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Kazuhiro
My last run involved Johnson telling the runners to find and assassinate five people, about whom he would divulge no information except their names, what little intel on him he had, and the fact that they would all be in a mall at the same time. The face did his legwork, the technomancer got himself an admin account at the security booth, and the other characters sharpened their cyberspurs and filled their magazines with EX-EX rounds. They all knew that the Johnson was withholding info-- after all he didn't even say why he wanted these people dead-- but they weren't expecting small wooden figurines being placed in discreet locations to form a circle encompassing the crowd at the big Niketown opening.

The thing is, though, that one of my players commented, "Oh, so this is a Kazu run after all. He sends us off on a run only to dump a big new development on us in the middle of it." At what point does adding "The Twist" in the middle of the mission become cliche?

Is it better to give the runners a simple "run in, steal this, gtfo" mission once in a while, so that the occasional SURPRISE BLOOD MAGES is still a surprise?

Mantis
Yes. Not every run needs to be earth shattering and epic in proportion. In fact the simple runs should be the norm with the usual back stab/double cross thrown in to change it up. Save the Blood mages/Free Spirits/Dragons for a surprise. Of course if you are running a campaign where the characters routinely run into dragons and such, then I guess you could use a 'normal' run as a surprise and watch the confusion as the players wait for the hammer to fall and be surprised when it never does.
It all depends on what power level you are running your game at. SR2 and 3 where pretty good for running the epic stuff and lousy at street level games while SR4 seems to have street level down pat. I haven't tried to run any of the epic stuff I used to but it seems like it would still work. If you want street level then leave the nasty stuff as a surprise and if you want epic just reverse it.
Its all in the presentation. Keeping the players off balance is part of the GM's job after all. smile.gif
MikeKozar
I wouldn't advocate straightforward, but it looks like you have set them up for a pretty epic fake-out. Make the big twist in your next story that the apparently sinister forces along the periphery are completely benign, or unrelated to the PCs. Have mysterious stalkers be Trid reporters, or fans of the runners. Have the snipers and tac-teams that the players detect be there to assault an organized crime base across the street. Have the creepy, apocolyptic messages be a viral marketing campaign for a new video game, or deoderant. Get them involved in a big conspiracy, with lots of people trying to tranq them and the principal, and ultimately be protecting boring details of a consumer product due to be released. Have them hired by a woman to keep tabs on a suit, only to discover a Shadow team is stalking him - when the plays get around to talking to the other team, they figure out that the suit is a bigamist and both his wives independantly hired investigators because they suspected infidelity.

Every now and then, it's okay to have a punch line.
Mesh
I enjoy giving them the twist(1) right up front when they start their research. Twist(2) is nice while on the run with at least several more(3-5?) as they finish or try to (some of the twists lead to side plots). When it's all over, they probably never learn (at least not for a while) about twist(6 and 7) going on behind the scenes and above the fray.

The four scariest words in the English language are, "Trust me. It's easy." Simple plots are boring anyway.
Method
I think you kinda already know it, but yeah- you have to mix in a few straight forward jobs and an occasional cake walk to really get the most bang for your plot twist buck. I'm actually running a campaign right now wherein the Johnson at the start of the story is the BBEG. The runners will perform a seires of simple runs helping him advance his agenda (a major terrorist attack). In the midst of these I'll throw in a totally unrelated job. Eventually the Johnson will betray them (in the form of a large fuel-air car bomb). The rest of the campaign will revolve around trying to stop him (with some other twists for good measure).

Anyway, you gotta mix it up to keep your players guessing.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, no one expects everything to be easy, but no one wants every run to be M. Night Shyamalan either. If "curse your sudden and inevitable betrayal!" happens, maybe it's too often. biggrin.gif
Red-ROM
I stumble over this problem all the time, I'll come up with an idea thats too simple, then I'll try to build the intrigue or make it more complex, and sometimes write myself into a corner where it stops making sense, or the characters get confused.
Hagga
QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Apr 20 2010, 08:22 PM) *
My last run involved Johnson telling the runners to find and assassinate five people, about whom he would divulge no information except their names, what little intel on him he had, and the fact that they would all be in a mall at the same time. The face did his legwork, the technomancer got himself an admin account at the security booth, and the other characters sharpened their cyberspurs and filled their magazines with EX-EX rounds. They all knew that the Johnson was withholding info-- after all he didn't even say why he wanted these people dead-- but they weren't expecting small wooden figurines being placed in discreet locations to form a circle encompassing the crowd at the big Niketown opening.

