Howdy all:
I'm in the process of getting a game together using SR III and was thinking about giving the players a greater than typical starting BP budget to reflect more experienced runners -- all the players played in SR I and/or SR II and I'm kicking around the idea of letting their their runners be 'ex-retirees' who are coming out of retirement to run again.
To reflect their 'experienced' status, I'm also considering allowing them to buy Attributes, Skills, Resources, and available Spell Points beyond the recommended starting limits, but am not sure how I can pull this off without getting a bunch of monsters.
I'm considering using the following guidelines, and wanted to get your input on these.
Race/Metahuman Variants: As described in SR Companion. No changes.
Magic: As described in SR Companion. No changes. (Idle thought: wasn't there a variant magic priority pricing guide that was created by a member of this forum several months back? I wonder how that worked out)
Attributes: As described in SR Companion up to Racial Modified Limits. Greater than starting attributes can be facilitated through the use of Exceptional Attribute (no limit to the number of 'Exceptional Attributes', except only one per attribute) or Bonus Attribute Points (only one can be used to increase an attribute over RML). Attributes can be bought up to the RML at standard costs.
Skills: As described in SR Companion. Maximum starting value of any attribute cannot exceed 2x linked Attribute.
Beginning Resources: As described in SR Companion. Additional units of resources can be bought in 1million Nuyen increments at 30 BPs per 1 million.
Beginning Force Points: As described in SR Companion, with the removal of the limitation of 50 total. All Force points bought at 25,000 nuyen / point.
Cyberware: Characters can't buy Delta grade, without a danged good story. No cyberzombies.
Initiations: Can buy initiations, at full, non magical group price.
These are some general guidelines I'm considering. Just wished to get your thoughts...
Full Version: 'Experienced' PC character generation point costs
| QUOTE (Gordon) |
| Magic: As described in SR Companion. No changes. (Idle thought: wasn't there a variant magic priority pricing guide that was created by a member of this forum several months back? I wonder how that worked out) |
I think Sphynx did that. It's probably on his website, but I don't have the URL -- I just click it from his signature.
Just increase the amount of BP each character starts with.
The only problem is allowing adepts to buy Initiation -- the simple, non-Canon fix is to allow them to buy Spell Points with starting funds and convert them to Karma for purposes of initiation.
-Siege
The only problem is allowing adepts to buy Initiation -- the simple, non-Canon fix is to allow them to buy Spell Points with starting funds and convert them to Karma for purposes of initiation.
-Siege
IMHO, it works best to use standard builds, then give them whatever karma and cash they "earned" after the fact.
In my game, one of my beginning players dropped her sorceror (her first character) to play a physical adept (which better suited her style). After the character was done and approved, I gave her the 35 karma her character had earned. She buffed some skills and initiated, once I think.
I think this worked a lot better than just giving her more build points.
In my game, one of my beginning players dropped her sorceror (her first character) to play a physical adept (which better suited her style). After the character was done and approved, I gave her the 35 karma her character had earned. She buffed some skills and initiated, once I think.
I think this worked a lot better than just giving her more build points.
Found it. Sphyx's Alternative BP system. I can't speak for success or failure of this system, having not used it, though.
| QUOTE |
| Just increase the amount of BP each character starts with. The only problem is allowing adepts to buy Initiation -- the simple, non-Canon fix is to allow them to buy Spell Points with starting funds and convert them to Karma for purposes of initiation |
Yeah, that's what I was thinking on the Initiations; allow characters to buy Initiations through use of Spell Points/Force Points (at 25k
apiece), and then 1:1 conversion to Karma.I'm idly considering a BP budget of 300, but plan on making up a few characters with that budget first to see how well it works out.
| QUOTE |
| "In my game, one of my beginning players dropped her sorceror (her first character) to play a physical adept (which better suited her style). After the character was done and approved, I gave her the 35 karma her character had earned. She buffed some skills and initiated, once I think. I think this worked a lot better than just giving her more build points" |
Actually, that's a very good point as well. Hmm. I wonder what would be considered an appropriate 'Karma' budget to start characters that 'ran' for say, five years? I suppose I could ask the players to show me their original characters' Karma pools, take the median score, and figure starting Karma to be that number x 10, but I can see some issues cropping up there.
Or you could just use BeCKS, which has all kinds of rule suggestions built in for just this purpose.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Or you could just use BeCKS, which has all kinds of rule suggestions built in for just this purpose. |
Oh ho! I see BeCKS went a major revision....I think that this might suit my purposes nicely...Thanks!
The more I think of, the Building point stuff is just asking for trouble...either the 'standard' creation plus Karma point budget or BeCKS is more likely to create tough, but more down to earth characters.
And I like the premise of BeCKS (higher atts and skills tend to be rarer, which is as it should be) much better.
BeCKS should make my players happy too, since it will let them go for them Attribute Maximums, but they're gonna pay out the wazoo for 'em.
Thanks for everybody's input!
