I confess I never learned the magic system prior to SR4. I seem to recall the rules for summoning spirits being very different, though. Shamans could summon their totem spirit anywhere (if the spirit feels like showing up), but Hermetics had some complicated restrictions about what spirits would show up where, and where they could travel. Something like a Street Spirit wouldn't go into a building, and a Building Spirit won't go out in the street?

Do any of the 'Shockers out there remember what the rules were, and why they were changed? I ask only because of all the time I spend beating my head against the strategic nightmare of summoning in SR4.

Hermetics had no limits on where the spirit or elemental as they were called, showed up. But they had to use a summoning ritual like the current binding ritual to get them. They basically worked like bound spirits do now, including cost.
A shaman could summon a spirit anywhere but could only have one at a time and it was domain dependent. He could have city spirits in the streets but would need to switch to a hearth spirit for a house and change to a water spirit if he moved onto the ocean. I think the domain rules went smallest domain had precedent over a larger. So city spirits would come before sky spirits for example and hearth before city. Shamans also had more spirit types to call on and more varied powers. Elementals were generally just good for killing things. Spirits couldn't really fight as well but had lots of other useful powers, like search, concealment, fear and others.
If you want more detail, just get one of the SR1-3 core rule books. They didn't change much from version to version.

Basically, Shaman could only Summon Spirits and Mages could only Bind Spirits in SR4 terms. The spirits summoned by Shaman tended to be more powerful (or, to be more correct, had a cooler array of powers to choose from) but had more limitations as mentioned above, whereas elementals summoned by Mages were more limited in powers but could be used anywhere and anytime. There was a ridiculous tax on elementals due to the costs for binding which Shaman never had to pay, which is likely why they finally decided to change it in SR4 so all magicians could perform both.

It used to be an issue for me, too, so I was really happy to see the change. I much prefer the flavor of hermetic magic but hated how elementals were described and treated. I still can't figure out why, from game system to game system, wizards, magicians, sorcerers, etc. all summon elementals. What real world magic system is that even based on???

Some vague association to the Greeks and Aristotle? The Celts? I don't know but lots of different beliefs out there use some variation of the elements to assign various attributes to seasons, personalities or attributes. Or maybe its a hold over from the cancer mages of DnD. Who knows? It sounded good back in '89 when the only other magic I was used to came in the form of a magic missile.

Hermetic Magic (read: Golden Dawn)

No, they study the four classical elements, but they don't 'summon elementals.' If anything, they deal more with Guidance Spirits and the like. In fact, they share more in common with the Path of the Wheel than than they do Hermetic Magic (the tradition in the game) as far as their actual magical beliefs go (sans the elemental spirits).

In fact, I'm honestly not aware of a single real world type of magic that deals with the elementals presented in RPGs short of general classifications for the fey folk (gnomes, undines, etc.). And even then they're nothing like what you get in an RPG with goofy living-pillars-of-flame or walking-boulder-men.

The basic hermetic magic relies on the 5 core elements (fire, water, earth, air, aether), symbolized in the pentacle. The closest SR equivalents would be elemantal spirits and spirits of man.

Naturally, over the course of almost a century, a lot of new paradigms have been added to the practices of "modern" hermetic mages, blatantly ripping off other religions to fetter their own system. Especialy guidance spirits (as Shadowrun understands them) wouldn't fit into the hermetic system at all, unless you are talking about gestalt entities/group psychogons and even then the SR concept of the guidance spirit would fall short.
If you were refering to "meetings with the moon goddess" or qabbalistic astral voyages through the Sephiroth you'd be closer to Totems or "Mentor Spirits", to use a SR term.
Also, Clan Totems/Group psychogons have a rather different connotation than "Guidance Spirits".

Last but not least, the summoning of elemntal representation is a core element of the single most basic Golden dawn Ritual: The lesser Ritual of the Pentagramm. It invokes the four elements air, earth, fire and water as direct representations. That is the closes you will ever get to "summoning an elemental spirit" in "real magic(k)".

I wasted over a decade of my life on that nonsense. I know a few things about it.

<sighs>

Again, believing in and studying the classical elements (and even then, that is mostly just in alchemy even in the Golden Dawn and the Corpus Hermeticum) does not equate to summoning or even communicating with pillars-of-living-flame or walking-boulder-men, let alone believing them to be sentient, living beings, which is what fantasy RPGs refer to as elementals. I'm not aware of any real magical belief system that believe in such things. It seems to be an almost entirely RPG-constructed mentality, but one that for some bizarre reason or another is considered the normal way of such things.

