ for effort, A for style, A for storytelling generally, overall effect on the first section I'd give a B- due to the "format" issues you got stuck with, otherwise I'd give it an A-. Second part, as presented, D+; You'd have lost people who hadn't ever heard of the 6th World utterly. I think you've got a really great story kernel there, but the second half needs a lot of work before it's going to be up in the same league as the first.

You asked for honest input. That's mine. Your actual kilometerage will vary greatly, of course. I actually would like to see more of the first part, so that should tell you something. (Seemed a little abruptly cut-off, at least from what I'd hope for. I'm not talking about GW's departure; He's a GREAT Dragon, so as they say "anywhere he wants". A bit more of the press conference from his proxy, on the other hand, would have been pretty wiz.)

That sort of what you were looking for?
hermit
QUOTE
it felt a lot more like a chat-board flame-fest than a meeting between powerful individuals who have known each other for millenia.

The fun thing about SR immortals is, though, they actually ae like this. Except for some very rare and usually dead examples, most of the immortals, particularily the non-dragons, tend to be petty, single-minded, selfish and utterly lacking vision. They're entangled in a complex webs of petty and not so petty likes and dislikes towards one another, and playing a game of power that often has disasterous consequences.

In a book you might want to read (Worlds without end, one part of a three-parter trilogy witht he first two being set in Earthdawn), we get to see things from the inside of one, and it's one of the better examples of a biased and unreliable narrator I know (not intending to spoiler). And Aina is one of the less fucked up immortal elves.

The book should be available at a reasonable price via Amazon's secondhand offers, as should be the books missing in your collection. It's how I've been completing mine for some time now. You can even find rare things like the first matrix book there.

Angelone
Anyone want to shed any light on where Ghostwalker was. I know it was the metaplanes and he buzzed by some fixers who's name I forgot's (Mother?) personal hellplane. He brought the shedim with him so it wasn't the land of milk and honey. Although they could have come from said hellplane. How'd he get here? why was he there? Was he banished for eatting one too many burritos? twirl.gif minds want to know.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Apr 17 2010, 04:26 PM) *
That being said, it was very interesting, and I felt, well crafted. It was a compelling story, for me. Unfortunately, your formatting choices made it unnecessarily difficult to keep things separated. Honest to [diety], I would have killed for different colors to keep descriptives, inserted commentary, actual dialog and naration separate. A few times I had to "double back" and that spoiled some of the effect I think you were aiming for.

Well, that was the way these sorts of things were handled before we did this. We picked up all the various formatting things either from the template we used, or from previous books. Video transcripts were handled in other books before we did that, so we were kind of stuck with how the game world handled that sort of thing.

So yeah, we were kinda saddled with that. That said, I just did a quick PDF of the thing; there's nothing that says I can't go in and do a little color-coding to handle internal edit memos and stuff like that. The beauty of electronic media and the fact that it can be easily and quickly fixed.

Most of my stuff is sustantially more traditional in format. One of these days you might even get to see some of it.

QUOTE
The second part was a lot less gripping for me, I think, because of my shortcomings in some of the deep lore and context, but it felt a lot more like a chat-board flame-fest than a meeting between powerful individuals who have known each other for millenia. Again, I got your narative point, but the thing could use a LOT of re-work to get the full punch I think you were aiming for.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one; I think it came out pretty much spot-on how I wanted it to. Not having some of the background didn't help you there, I fear.

As far as it being a chat-board flamefest...well, that's how these guys get along, for the most part. This whole "mass communications" idea and the Matrix is all pretty amusing and new to them, and I think this comes across in how they treat it. The other episodes of Beyond the Veil that have appeared in canon have read a lot like that, too. Probably not quite as chatty in places, but the overall feel of it is, at least IMO, pretty right.
QUOTE
You asked for honest input. That's mine.

And you were civil about it, too! That's my big thing there.
QUOTE
I actually would like to see more of the first part, so that should tell you something. (Seemed a little abruptly cut-off, at least from what I'd hope for. ... A bit more of the press conference from his proxy, on the other hand, would have been pretty wiz.)

Well, a lot of the aftermath of the press conference was, in fact, covered in Year of the Comet. This was never meant as the whole story there; it was just another way of looking at events that were covered elsewhere in the book. That's something that the nine years or so since YotC came out make difficult for this particular piece: Some, if not all, of the context is mostly gone now, and some of the stuff that I would have loved to have seen come out later just wasn't to be, so some of the stuff we're alluding to never happened.
QUOTE
That sort of what you were looking for?