The thing is, though, that one of my players commented, "Oh, so this is a Kazu run after all. He sends us off on a run only to dump a big new development on us in the middle of it." At what point does adding "The Twist" in the middle of the mission become cliche?

Is it better to give the runners a simple "run in, steal this, gtfo" mission once in a while, so that the occasional SURPRISE BLOOD MAGES is still a surprise?

Yes, in a word. But instead of "BLOOD MAGES" (although fun) sometimes just make everything - EVERYTHING - a backstab or M. Night Shamayalan TWEEST. The animal they were hired to retrieve? Not a lesser Roc, drugged and unaware in a convienient transport crate, but a Greater Roc. A full grown, angry, hungry one. The Johnson? A nosferatu carrying the ghoul strain who licked everything in the meeting room. The facility? Saeder-Krupp, with one of Lofwyr's subordinates watching over it. Lofwyr's scaly subordinates. The drinks? Spiked with Renfield. Johnson's employer? Whichever corp has copped it the worst from the players recently. The facility location? Requires mountain climbing to get to, in wyvern infested country. You get the idea - just make them want to strangle you. They'll appreciate the easy runs more. Or sodomize, murder and bury you in a shallow grave in the woods.
Delta
QUOTE (Kazuhiro @ Apr 20 2010, 09:22 PM) *
Is it better to give the runners a simple "run in, steal this, gtfo" mission once in a while, so that the occasional SURPRISE BLOOD MAGES is still a surprise?


In my opinion, surprises can give an adventure a great twist, if done right.

The thing is, often, those surprises don't make a whole lot of sense. Especially in the case of Mr.J withholding information, you better think of a really good reason why the Johnson would withhold said information from the runners (and no, "to give the run a surprise twist" is not a good reason). I can't even count the number of runs (especially at conventions) where we went on a run just to find out that the Johnson had withheld relevant information from the runners he hired with no discernible reason other than to make the run more challenging. Considering that most often, when the Johnson hires a team to do a job, he wants the runners to succeed (yes, not always the case, I know), it is in his best interest to give them all the information that would help them succeed on their mission. So leaving out relevant information from a mission briefing, especially information that the runners might get themselves later on, will do nothing but discredit your position as a trusted employer and, more importantly, will make it LESS likely for the runners to succeed on the job.

That doesn't mean that there can't be a whole ton of good reasons to withhold information for a Johnson, because there are. But you should think if one that your players will at least be able to understand in the end, because otherwise it looks to them like an NPC acting stupidly against his own interest just to make their life difficult, which can break SoD for many.

And to add something: Yes, sometimes it IS better to give the runners a relatively simple, straightforward run. You don't have to have double-crosses and nasty surprises around every single corner just to make a run interesting. Because if your players know that every run is a double-cross of some kind, it becomes boring.
Ascalaphus
A simple mission doesn't have to be boring; just make it hard. Make the guards tougher, more of them, and security measures tighter and more effective. The PCs will probably end up setting up their own plot twists because direct assault doesn't look feasible. Like complicated schemes to infiltrate the target location.
Teulisch
in my experience, the 'twist' is best when its something stupid the players do to themselves when they have enough info that they should know better.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Delta @ Apr 21 2010, 12:48 AM) *
Especially in the case of Mr.J withholding information, you better think of a really good reason why the Johnson would withhold said information from the runners (and no, "to give the run a surprise twist" is not a good reason). I can't even count the number of runs (especially at conventions) where we went on a run just to find out that the Johnson had withheld relevant information from the runners he hired with no discernible reason other than to make the run more challenging. Considering that most often, when the Johnson hires a team to do a job, he wants the runners to succeed (yes, not always the case, I know), it is in his best interest to give them all the information that would help them succeed on their mission. So leaving out relevant information from a mission briefing, especially information that the runners might get themselves later on, will do nothing but discredit your position as a trusted employer and, more importantly, will make it LESS likely for the runners to succeed on the job.

