I know there have been references to orks and trolls having shortened lifespans...but I've had no luck finding a definite answer, anyone no how long they each live. I seem to recall goblinized ones had human lifespans, but I've got a PC who wants to play an older troll born metahuman, and I want to be accurate with the age

I think it's about 60 years for orks, 50 years for trolls.

That is due to average living standards, not longevity.

The same table that gives the average lifespan for orcs as 35-40 also gives only a 55 for a worldwide average for ordinary humans.

It's kind of hard to tell whether that's the range of their maximum natural lifespan or whether, like humans, they can easily live another 20 -25 years longer than the average given good living conditions and access to modern medicine.

Cool, that gives me something to go by...the player was worried about cutting his career short by picking too old an age for his character. Thanks everyone.

The data in the core rules makes about as much sense as the xtuplet child bearth of the average Ork or Tamagochis

- On the average larger animals tend to be longer lived than smaller ones
- Human average lifespan is a good example for the "how to not use statistics"

- Say 100 people are borne to a population
- 70 die within the first 5 years
- 30 life to an old age of say 60
=> Average life span is about 22 years[1]

- Human average lifespan is heavily influenced by food supply and living circumstances[3]
- Orks are basically human stock
- Orks are actually not that much bigger than humans
- Human have problems to give birth to any litter greater than two. Twins have a 15-20 percent chance to be borne early, Triplets are even higher and all bigger litter basically always come early, often in the 7th month, requiring intensiv care[2]

So either the Orks are not breeding as fast as the book says (makes more sense for me, give them a longer life) or they have a large amount of miscarriages that make it into the statistic[4] (Would fit with the "Orks are low class" idea)

As for Trolls, well with all those deformities they should have quite a few problems with childberth.


Michael



[1] That is why some books still claim that 30 was a "ripe old age" in the (not so dark) medival times
[2] Quite often doctors suggest partial abortion with quadruplets and higher so that 2-3 of the embryos might become children (Yes, for me life starts when they can breath, drink and shit unassisted)
[3] Malnourishment increases the chance for disease. For a 20th century example consider the 1918s flue (far more "effective" in malnourished germany)
[4] Depending on country nothing before 7th/8th month of carriage is normaly taken in

From what I remember (sorry, can't give quotes right now) average lifespans of metahumans, as stated in R3, are 'limited' as follows:

Humans - worldwide, due to low average in 3rd world countries
Trolls - same as humans
Orks - this value is not only the world average, it is the average everywhere (partly due to poor living, partly due to physiology). This is also why orks breed as quickly as they do (in usual, nature makes sure that the shorter lived species multiply faster). I believe most official and semi-official sources state that orks grow old around 30.

This is for those born as orks though - those goblinized stick to human lifespans.

In 'Never Trust an Elf', a major plot device is the contrast of Elvish and Ork lifespans. That Elves tended to look like they were in their teens at 30, and that Orks were 'old' by 30....

There are repeated references -- from Kham the Ork's viewpoint -- that UCAS society just isn't set up to deal with the much shorter lived races. IIRC, the novel said that Kham, as a 15 or 16 year old, while considered a 'full adult' in Ork terms (and he may have had kids at that point, I don't recall fully), wasn't legally able to drink or vote.... And that Orks tended to experience an accelerated version of Alzheimers somewhere after their 30th birthday.

I also remember reading about the troll German nation that they mature earlier and one was bitching about being able to drink when he's middle-aged.

This is one of the subjects that they've never given a 'canon' answer for, actually. They suggest that Orks and Trolls are shorter-lived, but in many places also suggest that's just a statistical anomaly due to living conditions or lifestyle (both in-character and out of character).

I don't think they WANT to give a hard and fast answer, because they don't want to radically mess with any individual GM's perspective. It's the same reason they've never given a concrete answer on how old an 'average' elf will get to be. It may be slightly longer (120 years or so) than an average human or it could be a LOT longer. But there's no place where it's concretely stated and not contradicted elsewhere.

Personally, I play that barring mitigating circumstances, the following are the maximum ages to remain mobile and active in society - with medical care that's decent and taking care of yourself. It IS the 2060s, after all.

Human, 100 years. Yay, medical advances.
Elf, 120-140 years. I don't see why elves should live for longer than this, though I vaccilate on how long they do live.
Ork, 80 years. Larger physical size means more power, but more strain on internal organs due to increased workload.
Troll, 65 years. See above.
Dwarf, 100-110 years. Never did decide on this one.

Vaguely off-topic: How do shapeshifters (Awakened animals) age?

It's bothering me.

another note, it's only 2063, awakening and goblinization was what 2011, so how do we have any Idea what the "average" lifespan of any (except humans) of the races are? we only have, what, 52 years of data?

-Mike R.

in SR2 and SR1 - yes, I know, it might've changed - metaoblic studies were used to predict lifespans and elf tests came back 'inconclusive'. Certainly in the novels, UGE-orks (as opposed to born-orks) are OLD by 40. Like, wrinkled, arthritis, senile OLD. UGE orks & trolls live normal human lifespans, which is why there's that one ork in DNA/DOA who was around during the night of rage and is grizzled as opposed to ancient.