More, in fact, than I'd hoped for. Thanks!
hermit
QUOTE
He brought the shedim with him so it wasn't the land of milk and honey.

The shedim being Horrors, it probably wasn't.

QUOTE
How'd he get here? why was he there?

He was imprisoned and freed by an unwitting Talon who really only wanted to slay his own personal nemesis. Grandmother wanted him to do this quest, IIRC, though, which throws up all kinds of interesting questions about who/what she really is.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Angelone @ Apr 17 2010, 04:40 PM) *
Anyone want to shed any light on where Ghostwalker was. I know it was the metaplanes and he buzzed by some fixers who's name I forgot's (Mother?) personal hellplane. He brought the shedim with him so it wasn't the land of milk and honey. Although they could have come from said hellplane. How'd he get here? why was he there? Was he banished for eatting one too many burritos? twirl.gif minds want to know.

I don't think there's necessarily a whole lot of canon info on this particular subject. I know that with Rob's re-focus on street-level stuff (a move I was mildly opposed to, but they weren't asking me), there wasn't a lot of emphasis placed on finding any answers, either.

Perhaps some of the others have more concrete information. If they do, I'd sure love a pointer or two myself, because I'm thinking about addressing some of these questions one of these days.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 17 2010, 04:39 PM) *
The book should be available at a reasonable price via Amazon's secondhand offers, as should be the books missing in your collection. It's how I've been completing mine for some time now. You can even find rare things like the first matrix book there.

Thanks for the suggestion(s). I'm selling personal property as we speak to make up for a 18% pay cut and a couple thousand dollars in personal loans that haven't come back to me due to the economy, so filling in "old" material is currently WAY down the priority scale.

As to the original Matrix book, I think you mean Golden Angel book? Yeah, got that. *grin*
Angelone
Grandmother? Wasn't she the fixer/insect queen in the Twist books ( Secrets of Power trilogy, never deal with a dragon, choose your enemies carefully, and find yourown truth)? I never guessed it would have been the same person as one was dealing with insect spirits and the other with (I guess) horrors. Yeah that does open alot of questions to what exactly she is, and whether or not she should or even can be killed with silver and fire. I wish that stuff would have gotten more attention it was quite interesting.
hermit
QUOTE (Kerenshara)
Thanks for the suggestion(s). I'm selling personal property as we speak to make up for a 18% pay cut and a couple thousand dollars in personal loans that haven't come back to me due to the economy, so filling in "old" material is currently WAY down the priority scale.

As to the original Matrix book, I think you mean Golden Angel book? Yeah, got that. *grin*

Jeez. Having the good fortune to live where I live, I scarcely noticed the financial crisis at all, and tend to forget how hard most Americans have been hit. Hope you'll manage. Best wishes!

And yes, that's the book. They don't make'em like that anymore. *sniffles*

QUOTE
This whole "mass communications" idea and the Matrix is all pretty amusing and new to them, and I think this comes across in how they treat it. The other episodes of Beyond the Veil that have appeared in canon have read a lot like that, too.

It's even more than that to them. The Immortals all seem to spend an extraordinary time online. Maybe because, unlike the world, it is neutral ground for them? Or maybe because they can just parlay there and jibe each other, like they never would face to face?

And some enjoy it too much. Harlequin seems to have gone missing in Tales of Atlantis, SR's equivalent of WoW. Also, ToA is, essentially, Earthdawn. Someone in the know programmed this and is making good money off it, while it all being a giant in-joke for the Immortals.

My money's on Lightbringer aka Leonardo for this, though it could be the work of any of them, save Brane Deigh maybe.

QUOTE
Grandmother? Wasn't she the fixer/insect queen in the Twist books

Spider, but yes. Spider was, however, somehow de-insectified and now is a more normal totem (courtesy of Dog and Twist, I guess). I think she's something far worse than an insect shaman, though. At the very least, she seems to be working towards the Horrors' reappearance.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 17 2010, 05:13 PM) *
No, I can safely say that it wasn't Verjigorm, F4. Thanks for playing, though.

OK, now you've got my interest.