That doesn't mean that there can't be a whole ton of good reasons to withhold information for a Johnson, because there are. But you should think if one that your players will at least be able to understand in the end, because otherwise it looks to them like an NPC acting stupidly against his own interest just to make their life difficult, which can break SoD for many.


Reasons for Johnson not to play it straight:

If he admits upfront how dangerous the run is, the runners won't attempt it.
If he admits upfront how dangerous the run is, the runners will want more money.
If the runners manage to accomplish the objective and then get executed, he doesn't have to pay them.
Johnson is personally involved in whatever is being covered up.
Johnson is bound by a NDA to not reveal certain details.
Johnson is bound by magical/technological compulsion to not reveal certain details.
Johnson didn't do the homework.

After a certain point, it stops being Need-To-Know or Issues of Operational Security and just turns into Johnson trying to get the runners killed. I would expect the runners to react the same way they do to any other attempt to kill them.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Apr 21 2010, 02:30 PM) *
Reasons for Johnson not to play it straight:

If he admits upfront how dangerous the run is, the runners won't attempt it.
If he admits upfront how dangerous the run is, the runners will want more money.
If the runners manage to accomplish the objective and then get executed, he doesn't have to pay them.
Johnson is personally involved in whatever is being covered up.
Johnson is bound by a NDA to not reveal certain details.
Johnson is bound by magical/technological compulsion to not reveal certain details.
Johnson didn't do the homework.

After a certain point, it stops being Need-To-Know or Issues of Operational Security and just turns into Johnson trying to get the runners killed. I would expect the runners to react the same way they do to any other attempt to kill them.


You forgot: they might start talking to competitors about better offers.
Drats
Granted, I've got more storytelling experience than I do Shadowrun experience, but my take on the game has always been that it should seem at times to be nothing but twists-- not because you're constantly M. Knighting your players, but because there are just too many people and angles involved in even some of the simpler runs for your players to be able to reasonably piece together the whole picture.

Never let them feel a full sense of closure, and your problem solves itself. Leave them with loose ends that you don't ever actually plan on connecting with anything. Follow up runs they thought they had pinned down every angle of with news feeds or word on the street about unforseen ripples caused by their actions. Insert just enough subtle hints that you've got metaplots cooking on the back burner, and they're going to be seeing twists everywhere they look. The paranoid survive, after all.

Most of the runs I toss my players are simple and straightforward a->b->c affairs (on my side of the screen, at least), but the PCs are still so convinced that Big Brother (and the BBEG) are waiting to cart them off that my party's mage actually called in backup the last time his kindly old Ork mentor invited him over for homemade tamales. As a GM, I've rarely been prouder, and when the team went on a scheduled run later that week, all of their heads were sufficiently tied up with similar concerns that they didn't suspect THE TWEEST they'd walked into until three sessions later.
Mesh
QUOTE (Drats @ Apr 21 2010, 09:37 AM) *
Granted, I've got more storytelling experience than I do Shadowrun experience, but my take on the game has always been that it should seem at times to be nothing but twists-- not because you're constantly M. Knighting your players, but because there are just too many people and angles involved in even some of the simpler runs for your players to be able to reasonably piece together the whole picture.

Never let them feel a full sense of closure, and your problem solves itself. Leave them with loose ends that you don't ever actually plan on connecting with anything. Follow up runs they thought they had pinned down every angle of with news feeds or word on the street about unforseen ripples caused by their actions. Insert just enough subtle hints that you've got metaplots cooking on the back burner, and they're going to be seeing twists everywhere they look. The paranoid survive, after all.

Most of the runs I toss my players are simple and straightforward a->b->c affairs (on my side of the screen, at least), but the PCs are still so convinced that Big Brother (and the BBEG) are waiting to cart them off that my party's mage actually called in backup the last time his kindly old Ork mentor invited him over for homemade tamales. As a GM, I've rarely been prouder, and when the team went on a scheduled run later that week, all of their heads were sufficiently tied up with similar concerns that they didn't suspect THE TWEEST they'd walked into until three sessions later.


QFT! Shadowrun IS nothing if not twists, turns, and knives in the back. Newcomers are often wow'ed by cyber, guns, tech, and magic, and these are definitely extremely cool, but the setting which is full of competing angles and paranoia can make for a much more rewarding experience.