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Or you could just use BeCKS, which has all kinds of rule suggestions built in for just this purpose. |
I agree with AE. BECKS would be a much better and easier choice in this situation. That's what I'm requiring new characters to be built with in my game since most players have hit the 300-400 karma level.
| QUOTE |
| Found it. Sphyx's Alternative BP system. I can't speak for success or failure of this system, having not used it, though. |
Actually, based on the calculator for piecemail Magic BP purchases, has there been any update to BeCKs to account for piecemeal magic acquisition?
I couldn't find one if there is...
| QUOTE (Gordon) | ||
Actually, based on the calculator for piecemail Magic BP purchases, has there been any update to BeCKs to account for piecemeal magic acquisition? I couldn't find one if there is... |
I don't know if I quite understand your question. Everything in BECKS is done via karma, plus nuyen resources, so everything is bought with karma and nuyen, be it foci or spells.
Sorry...what I meant was that there was a BP calculator posted in this thread where all aspects of being 'Awakened' were given BP costs, including:
1. the basic ability to use magic in the first place (also, granting the character an initial Magic Rating of 1)
2. Additional Magic Points (beyond 1)
3. The ability to Astrally Perceive
4. The ability to Astrally Project
5. Three different levels of Sorcery use (Spell Defense Only, 1 Type only, unrestricted)
6. Three different levels of Conjuration (Banishing/Watcher spirits only, summoning an Ally, Unrestricted)
7. Adept Powers
8. Power Points
Sphynx created it...I was just wondering if that was ever correlated to BeCKS...
Not a big deal; merely curious.
1. the basic ability to use magic in the first place (also, granting the character an initial Magic Rating of 1)
2. Additional Magic Points (beyond 1)
3. The ability to Astrally Perceive
4. The ability to Astrally Project
5. Three different levels of Sorcery use (Spell Defense Only, 1 Type only, unrestricted)
6. Three different levels of Conjuration (Banishing/Watcher spirits only, summoning an Ally, Unrestricted)
7. Adept Powers
8. Power Points
Sphynx created it...I was just wondering if that was ever correlated to BeCKS...
Not a big deal; merely curious.
| QUOTE (Gordon) |
| Sorry...what I meant was that there was a BP calculator posted in this thread where all aspects of being 'Awakened' were given BP costs, including: 1. the basic ability to use magic in the first place (also, granting the character an initial Magic Rating of 1) 2. Additional Magic Points (beyond 1) 3. The ability to Astrally Perceive 4. The ability to Astrally Project 5. Three different levels of Sorcery use (Spell Defense Only, 1 Type only, unrestricted) 6. Three different levels of Conjuration (Banishing/Watcher spirits only, summoning an Ally, Unrestricted) 7. Adept Powers 8. Power Points Sphynx created it...I was just wondering if that was ever correlated to BeCKS... Not a big deal; merely curious. |
OHHHHH. I don't have Becks in front of me, but I believe it does.
Might give some kind of example of how experienced youre looking for, because 300 build points is *insane*. Simply doing 150 BP would be a rather experienced character, but for one who was retired and probably near the top of his game 200 may be a better figure. But man, past 200, I mean thats talking like characters with probably a min of 300 karma and 2 mil nuyen banked... which is fine if thats what youre expecting. Figure with 123 BP a character can get 5 in attributes, 5 in 6 or 7 skills, 1 mil nuyen, and can probably cram magic in there especially if they take less cash. 200 BP is like another 1 mil nuyen, plus 50 more skillpoints... huge jump there.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Might give some kind of example of how experienced youre looking for, because 300 build points is *insane*. Simply doing 150 BP would be a rather experienced character, but for one who was retired and probably near the top of his game 200 may be a better figure. But man, past 200, I mean thats talking like characters with probably a min of 300 karma and 2 mil nuyen banked... which is fine if thats what youre expecting. Figure with 123 BP a character can get 5 in attributes, 5 in 6 or 7 skills, 1 mil nuyen, and can probably cram magic in there especially if they take less cash. 200 BP is like another 1 mil nuyen, plus 50 more skillpoints... huge jump there. |
No problem.
The background is that the players I am GMing have either played 1e or 2e Shadowrun, and I am in the process of starting a campaign from scratch.
One of the ideas I'm kicking around is along the lines of 'these guys have played earlier versions, why not start with the basis that they're pulling their characters outta 'semiretirement' and re-entering the shadows in the brave new world described in SR III?'
Now, SR 1 was set in 2050; SR 2 was set in 2057. SR 3 starts out in 2060, but has moved to 2063 with the current sourcebooks.
For basis of how long these PCs have been around, I'm assuming that they 'ran' during the period between 2050 and 2058 or so, and have been 'out of the loop' for the last 5 years.
So, if I go ahead with this type of campaign, I'm assuming that -- as a rule of thumb -- all PCs average out to about 3 years of active 'running experience' (some of them may be higher, but I'm assuming that the years in retirement would have dulled the ol' skills and attributes somewhat).
Based on review of BeCKS, I'm thinking of giving each at least 425 Karma points, plus an additional 'uplift' to account for their experience. One of the sample characters described in BeCKS was built on 750 Karma, which strikes me as verrry experienced. Probably more on the order of say, 550 seems somewhat more appropriate for the game I have in mind. Perhaps 600.
I'm pretty much giving up on the Building Points route...
