I was wondering:
Everybody seems to have a number of houserules for various aspects of Shadowrun. A lot of energy is turned into heat and bytes over those rules.
Wouldn't it be easier/better to use this energies and change the game system to something more stable that was from the start designed with stuff like vehicles/drones etc in mind?
Systems like:
GURPS 3rd Ed
Hero 5th Ed
Fuzion 5.x
come to mind.
Michael
Full Version: All those houserules
I very, very, much doubt that changing system would change the need for house rules. Everyone has different tastes when it comes to realism, lethality, and everything else really... Changing system would just change what needed to be houseruled and mean a helluva lot of work converting stats in a manner that keeps them balanced.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| I very, very, much doubt that changing system would change the need for house rules. Everyone has different tastes when it comes to realism, lethality, and everything else really... Changing system would just change what needed to be houseruled and mean a helluva lot of work converting stats in a manner that keeps them balanced. |
I am not thinking of another of those "How to convert an existing characted to system X".
I'd rather prefer something like "let us take System X and use the following supplements/rules" starting with new characters. Yes, that means loosing the pre-backed adventures and archetypes but I can easily life with that. Most games provide their own archetypes to be used.
Let's make an example (GURPS)[1]:
- Character generation, including mages/cyberware: Covered (Base, Magic, UltraTech/Cyberpunk)
- Magic in the modern world: Covered (Technomancer)
- Spell magic: Covered (Magic/Grimoire/Technomancer)
- Spirits&Astral: ??? (Does someone know?)
Sure, I have no stats for Damien Knight/Ghostwalker but honestly, how many groups really need those? Statistics for security guards and mages are there as are enough gadgets to make everyone happy.
The job would be to sort through all the stuff and decide what is there (i.e. Fireball/Ex-Fireball spell) and what is not (i.e. Teleportation spell)
Michael
[1] I am aware of the GURPS->SR conversions. They try IMHO the wrong thing, pressing SR game mechanics (mostly Magic) into GURPS instead of just using "pure" GURPS.
Just to point out teleportation is covered in MitS, it says it can not be done. Along with a few other things.
But like Lilt said, some people play SR differently then others. We for instence play cultured Bioware does not effect magic, were others use the rules in the books and errata saying it effects magic virtually. Which means if they change the rules to fit my game, others will have to house rule it to the way it is now, but since it is that way now I have to house rule it to fit my game.
The same with initiative, I don't like the third edition rules for it so we still use the second edition rules for initiative.
House rules are house rules, some things need to be fixed, like some will complian vehicles are all or nothing when it comes to damage. No matter what they do to fix it a bunch of people will still house rule it.
But like Lilt said, some people play SR differently then others. We for instence play cultured Bioware does not effect magic, were others use the rules in the books and errata saying it effects magic virtually. Which means if they change the rules to fit my game, others will have to house rule it to the way it is now, but since it is that way now I have to house rule it to fit my game.
The same with initiative, I don't like the third edition rules for it so we still use the second edition rules for initiative.
House rules are house rules, some things need to be fixed, like some will complian vehicles are all or nothing when it comes to damage. No matter what they do to fix it a bunch of people will still house rule it.
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux) |
| Just to point out teleportation is covered in MitS, it says it can not be done. Along with a few other things. But like Lilt said, some people play SR differently then others. We for instence play cultured Bioware does not effect magic, were others use the rules in the books and errata saying it effects magic virtually. Which means if they change the rules to fit my game, others will have to house rule it to the way it is now, but since it is that way now I have to house rule it to fit my game. The same with initiative, I don't like the third edition rules for it so we still use the second edition rules for initiative. House rules are house rules, some things need to be fixed, like some will complian vehicles are all or nothing when it comes to damage. No matter what they do to fix it a bunch of people will still house rule it. |
Think you might get me wrong[1]. You have to go through the new! rules system (i.e everything but Shadowrun) and decide what pieces of the new system exist and what not. The example meant that the Teleport spell that exists in GURPS would not be allowed if you play in the SR universe using GURPS rules.
The basic idea was:
Won't it be easier to use a better system (and IMHO there are few worse systems than SR) and lessen the number of houserules necessary to play in the SR universe (which is "nice")
Michael
[1] Civilised people speak German!