Mesh
Delta
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Apr 21 2010, 01:30 PM) *
Reasons for Johnson not to play it straight


As I said, there are more than enough potential reasons, but you should think about it in advance if it makes sense in a certain situation, because often, it simply doesn't. Hiring a bunch of low-level runners to assassinate five people you tell them nothing about which turn out to be powerful, dangerous mages is pretty stupid if you actually want them to succeed. Either they will find out about the true power of their targets, which will most certainly lead to "renegotiations", usually on much less friendly terms because the runners now know MrJ tried to screw them over, or, even worse, they won't find out, in which case it is most likely that their targets will wipe the floor with them. I most certainly do not advise any MrJ to actually "trust" the runners, but sometimes, yes, the runners actually DO "need to know" the relevant facts about their target in order to succeed.

Of course, all of this becomes a moot point as soon as the J actually does NOT want the runners to succeed in their mission, but I'd be careful with such runs as well. As I said, there's the in-character point that if the J tries to screw his runners over every time, there's the valid question why any fixer actually wants his runners to work for this guy, and the out-of-character problem that when there's a "surprise twist" in each and every run, well, it ceases to be a surprise.
Ascalaphus
A risk of adding too many twists is that at some point players fail to see the forest for the trees. With too many twists, the narrative devolves into chaos.
"A pawn of the Higher Powers" is a nice cliche, but at some point you stop caring about the reasons and it's just random mayhem.
Harbin
QUOTE (Teulisch @ Apr 21 2010, 02:28 AM) *
in my experience, the 'twist' is best when its something stupid the players do to themselves when they have enough info that they should know better.


I'd like to interrupt with a couple coughs, as one of our players does this often enough already. nyahnyah.gif

(Except he rages instead of doing anything to fix it.)
Harbin
QUOTE (Mesh @ Apr 21 2010, 03:47 AM) *
QFT! Shadowrun IS nothing if not twists, turns, and knives in the back. Newcomers are often wow'ed by cyber, guns, tech, and magic, and these are definitely extremely cool, but the setting which is full of competing angles and paranoia can make for a much more rewarding experience.

Mesh



But the thing is that Shadowrun is essentially a constant mix of Xanatos Roulettes, not a single twist to a plot. There's conspiracies within conspiracies and then there's two sides in the conspiracy within the conspiracy with a double agent on each side with the triple agent who loves the leader of the first conspiracy but she's really actually a corp and is a man. (And already has a wife.) AND THE WIFE IS HESTABY.
Kazuhiro
QUOTE (Harbin @ Apr 21 2010, 10:13 AM) *
But the thing is that Shadowrun is essentially a constant mix of Xanatos Roulettes, not a single twist to a plot. There's conspiracies within conspiracies and then there's two sides in the conspiracy within the conspiracy with a double agent on each side with the triple agent who loves the leader of the first conspiracy but she's really actually a corp and is a man. (And already has a wife.) AND THE WIFE IS HESTABY.
After reading through one of the Missions, he was left with this impression. So he tells me.
PatB
The biggest twist I made in my game, which is still holding a grudge, is the players being hired to dispose of a shaman of Rat who unexpectedly got the help of a Free Beast Rat Spirit. One player almost died while the other was 75% out (yes, it's a 2-players game with an AI NPC Hacker).

When the runner still on his legs came back to get the rest of the paiement (75% of the offer), they found, instead of the Johnson, a dead woman. The already alerted cops came too soon for the runner to escape, so he became a cop killer.

After some legwork, they found out the Johnson was a yakuza lieutenant, so the runners decided to pay a visit. Obviously not knowing who the runner was, the yakuza couldn't answer anything, so the runners killed him (they were pressed by time) - that's the short story.

They quickly found out that the rat shaman was bait, that the yakuza was not the Johnson who actually hired them, and that they did someone else's dirty work (God I love that Physical Mask spell biggrin.gif ).

A few weeks later, the yakuza decided to retaliate - it's a matter of honor after all wink.gif - by kidnapping a close contact and use this opportunity to use runners free of charge. That was another run where they almost died and got 2 bound spirits disrupted. Today, the runners hired a team of shadowrunners to find the mysterious Johnson and they're having issues finding him.