In SR3 this might've changed (and indeed I'm pretty sure it is stated somewhere that the average ages do factor in lifestyle so the true lifespan may be a bit higher, but I'd still say not much more than a decade or so), but I quite like the idea that they breed high and live short. Yes, lots of them would die young because of their living conditions, but even those in corporate circles with nice lifestyles would still age and die much younger than their human counterparts. It always makes a nice goal for an ork character as well - 'I want to get enough money together for leonisation treatment for me and my four siblings...'

Yeah, But that is just a Fascist society brainwashing their youth into thinking that they are the elites of the world. "Hey we'll live longer than the rest of you, because we eat dandellions."

Don't forget that elves can live forever if you want Blood Queen anyone

I tend to figure that the "OMG orks are old at 30" thing is just an example of novel authors not understanding statistics... specifically, the difference between "mean" and "median". Average lifespans will include infant mortality and deaths due to violence, illness, accident, privation, etc. All of those factors are going to be aggravated by the social and economic effects of widespread discrimination against orks and the ork tendency towards multiple births, which will drag the average ork lifespan down. I figure an ork at 45, though he may have beaten the odds on not getting killed in a gang war, or dying of starvation or childhood illness because his mother couldn't afford basic food and medical care for he and his twelve siblings on her sub-minimum-wage job, or getting bombed out by a Humanis wacko, is probably not any older in terms of natural lifespan than a human at 55. Given decent medical care and living conditions, he could probably expect to live into his 60s, at least.

Same goes for trolls, though to a lesser extent... they don't have the multiple birth complication, and they're tough enough to survive incidents that'd kill any other metatype outright. On the other hand, a troll will likely starve in short order on a diet that anyone else would consider more than adequate.

As far as elves and dwarves go, I figure the dwarf lifespan is: "Long enough that the player'll die before the character's age becomes a problem," and elves are, "Even longer." Barring a few statistical aberrations, none of them are going to be much older than 50, which is still fairly young for a dwarf, and just getting started for an elf. I don't think this has had enough time to really sink in for them, either... the oldest have human peers who are starting to slow down, but they haven't yet reached the point where they're attending their childhood friends' funerals while still looking like teenagers. Give them another couple decades and attitudes will probably start changing...

I was thinking about this, too, since I have a player who's playing a 40-something elf. One of the first elves born, in fact. Just.. thinking.

I like the breed fast and die young. It really gives the metatypes a different feeling.

Indeed. One of those tough-to-remember bits.

~J

This discussion is interesting, but, I wanted to make an additional statement. It seems to me, that the reduced life spans for Trolls and Orcs, directly affects their lowered intelligence rating. If you had only 35-40 years of life, your neural processing network would reach its peak effinciency at about 18-24 years of age. Now, while you may have the same exposure to stimuli as Humans, Dwarves, or Elves, you don't have the same time to process all that information, your life zips by at an alarming rate. Also, the most important years for developing mental capabilities are the first 6, right? If you reach adulthood at 15, that gives you only 3-4 years of infancy, greatly reducing your capacity for Language and Complex thought patterns. I had never really thought about this before this post, so I thought that I would share...

Interesting... I may have to ask some of my more neuroscience-oriented friends about this... it's a potentially very valid point.

~J

Bölverk, his comment is about a reduced prepubescent period. Elves reach physical maturity at the same age as humans, meaning they get no benefit from an elongated prepubescent period.

But, if Orks and Trolls intellect was adversely affected by the shortened infant stages, would those ork and trolls that are born human and express at puburty have the same average intelligence scores as humans since they had the same amount of formative years?

I understand why the races in SR are set up as they are (game balance) but Nikoli makes a very valid point. If you are going on the assumption that the length of your adolescence directly affects your intelligence (a more or less proven fact, I believe) then why would "Goblinized” trolls suffer from an intelligence drop? I suppose you could make an argument for trauma to the brain from sudden growth or a change in the pressure of cerebral fluid (maybe some minor hemorrhaging?), but that would be highly variable across the board. This begs the question why are non-"Goblinized" trolls (and to a lesser extent orks) assumed to be less intelligent (as stated in the game). Personally, I think it's probably assumed to be a combination of faster metabolic rates and less access to the educational infrastructure (i.e.: it's hard to go to school when you have to start working at 12 to support you brother/sister/mother), but I think it’s a valid point to discuss. Then again, it is just a game.

One could always argue that Goblinization does have lasting tramatic effects on the majority of chaged. Those not so affected would have higher Int from a roleplaying aspect even though one would need to pay for it with points.

I just say Goblinized orks and trolls have lowered intelligence due to the trauma of their bodies rearranging themselves, born orks and trolls have it due to a shortened prepubescence. The edge I'd make would ba a +6(ork)/+12(troll) edge, Smooth Gobliniziation.

OOMA Writeup.

Smooth Gobliniziation.
Wether because of a genetic trait, or because of effective medical treatment during Goblinization the character does not show many of she same problems that other goblinized characters do. The still take the modifiers at character generation, but their Max rating is still the same as a normal human for mental stats. (This edge can stack with the exceptional attribute edge)

Is there an SR 4 in the works? This may account for the problems I am having tracking down certain SR books.

~The Hundred Armed

No.