Nobody has more words for fight&battle
You change the system to something new, fine. People are instinctive animals and will return to what they know best. Short term effect = more house rules in new system as people try to recapture the 'essence' of SR. Long term effect = You will have SR in a new game system and it will have around the same number of house rules as you have now.
As an example of the above take a look at D&D. Through all the different editions you still have a ton of house rules. Convert it to another format and you would still have people making house rules to suit their campaigns.
End point is if your playing a Game and don't like the house rules don't play. If you never GM and only play then don't complain, do something about it. Start your own campaign and don't use house rules. (or use those that fit you!)
As an example of the above take a look at D&D. Through all the different editions you still have a ton of house rules. Convert it to another format and you would still have people making house rules to suit their campaigns.
End point is if your playing a Game and don't like the house rules don't play. If you never GM and only play then don't complain, do something about it. Start your own campaign and don't use house rules. (or use those that fit you!)
| QUOTE (Wu Jen) |
| You change the system to something new, fine. People are instinctive animals and will return to what they know best. Short term effect = more house rules in new system as people try to recapture the 'essence' of SR. Long term effect = You will have SR in a new game system and it will have around the same number of house rules as you have now. As an example of the above take a look at D&D. Through all the different editions you still have a ton of house rules. Convert it to another format and you would still have people making house rules to suit their campaigns. End point is if your playing a Game and don't like the house rules don't play. If you never GM and only play then don't complain, do something about it. Start your own campaign and don't use house rules. (or use those that fit you!) |
Actually I am playing a game (occasionaly I even GM) and don't like the rules engine! House roules are just "dressing on the bodyly wastes"
Michael
I agree that SR would be better under a different system and would require fewer house rules to be playable. I don't know GURPS, but I do know HERO 5th and d20. HERO 5th is the best rules system I know of, would probably capture the feel of the game best, and allows for all those fun things that players like to do (including headshots) with plenty of lethality.
I don't buy the completely speculative argument that everyone would houserule any system at least as much as they do SR3. I don't have house rules for any system other than SR3, largely because I don't need them. Good game systems are playable without house rules. They're usually "good" because they went through adequate playtesting and strived to maintain game balance. When rule changes happen to good systems, they only happen because there was a clear problem and the proposed change worked better during extensive playtesting. Bad systems rely on gimmicks, stubborn players, and imbalance (to draw powergamers in). They also usually fail to test adeqautely and/or fail to alter problems after they've been found.
I don't buy the completely speculative argument that everyone would houserule any system at least as much as they do SR3. I don't have house rules for any system other than SR3, largely because I don't need them. Good game systems are playable without house rules. They're usually "good" because they went through adequate playtesting and strived to maintain game balance. When rule changes happen to good systems, they only happen because there was a clear problem and the proposed change worked better during extensive playtesting. Bad systems rely on gimmicks, stubborn players, and imbalance (to draw powergamers in). They also usually fail to test adeqautely and/or fail to alter problems after they've been found.
I have played rpgs since 1979, I have never seen a list of rules published that will encompass every possible situation, thus the first house rules come up, other house rules represent individual tastes, or flavors as I like to call them. Now no rule system is perfect, we may think so but that just means you know that system very well and are comfortable running it. But every rule system imposes a certain flavor to the game. These mechanics do as much to make a game different from the next as the story and background does. Now games put out revisions to the rules as much to improve their systems(many of these improvements were at one time house rules either submitted by the players and adopted or used by the game designers themselves.) as they do to attract new players.
Besides, runners aren't heros, were villains, criminals, sadists, and psychopathic killers. To the average joe of 2064 we are the Osama bin Ladens not the James Bonds that the citizens of our times see.
Parabellum
Besides, runners aren't heros, were villains, criminals, sadists, and psychopathic killers. To the average joe of 2064 we are the Osama bin Ladens not the James Bonds that the citizens of our times see.
Parabellum
| QUOTE (Birdy) |
| Won't it be easier to use a better system (and IMHO there are few worse systems than SR) and lessen the number of houserules necessary to play in the SR universe (which is "nice") |
Not for me it wouldn't. I happen to like the basic premises of the SR system immensely. I like them enough for all the house-ruling to be worth while.