BTW, the ork in question was "Mama", and yeah was in the IIRC Kenson novel with Talon, The Burning Time. The part with Ghostwalker was less than one page. GWs return was basically intro'd there to be addressed somewhere else (kinda like the events of The Forever Drug). Exactly what GW was doing out there was never really established, so I was curious on Patrick's take on it.

There are a few other horrors out there that might fit the bill, like the one mentioned in .... I can't recall if the one I'm thinking of was in Shadows of... Europe or Asia.. the one referred to in a dream ... The Despoiler? But I'd think they'd refer to him with something closer to that title. That would be the one that took Vestrivian (more ED stuff, another Great Dragon, victim of a different horror).

I don't believe that shedim have actually been established as horrors. Kind of like how ghouls are horror constructs in ED, but they're HMHVV in SR. Similar doesn't equal same. I could be wrong.
hermit
QUOTE
BTW, the ork in question was "Mama", and yeah was in the IIRC Kenson novel with Talon, The Burning Time. The part with Ghostwalker was less than one page. GWs return was basically intro'd there to be addressed somewhere else (kinda like the events of The Forever Drug). Exactly what GW was doing out there was never really established, so I was curious on Patrick's take on it.

Okay, yes, I was mistaken. Pity.

QUOTE
I don't believe that shedim have actually been established as horrors.

Their forced Karma drain mirrors a power that was horror specific in ED? I'd think that a giveaway. Also, that would make GW a lot more dunkelzahn-y - him returning from where Dunkie went.
Ol' Scratch
I always thought Mama/Grandmother/whateveryouwannacallher was supposed to be Baba Yaga.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 18 2010, 04:41 AM) *
Also, that would make GW a lot more dunkelzahn-y - him returning from where Dunkie went.

Except it's not where Dunk went. It's where he died. He became a free spirit. I've always thought of the entrance through the rift as sort of a "path of laest resistance".

There was a horror power called Karma tap, but all it did was let the horrors use the adept's karma against him. It didn't accelerate into draining attributes if there was no karma left. I agree there is a lot to suggest that they could be horrors, but I think the dragons and IEs would be making a lot bigger stink about it if they were. Harlequin even mentions in one of the books that wraiths are a precursor to something worst. No such mention for the shedim. By your reasoin, imps would be horrors as well. I think it's more likely they're simply a different type of astral threat. It makes sense that they would feed on karma since spirits need it to grow/advance.

Doc - The Shadowrun Baba Yaga is a "spectral spirit creature" (pg 21 Critters) that lives in the woods. But yeah, the style does seem similar.
hermit
QUOTE
Except it's not where Dunk went. It's where he died. He became a free spirit. I've always thought of the entrance through the rift as sort of a "path of laest resistance".

His body died, but dragons have long been established as more spirit than physical creature. It is not unfeasible they can return, somehow, because their sould, if you will, is not as linked to their body as with metahumans. All dragons have phases where they only exist as a spirit, after all.

And this has been established since before YotC, with the old ED dragons book.

QUOTE
There was a horror power called Karma tap, but all it did was let the horrors use the adept's karma against him. It didn't accelerate into draining attributes if there was no karma left. I agree there is a lot to suggest that they could be horrors, but I think the dragons and IEs would be making a lot bigger stink about it if they were.

Not to mention other spirits hating them, particularily spirits of the gaiasphere, and calling them abominations. And Dragons and IE weren't that terribly panicked by Wraiths, Imps and their ilk either. Yrswhattheffuck and his posse crossing at crater lake were a danger because it allowed biggies to cross, but these small Horrors, they semmed to just shrug and kill if they happened unto one, not to seek and exterminate. Harlekin's comment in SoE said as much.

And yes, Imps can well be considered Horrors, too. I do.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 18 2010, 08:05 AM) *
His body died, but dragons have long been established as more spirit than physical creature. It is not unfeasible they can return, somehow, because their sould, if you will, is not as linked to their body as with metahumans. All dragons have phases where they only exist as a spirit, after all.

I'm not sure I'm ready to agree with that one. Ghostwalker is noted as the go to dragon for all manner of spirit issues. When his mate bought it, he grabbed her soul into a soul stone. If they could come back as anything but spirit ,I think he would have done it by now.

QUOTE
And yes, Imps can well be considered Horrors, too. I do.

Well there you go then. smile.gif If it works for you, cool beans. You are right in that it's never clearly defined and they are very similar. There's nothing that says they aren't.