Well, IMHO, if you were going to restart a game I was playing in, and I got to use an old character, Id be extatic. But if you told me I had 500+ karma to play with, Id lose all excitiment and ask what the point is. At least for me.
On that premise, Id say the runners were in the shadows for 8 years. At one run per month average, at 10 grand a run profit, and 5 karma per run, figure they pulled in 960,000 nuyen and 480 karma. Definatly a good place to retire.
So then they spent 5 years off, enjoying retirement. Figure rent probably cost them half their cash, leaving about 450,000 left. Also, they probably lost some of their edge, so say maybe they have an effective 300 karma to spend, about 2/3rds of their skill, so a bit rusty all round. After all, 8 years on, 5 years off... thats a long time to be away from the action relative to how long they were in it.
Then Id just have them build the characters as normal, then spend the cash and karma extra as per normal advancement, with a few provisions.
No skill over 7, as 8+ is considered world class. They may well have been world class at the time, but 5 years off is going to dull that. They may be good but no longer in that league.
No delta-ware. As technology progressed anything that used to be delta is now beta by todays standards, explaining the loss if the old guys had it. Also, Genetech and Nanotech are unavailable, as they werent invented yet.
For Magic, your best guess for power level, but I would say no one over grade 6. Grade 6 is pretty high, without really being obscene, and at double the starting strength thats about where others will be relative to starting I think. Plus it lets them be big without having nowhere to go, again IMO.
Hope that helps.
On that premise, Id say the runners were in the shadows for 8 years. At one run per month average, at 10 grand a run profit, and 5 karma per run, figure they pulled in 960,000 nuyen and 480 karma. Definatly a good place to retire.
So then they spent 5 years off, enjoying retirement. Figure rent probably cost them half their cash, leaving about 450,000 left. Also, they probably lost some of their edge, so say maybe they have an effective 300 karma to spend, about 2/3rds of their skill, so a bit rusty all round. After all, 8 years on, 5 years off... thats a long time to be away from the action relative to how long they were in it.
Then Id just have them build the characters as normal, then spend the cash and karma extra as per normal advancement, with a few provisions.
No skill over 7, as 8+ is considered world class. They may well have been world class at the time, but 5 years off is going to dull that. They may be good but no longer in that league.
No delta-ware. As technology progressed anything that used to be delta is now beta by todays standards, explaining the loss if the old guys had it. Also, Genetech and Nanotech are unavailable, as they werent invented yet.
For Magic, your best guess for power level, but I would say no one over grade 6. Grade 6 is pretty high, without really being obscene, and at double the starting strength thats about where others will be relative to starting I think. Plus it lets them be big without having nowhere to go, again IMO.
Hope that helps.
Side note: the only reason characters are being created from scratch is because we're a bunch of 'old farts' and been outta the game for a while, and I doubt all of them have their old character sheets anymore. 
Part of the beauty of the concept (in my mind at least) is the fact that a bunch of old 'gaming was better in my day' SR players will be getting together, rebuilding some of our favorite characters, and playing them into a world that has largely 'left them behind'.
And what with all the sourcebooks and junk that occurred between SR II and SRIII, there's going to be quite a 'culture shock' and 'back in my day' good-natured grumbling. I expect it will aid in the roleplaying experience.
I plan on getting them in the mood of 'reintroduction', at least initially by having such events as young turks messing with them, "Oh, so you're Ciphermage. My older brother used to talk about you a lot when I was growing up. The way he described you, you were well, more scary. Not such a doddering old fart!"
Think Lethal Weapon 4: yes, the characters are pretty competent. But they're rapidly approaching the point where they're 'getting too old for this'.
Part of the beauty of the concept (in my mind at least) is the fact that a bunch of old 'gaming was better in my day' SR players will be getting together, rebuilding some of our favorite characters, and playing them into a world that has largely 'left them behind'.
And what with all the sourcebooks and junk that occurred between SR II and SRIII, there's going to be quite a 'culture shock' and 'back in my day' good-natured grumbling. I expect it will aid in the roleplaying experience.
I plan on getting them in the mood of 'reintroduction', at least initially by having such events as young turks messing with them, "Oh, so you're Ciphermage. My older brother used to talk about you a lot when I was growing up. The way he described you, you were well, more scary. Not such a doddering old fart!"
Think Lethal Weapon 4: yes, the characters are pretty competent. But they're rapidly approaching the point where they're 'getting too old for this'.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Might give some kind of example of how experienced youre looking for, because 300 build points is *insane*. Simply doing 150 BP would be a rather experienced character, but for one who was retired and probably near the top of his game 200 may be a better figure. But man, past 200, I mean thats talking like characters with probably a min of 300 karma and 2 mil nuyen banked... which is fine if thats what youre expecting. Figure with 123 BP a character can get 5 in attributes, 5 in 6 or 7 skills, 1 mil nuyen, and can probably cram magic in there especially if they take less cash. 200 BP is like another 1 mil nuyen, plus 50 more skillpoints... huge jump there. |
That's why becks or build point plus karma is probably the better route to go, since you have a better grasp on how much karma they are getting that way.
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