And I'm absolutely certain that no RPG book could ever have rules for modern ranged combat that I would like enough for me not to house rule almost all of it.
| QUOTE (Birdy) |
| Won't it be easier to use a better system (and IMHO there are few worse systems than SR) and lessen the number of houserules necessary to play in the SR universe (which is "nice") |
It seems to me that what youre *really* trying to say with this post is "I like the Shadowrun setting, but I dont like the Shadowrun rules so I feel a need to houserule everything. Lets all play GURPS instead!"
I, for one, actually like the shadowrun system far better than just about any other I've played (which includes AD&D, D&D3e, GURPS, Palladium, and White Wolf). I think AE did a good job of wording it when he said that he likes the basic premises of the system - the way skills, damage and magic are handled are all, IMO, superior to the ways they are handled in other games, and I am perfectly willing to make a few houserules to cover the relatively few things I dislike or find to be unsupported by the rules, rather than try to port the game to a system that handles the most basic things poorly (ie with armor class, hit points, character classes, level-based progression, memorized spells, static skill/combat success/failure probabilities without regard to degrees of success, and so on).
But by all means, if you like GURPS better than use GURPS. The Shadowrun Police probably wont hunt you down and kill you. Maybe theyll just break some toes.
Personally, I find that the Shadowrun D6 system is one of the simplest and easiest to pick up. The Condition Monitor damage system is easy and not down to unrealistic Hit Points. The Powers for critters are a great help to GMing because you don't need a different page of rules for each critter that has the ability. (IE: One basic set of effects to remember) As for the magic sytem - its the most logical and yet adaptable form with atmosphere and depth that I have yet come across, without getting too complex.
OK, I'm bias because I've been addicted since 1st ED when all of these things were new ideas to the RPG market. I've seen changes and other systems try to emulate SR over the past 15 years (14 perhaps), but to me the basic system is one of its strengths. If it didn't work it wouldn't be so popular. The whole Sixth World background is just the icing on the cake.
If you want to change to a different system and play Shadowrun there, then go ahead - what ever suits your taste, but IMHO then you won't really be playing Shadowrun, will you. I don't discourage this concept if that's what you like to do, but if you want to keep up to date with the Sixth World you're still going to have to purchase Shadowrun releases and adapt the rules to your new system. As a matter of fact that's the whole point here though isn't it? You find something you like the sound of in another system or come up with an equally interesting idea and then try to make it fit. Thus is the definition of a House Rule.
And if you really want rule system nightmares try Earthdawn sometime or even Dangerous Journeys...
OK, I'm bias because I've been addicted since 1st ED when all of these things were new ideas to the RPG market. I've seen changes and other systems try to emulate SR over the past 15 years (14 perhaps), but to me the basic system is one of its strengths. If it didn't work it wouldn't be so popular. The whole Sixth World background is just the icing on the cake.
If you want to change to a different system and play Shadowrun there, then go ahead - what ever suits your taste, but IMHO then you won't really be playing Shadowrun, will you. I don't discourage this concept if that's what you like to do, but if you want to keep up to date with the Sixth World you're still going to have to purchase Shadowrun releases and adapt the rules to your new system. As a matter of fact that's the whole point here though isn't it? You find something you like the sound of in another system or come up with an equally interesting idea and then try to make it fit. Thus is the definition of a House Rule.
And if you really want rule system nightmares try Earthdawn sometime or even Dangerous Journeys...
The SR rules do some things brilliantly that other game systems don't pull off as well. Mainly the built in difficulty curve of target numbers and dice system.
It keeps the gap between the worst character and the best character relatively small, and allows a good range of play styles from loose and violent to tactical and smooth.
We house rule SR because we love SR.
It keeps the gap between the worst character and the best character relatively small, and allows a good range of play styles from loose and violent to tactical and smooth.
We house rule SR because we love SR.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) | ||
It seems to me that what youre *really* trying to say with this post is "I like the Shadowrun setting, but I dont like the Shadowrun rules so I feel a need to houserule everything. Lets all play GURPS instead!" I, for one, actually like the shadowrun system far better than just about any other I've played (which includes AD&D, D&D3e, GURPS, Palladium, and White Wolf). I think AE did a good job of wording it when he said that he likes the basic premises of the system - the way skills, damage and magic are handled are all, IMO, superior to the ways they are handled in other games, and I am perfectly willing to make a few houserules to cover the relatively few things I dislike or find to be unsupported by the rules, rather than try to port the game to a system that handles the most basic things poorly (ie with armor class, hit points, character classes, level-based progression, memorized spells, static skill/combat success/failure probabilities without regard to degrees of success, and so on). But by all means, if you like GURPS better than use GURPS. The Shadowrun Police probably wont hunt you down and kill you. Maybe theyll just break some toes. |
It's a bit different:
<rant>
I severely dislike the SR system! It is IMHO unbalanced, lacks fine graduation in skill/attributes, is a mass of "oh we need that" add on etc.