The point on abominations BTW, spirits act the same to the invae. They are clearly stated as not being horrors. But the rest is pretty valid.
hermit
QUOTE
If they could come back as anything but spirit ,I think he would have done it by now.

He did. In Burning Time, he is described as very spirit-like.

Maybe his mate failed? Or maybe he wanted to first go and check whether it's possible? And as is said in Patrick's text: Who knows how the nether planes change a dragon.

QUOTE
There's nothing that says they aren't.

The point on abominations BTW, spirits act the same to the invae. They are clearly stated as not being horrors. But the rest is pretty valid.

True enough. smile.gif But Invae are both habringers of the horrors, and strangers to this metaplane.

It can be argued that the Horrors aren't a unified force of some kind but an agglomeration of dire astral threats that like to eat things in a myriad of ways, coming from more than one plane, anyway. Hence, they might well be difficult to impossible to clearly cathegorise.
Patrick Goodman
No, guys, really...don't stop. This is kinda fun.... wink.gif

In other news, I took Kerenshara's formatting notes to heart, dug up my old SR3 fonts, and cleaned up the presentation a little bit. It's still not a full-blown layout or anything, but it should make it easier to keep track of who's who and what's what in the story. I think I got all the relevent sections reformatted, but if I missed anything, drop me a line so I can fix it. Again.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Apr 17 2010, 04:09 PM) *
OK, now you've got my interest.

Like I said elsewhere, I do what I can.
QUOTE
The part with Ghostwalker was less than one page. GWs return was basically intro'd there to be addressed somewhere else (kinda like the events of The Forever Drug). Exactly what GW was doing out there was never really established, so I was curious on Patrick's take on it.

Elissa and I threw some theories out there, so we'd have some sort of framework with which to manage things, and to help other freelancers manage things, should the threads ever be picked up. Where some of that framework is now, I've got no idea. It doesn't appear to be on my hard drive or any of my backups.

That said, I do have a few current ideas of what he might have been hunting for, and what he might be hunting next, but I've got a lot of catch-up reading to do, and I need to see how a few things, both plot-wise and real-world, shake out before I decide how exactly I might pursue those ideas. So basically, I'm going to shut up now on this part of the topic and see how events transpire.
QUOTE
I don't believe that shedim have actually been established as horrors. Kind of like how ghouls are horror constructs in ED, but they're HMHVV in SR. Similar doesn't equal same. I could be wrong.

The shedim weren't meant to be Horrors, per se, just another wave of harbingers like the invae/bug spirits (think of them as the Drakh to the Horrors as Shadows, if you will). At least by one interpretation, and I think it's a pretty reasonable one. I don't know that I think it's right, but it's pretty reasonable.

They were, of course, initially conceived as something to make the dark corners a little scarier. I think things got kind of sidetracked for a while, but I'd like to see things made a little murkier again. Maybe I can add that to my considerably growing list of things to think about for SR....

Oh, and there's nothing that says Horrors didn't conceive HMHVV. I don't think they did, necessarily, but there's nothing that says they didn't.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 18 2010, 02:41 AM) *
QUOTE
I don't believe that shedim have actually been established as horrors.

Their forced Karma drain mirrors a power that was horror specific in ED? I'd think that a giveaway. Also, that would make GW a lot more dunkelzahn-y - him returning from where Dunkie went.

I don't remember that they were supposed to be Horrors, per se, but like I was telling F4 earlier, at least a few of the freelancers at the time thought that having them as Horror constructs or precursors wouldn't hurt things from a writing standpoint. It was never established hard-and-fast that I can recall, just so that there'd be maneuvering room for other writers later.

And GW coming out of the Dunkelzahn Rift in DeeCee? A lot of things went into that idea, not the least of which was "point of least resistance" for his re-entry into the meat world. I'm trying to remember what all's been made canon now about GW and his relationship to all the other players, so if it seems like I'm being deliberately vague...it's kinda because I am. Don't wanna throw spoilers or supposition out there until I can reacquaint myself with the game world. I've come back, but there's a lot of stuff I've missed whilst I was away....
hermit
And now for a more concise review.