Stop the condescending sighs, you prick! You asked a question and I am answering it.
No magical tradition in the real world does actually summon anything. It is not about what they do, it is about what they believe they do. In the LBRP the Magician is meant to actually summon the four elementals/archangels. They are meant to be physically present entities. You are supposed to feel the wind, the air, the moisture and the earthen smell out of the four cardinal points. For all intents and purposes, the four elements are supposed to be evoked entities (similar to demonic evocations).
That is what the hermetic model in SR is based on: evoked representations of the elemental forces.

<shrugs> I didn't realize Auriel was a walking-boulder-man or that Gabriel was a globule-of-sentient-water. I'd, personally, label them more as Guardian or Guidance Spirits as previously mentioned, but that's neither here nor there. Regardless, maybe you should consider getting over the notion that believing in the classical elements is the same thing as summoning and controlling the elementals as presented in the RPGs before you start going off again. Since, you know, they're two completely different mentalities. And I'm still not aware of any real world magic system that believes in anything close to things like pillars-of-living-flame or conscience-whirlwinds-of-destruction, let alone being able to summon them forth and commanding them to do your bidding. Which, yet again, is what "elementals" in fantasy RPGs refer to, especially with their default hermeticy magic systems.

As opposed to, you know, beliefs in things like the angels, demons, loa, golems, or the fey folk.

What you label them as is irrelevant. They are representations of elemental "forces". You might want to read through the descriptions of guidance spirits and guardian spirits again.


That is exactly what the LBRP does!


Magicians use different visualizations for their elemental representations. A lot of mages just don't like working with the judeo-christian system, so they substitute the visualization as archangels with other forms of representation (drawn from other religions/mythologies or even their own imagination).
That said: the description of elemntals in SR, especially in street magic already states that the forms may vary. You cited the "most common" form, which is most likely based on the attempt to keep their forms neutral. In an area that is already heavily ladden with debate and hastility when it comes to the "proper appearance" this seems the most plausible case. Another possible reason is that fanatsy writers like the emotional impact of pure elemental forces. It gets the point across much better to have a pillar of plame standing there, instead of a winged humanoid with a sword. Especially since "Pillar of Flame" reminds a lot of people of God.

As far as the "belief in pillars of flame" go. If the bible is not enough for you, there are always Astral Voyages to the elemental Sephiroth.

When the Shadowrun magic system was being written we made a conscious effort not to be more specific about visualizations of the elemental powers, but D2F is pretty well dead on target. Yes, there is something rather gamey about SR's elemental manifestations, but it is built on a foundation of the hermetic tradition and the beliefs of the Golden Dawn. I think I am remembering correctly that it was said at one point that the manifestations capable in the real world were limited because the mana curve hadn't reached 2011 levels yet.

TomD

Wow, Tom Dowd himself? You guys got some serious summoning skills!

Regarding antropomorphic elementals, there are the Jinni (Genies) and Ifrit of the mystic Islam, which had some impact on western hermeticism.
Medieval and renaissance mages often obsessed over creating Homunculi, for which some formulas list an elemental spirit as key ingredient. Also, the Golem of Prague.
I guess the current idea of elements was inspired by all these sources, in one way or another.

I'd rather count him a very high force free spirit that got curious =)

I just recently started playing 4th - it took me a while to get past the 'feel' of some of the changes - and I admit that overall, it's been a pleasant change. The rules 'streamlining' has made it very easy for some Shadowrun-newbies in the group to pick up and flow with in general - but one of the aspects that I continue to have some issues with is the homogenization of 'Mages' and 'Shaman'.

I understand why it was done, and that "It's my own game, I can do what I want" - but I profoundly miss the 'feel' of dealing with spirit domains and that kind of horror(not-ED) element of dealing with a powerful shaman/spirit and making a break for the safety-zone/'edge' of a spirit's domain. Kind of like using different corp's Extraterritoriality against each other.

Are there any SR vets/houserulers with advice/experience on re-integrating spirit domains into SR4A? The open-nature of the shaman is nice now, but advice on retaining the feel w/o too much limitation? A happy balance?

(Sorry for the Necro, but this seemed the most appropriate thread)

Well there are rules for magical background. When particular spirits spend along time in an area, they tend to change the background magic. What you could do, is restrain the summoning/sorcery skills of your NPC shamans, and give them the bonuses for the background favoring their magic.

This means that, if your party runs away from the area once they are outside that magical background the spirit and the shaman stop getting huge bonuses to their magic. Making them less dangerous.
Additionally magical background will give the mages in your party negative modifiers on their magic totals, if they are from a different tradition.