The story behind the scene is that Triads wanted to do a hit on the yakuza without being pointed, so they put several pawns and hired the runners on a fake run, hoping the runners would act on vengeance. Turned out they got exactly what they wanted ork.gif
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (PatB @ Apr 21 2010, 12:08 PM) *
Story


I'm all for good storytelling games, but as a player, and from what you said, I would personally not be happy.

1. You screwed the players out of 75% of their payment.
2. You're blackmailing them into free work.
3. You disrupted 2 of their bound spirits, which are not cheap.

Honestly, if I kept playing, I would begin to take a "GM vs the Players" standpoint.

How did the Yakuza know who the players were? While I see the logic of the events, it feels like a big old railroad to me. Unless your players like this sort of plot, of course (and since they are potentially holding a grudge, I think they likely don't).

Delta
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Apr 21 2010, 05:46 PM) *
2. You're blackmailing them into free work.


Well, at least this is something the player brought unto himself, after all, no one forced him to kill the Yakuza lieutenant.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Delta @ Apr 21 2010, 12:56 PM) *
Well, at least this is something the player brought unto himself, after all, no one forced him to kill the Yakuza lieutenant.


Yes, as Shadowrunners the characters did mess up (at several points). But #2 matters in conjunction with #1 and #3; the players are getting gipped out of a lot of money. Though if they can afford to hire their own runner team, perhaps money isn't much of an issue in that campaign. The poster didn't say either way.
Dreadlord
I have had a long-running twist that went over and above the runs they were involved in, that had a middle manager at Brackhaven from their VERY FIRST full blown run of a Corporate Punishment mission hunting them down and killing and torturing their contacts, and eventually led to an assassination attempt on their home ground, after several bothched attempts. Since I was running that as a metaplot, I kept the individual runs' twists pretty simple, as I didn't want to muddy it up too much. Since my group only meets about once or twice a month, it makes it really hard to get too complicated without completely losing the players.
The secret is to introduce enough paranoia that they are looking over their shoulder, but not so much that they are huddling under a cardboard box in an alley! wink.gif



PatB
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Apr 21 2010, 01:46 PM) *
I'm all for good storytelling games, but as a player, and from what you said, I would personally not be happy.

1. You screwed the players out of 75% of their payment.
2. You're blackmailing them into free work.
3. You disrupted 2 of their bound spirits, which are not cheap.

Honestly, if I kept playing, I would begin to take a "GM vs the Players" standpoint.

How did the Yakuza know who the players were? While I see the logic of the events, it feels like a big old railroad to me. Unless your players like this sort of plot, of course (and since they are potentially holding a grudge, I think they likely don't).


I removed detailed for the sake of keeping a somewhat short post. To answer the points:

1- Correct. However, the said free run ended up with much more financial gain. It's just that the yaks used this opportunity to hurt an ennemy without paying for it while making sure the balance was brought back - honor demanded it. Like I said, the players almost died in this one.

2- Kinda answered that with the previous point. Also, as seen in many posts and adventure frameworks, there are several ways to make money, so even if a run feels underpaid but runners can find other means to make money (like paydata), that's should be fine.

3- Disrupted spirits come back 28 minus their force days later. The mage just cannot use them during that time.

What happened with this run, and it all depends on the type of game/players/GM, is that this run brought motivation to the team, especially to one runner who decided that no Johnson is going to screw him, so he's taking matters into his own hands, mainly finding the source. The game has been running on a weekly basis for the last 6 months.

As a GM, I believe in the 3 main SR rules (bring back those old novels): 1- Never deal with a dragon, 2- Choose your enemies carefully, and 3- Find your own truth. When the runner was in front of the yakuza who didn't know squat about the run and the runners, the runner had a chance to let his mouth or his gun speak. He chose his gun. Now he needs to deal with the price of his decision.

I'm sure a bunch of GM made runs where runners got screwed by their Johnson. This one was a first for my runners, and I made sure it was going to hit their pride solidly - I wanted to provoke things, give the player the opportunity to drive the game instead of the traditional "waiting for the GM to come up with a run" - and it worked. It left a bad feeling that gave the players game motivation because they care about their character.
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