Part 1

I liked the transcript style. Also, the way the reporter started praying felt not too odd for me. After all, she had imminent death approaching and nowhere to run. Some people are likely to pray then. The cameraman could've shat his pants, but then again, the level of grossmight not havbe been appropriate. I felt the "OMG Ghostwakler" vibe was a bit heavy handed - 62 Meters would have been enough? - but I see why you wrote it as you wrote it, and at least, i didn'T come off quite as heavy handed as the Horizon writeup in Emergence, Runner Havens, the 4E basic rules and Corp Enclaves did (it got less annoying in newer releases, though, I got t admit). I also liked how he took over this Sioux, just because he could. Pity he was never really developed further, he seems certainly interesting.

Part 2
IT IS BACK! I used to love these parts. The quirky immortals chatting in their own world conspiracy chat room. It was always great fun to read.
Who is Umsondo? The Heavenheard representative? Also, will Pomorya - standing for another elven city, most likely - ever make it's voice heared? Dunno how much you know about the German stuff, but it could use some tying into canon, if you guys will.
Also, who put Alachia on Prozac? She seems fairly mellow for Alachia ... whom I always considered as crazy and aggressive and paranoid as Cersei of Song of Ice and Fire fame, if anyone happens to know these books.

Overall, likeable. My Issues are mainly:

- Ghostwalker comes off as too LOLWTF. A bit less marveling about his general uberness and emphathising any dragon being gargantuan and scary, being a creature of Godzilla size would maybe have worked better for me. Speaking of Godzilla, a couple helicopters tracking Ghostwalker would have been nice, too. Just as a gesture. Or Secret Service agents rushing before Daviar in a totally useless attempt to shield her, just out of reflex. Sure, they were prepared in theory, but if Godzilla came towards you, what would you do?
- Alachia should have been more aggressive. Really, it's Alachia. She should have at the very least talked arrogantly down to everyne, as in Aztlan. Also, nobody pecked on Brane Deigh as in Aztlan. Why? They're such bullies usually.
- Hestaby was too nice. She could show some hidden hostility, at least (downcycle hunting and all). But Hestaby is too nice altogether, so that canot be blamed on you entirely.

I'd have preferred more info on Guardian and the Hunter, but as this was canceled, there we go.

When was it decided Sirrug would take up the 'new Hunt'?
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 18 2010, 01:00 PM) *
Also, the way the reporter started praying felt not too odd for me. After all, she had imminent death approaching and nowhere to run. Some people are likely to pray then.

That was my line of thinking. Good little Catholic girl, about to be eaten by a dragon...I can see a "Hail Mary" as a not-too-unlikely reaction. Now, if I'd had her petitioning St. George, that would have been a little much, I thnk. Not that it didn't cross my mind...as I writer I'm wont to go there at times...but as long as it didn't come out in the actual text....
QUOTE
I felt the "OMG Ghostwakler" vibe was a bit heavy handed - 62 Meters would have been enough? - but liked how he took over this Sioux, just because he could. Pity he was never really developed further, he seems certainly interesting.

Yeah, I confess, it's probably a little over-the-top, and that's probably my bad. I was really enthusiastic about Ghostwalker and really wanted him to be...well, uber. Might have overdone it a tad; it certainly wouldn't be the first time.
QUOTE
Who is Umsondo? The Heavenheard representative?

I think so, but I honestly don't think I've ever really known. Been around for a while, book-wise, though.
QUOTE
Also, will Pomorya - standing for another elven city, most likely - ever make it's voice heared? Dunno how much you know about the German stuff, but it could use some tying into canon, if you guys will.

I haven't the vaguest notion on this issue, but if I ever decide to do anything like this again and get a green light, I might drop you a line with some questions.
QUOTE
Also, who put Alachia on Prozac? She seems fairly mellow for Alachia ... whom I always considered as crazy and aggressive and paranoid as Cersei of Song of Ice and Fire fame, if anyone happens to know these books.

Prozac...that was probably me, though Elissa did have a lot of influence on that part of the story especially; my original there was, as I recall, somewhat lame.

As for being mellow...my feeling on that was that they'd all, each and every one of them, just had a Very Bad Day, with some of them being somewhat on the stunned side.

More in a moment; I've been informed I had too many quote blocks in this....
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE
- Ghostwalker comes off as too LOLWTF. A bit less marveling about his general uberness and emphathising any dragon being gargantuan and scary, being a creature of Godzilla size would maybe have worked better for me.

Well, like I said, that was my fault. I wanted him to be BIG, with a capital BIG. Little bit of dragon fan-wank, I guess; it goes with the territory. I'm not the go-to guy for gritty, street-level stories, and sometimes I tend to let my proclivites get the better of me...especially in a piece that got no propoer development and editorial work. Well-polished as I think it came out looking, it's still just a draft that would have needed some massage to make it fit in the game world a little tighter.
QUOTE
Speaking of Godzilla, a couple helicopters tracking Ghostwalker would have been nice, too. Just as a gesture.

He ate them.

No, really, go re-read the appropriate sections of Year of the Comet again....
QUOTE
Or Secret Service agents rushing before Daviar in a totally useless attempt to shield her, just out of reflex. Sure, they were prepared in theory, but if Godzilla came towards you, what would you do?

I wanted Secret Service goons, but for whatever reason, it had been established that she was there flying solo...well, she had Ryan Marysue there with her, but he wouldn't have leapt up in front of her like a Secret Service goon.... Anyway, it was established that there weren't Secret Service guys in Denver with her elsewhere in the actual book, as I recall, so I couldn't have them suddenly appear here in a story that I had wanted in the book, or at least on the web in an official capacity. What can ya do?
QUOTE
- Alachia should have been more aggressive. Really, it's Alachia. She should have at the very least talked arrogantly down to everyne, as in Aztlan. Also, nobody pecked on Brane Deigh as in Aztlan. Why? They're such bullies usually.

As I said elsewhere, they'd had a Very Bad Day. Another episode would almost certainly find them sniping away as per normal. Or what passes for normal with this lot....
QUOTE
- Hestaby was too nice. She could show some hidden hostility, at least (downcycle hunting and all). But Hestaby is too nice altogether, so that canot be blamed on you entirely.

I do have some ideas to gray up the Orange Queen, as it were. She acts nice a lot of the time, but there's a bunch of stuff I think she's doing in the background. I think the "I'm the nice dragon now" thing is an act to get people to underestimate her, part of her camoflage as it were. And it works; even Lofwyr has been taken in by some of her schemes. Not all of them, to be sure...he's a sneaky fragger, that Lofwyr...but Hestaby's gotten some over on him before, and I think she will again.
QUOTE
I'd have preferred more info on Guardian and the Hunter, but as this was canceled, there we go.

I'm working on this. Oh, and I guess I'll go ahead and spill it...Ghostwalker is the Hunter. Guardian was right, Brane Deigh was wrong. Guardian...him, nobody's met. Yet.
QUOTE
When was it decided Sirrug would take up the 'new Hunt'?

Who says it was? Any hunting that Sirrurg is doing is his own look-out, and not related to what I'd had in mind.
Ryu
Ive read it now, actually playing SR took priority smile.gif.

The style is good, and for the short length the descriptions are nice. Id have preferred a longer version of the story.

Hecate is IMO a representative of the Theran Heavenheards instead of Alachia, but I know that is a dissenting opinion. wink.gif
kjones
Patrick Goodman, you have once again established yourself as Patrick Greatman! Thanks for this.

Furthermore, goddamn but I miss Captain Chaos. FastJack is awesome and everything, but... goddamn. Do we have a date for Crash 2.0? I think there will be an empty chair at my table on that day.
hermit
Fascinating stuff! Thanks for the time, Patrick!

QUOTE
He ate them.

>>play godzilla.wav

QUOTE
Well, like I said, that was my fault. I wanted him to be BIG, with a capital BIG. Little bit of dragon fan-wank, I guess; it goes with the territory. I'm not the go-to guy for gritty, street-level stories, and sometimes I tend to let my proclivites get the better of me...especially in a piece that got no propoer development and editorial work. Well-polished as I think it came out looking, it's still just a draft that would have needed some massage to make it fit in the game world a little tighter.

No problem, just pointin out it might have worked better for me. I'm not very much for street level stuff either, I had my fill of that where I grew up. Just saying it might have worked better for me if all dragons were depicted as DAMN BIG AND SCARY.

QUOTE
I wanted Secret Service goons, but for whatever reason, it had been established that she was there flying solo...well, she had Ryan Marysue there with her, but he wouldn't have leapt up in front of her like a Secret Service goon....

Nah, he'd grab her and fly up, up and away ... wink.gif

Seriously though, pity, but not your fault then. Still would have been nice.

QUOTE
I do have some ideas to gray up the Orange Queen, as it were. She acts nice a lot of the time, but there's a bunch of stuff I think she's doing in the background. I think the "I'm the nice dragon now" thing is an act to get people to underestimate her, part of her camoflage as it were. And it works; even Lofwyr has been taken in by some of her schemes. Not all of them, to be sure...he's a sneaky fragger, that Lofwyr...but Hestaby's gotten some over on him before, and I think she will again.

Actually, I am running a campaign where a character - a drake - has been newly accepted into Shasta. Well, actually she has been traded, it is a spin-off of my usual campaign, and the character would have died, had it not been for this. Anyway, the character is being introduced to Shasta, and I really try to make Hestaby not only a nice and friendly dragon, but manipualtive and authoritarian. Shasta itself, I try to make into a Hippie cult - drugs, free love and mindless obedience, with Hestaby as Charles Manson and a strict internal Hierarchy.

Glad to see such a view of her may become canon.

QUOTE
I'm working on this. Oh, and I guess I'll go ahead and spill it...Ghostwalker is the Hunter. Guardian was right, Brane Deigh was wrong. Guardian...him, nobody's met. Yet.

Thrilled to see this work in print or pdf! I hope it will work out this time. smile.gif

QUOTE
Who says it was? Any hunting that Sirrurg is doing is his own look-out, and not related to what I'd had in mind.

The Dragons book said he would likely be hunting downcycle dragonslayers.
hermit
Cont'd:

QUOTE
That was my line of thinking. Good little Catholic girl, about to be eaten by a dragon...I can see a "Hail Mary" as a not-too-unlikely reaction.

No, not at all. I distinctly remember that from some 9/11 video, actually. Not everyone would react like that in the face of catastrophe, but some certainly would.

QUOTE
I haven't the vaguest notion on this issue, but if I ever decide to do anything like this again and get a green light, I might drop you a line with some questions.

Certainly. Just drop me a line via DS. I'd be very happy to help there.

QUOTE
Prozac...that was probably me, though Elissa did have a lot of influence on that part of the story especially; my original there was, as I recall, somewhat lame.

As for being mellow...my feeling on that was that they'd all, each and every one of them, just had a Very Bad Day, with some of them being somewhat on the stunned side.

True. I'd just expect Alachia to react more aggressively, but then again I am mixing her with another character in my mind right now.

QUOTE
Hecate is IMO a representative of the Theran Heavenheards instead of Alachia, but I know that is a dissenting opinion.

I always felt she's Aina.

QUOTE
Furthermore, goddamn but I miss Captain Chaos.

+1

I miss a damn lot about SR3. Tir Tairngire, for instance (as opposed to the Horizon Elfyland Themepark).
Patrick Goodman
Okay, I think I've got all the formatting bugaboos fixed. Link in the first post is still good. Thanks to everyone who let me know about the minor formatting glitches.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 18 2010, 02:04 PM) *

I actually have a Godzilla roar wave on my system. My son seems to enjoy it.
QUOTE
Just saying it might have worked better for me if all dragons were depicted as DAMN BIG AND SCARY.

That they're not is a problem. I try to have any dragon, even a "garden variety" western dragon come across as big. This might have also tainted how I presented Ghostwalker.
QUOTE
Actually, I am running a campaign where a character - a drake - has been newly accepted into Shasta. Well, actually she has been traded, it is a spin-off of my usual campaign, and the character would have died, had it not been for this. Anyway, the character is being introduced to Shasta, and I really try to make Hestaby not only a nice and friendly dragon, but manipualtive and authoritarian. Shasta itself, I try to make into a Hippie cult - drugs, free love and mindless obedience, with Hestaby as Charles Manson and a strict internal Hierarchy.

Glad to see such a view of her may become canon.

Hestaby is a Great Dragon. To portray her as being any one particular way -- good, bad, or indifferent -- is doing her a disservice. I think she deserves to do some good things, and I don't even think it's a bad thing for her to be perceived as "The Nice Dragon." But there's more to her. I think going solely the other way would be an equal disservice.

There was more to Dunkelzahn, too. And there's more to Lofwyr. But SR writers paint them one-dimensionally all the time, and it irriates me mightily. I did it in this piece myself, to be honest, but that's certainly not all there is to GW.
QUOTE
The Dragons book said he [Sirrurg] would likely be hunting downcycle dragonslayers.

True enough...but that mihjt not be the "new Hunt" to which GW was referring. devil.gif
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