</rant>
I am interested in:
Does anybody run another system under the SR world and if so:
What system?
What did he have to change on that system?
How does it work?
as well as:
What do others think needs to be done to use other systems under the SR setting.
I am currently planing to start another "Interesting stuff meats magic" campaign and SR (the world) is one of the four options. But the system (from chargen to magic to firearms) just is so - lousy!
The alternate does not have to be GURPS. I take almost anything (except Rolemaster and D&D)
Michael
The short answer is, if I wanted to play GURPS Shadowrun game, I would play GURPS Shadowrun game. Same goes with a variation using Hero, D20, or even World of Darkness (though I am much more likely to play WoD SR then any of the others). I play FanPro Shadowrun because I like FanPro Shadowrun.
I find the GURPS system far more complex and cumbersome then anything I see come out for the Shadowrun line, and that is just not my style of gaming. Don't get my wrong, I love the stuff that comes out from Steve Jackson, but I am more likely to purchase the GURPS sourcebooks and use them for some other game then I am for a GURPS game.
I find the GURPS system far more complex and cumbersome then anything I see come out for the Shadowrun line, and that is just not my style of gaming. Don't get my wrong, I love the stuff that comes out from Steve Jackson, but I am more likely to purchase the GURPS sourcebooks and use them for some other game then I am for a GURPS game.
no fine graduation?
I'll take the SR dice system over almost any other, GURPS is all about the 3d6 added together versus target, you want no graduation what is the point of ever improving beyond a skill of 18?
the SR dice system means you can always get better, there is no break point where getting the skill higher will not help you. every other system I have ever played (and it is quite a few) has a point where getting better really isn't. spending points or going up levels stop making a difference in the game mechanics, be it because your thac0 is 0 or your skills are 18, at some point the system breaks down. but not in SR.
I think, if you realy hate the SR system, play something else, because the SR system is one of the better ones on the market.
(disclaimer, I have never played HERO but have heard horror stories about the charechter creation system, and that is why I have avoided it)
-Mike R.
I'll take the SR dice system over almost any other, GURPS is all about the 3d6 added together versus target, you want no graduation what is the point of ever improving beyond a skill of 18?
the SR dice system means you can always get better, there is no break point where getting the skill higher will not help you. every other system I have ever played (and it is quite a few) has a point where getting better really isn't. spending points or going up levels stop making a difference in the game mechanics, be it because your thac0 is 0 or your skills are 18, at some point the system breaks down. but not in SR.
I think, if you realy hate the SR system, play something else, because the SR system is one of the better ones on the market.
(disclaimer, I have never played HERO but have heard horror stories about the charechter creation system, and that is why I have avoided it)
-Mike R.
The character creation system of Hero can be...detailed. Although that's half the fun. However, I personally never liked interchangeable mechanical systems because the atmosphere tended to float away.
Creating a character in Hero, any character, can be a lot like watching the guy with a calculator trying to squeeze every last possible squirt of Essence from his samurai.
I like the world and genre of SR, far moreso than the actual mechanical system. I have a fondness for the Cyberpunk d10 mechanics rather than the Fuzion garbage currently produced.
And I must admit, I have yet to experience a game mechanic that I was completely satisfied with and didn't see a need to tweak -- although Ars Magica 3rd edition came pretty close.
-Siege
Creating a character in Hero, any character, can be a lot like watching the guy with a calculator trying to squeeze every last possible squirt of Essence from his samurai.
I like the world and genre of SR, far moreso than the actual mechanical system. I have a fondness for the Cyberpunk d10 mechanics rather than the Fuzion garbage currently produced.
And I must admit, I have yet to experience a game mechanic that I was completely satisfied with and didn't see a need to tweak -- although Ars Magica 3rd edition came pretty close.
-Siege
| QUOTE (sable twilight) |
| I find the GURPS system far more complex and cumbersome then anything I see come out for the Shadowrun line, and that is just not my style of gaming. Don't get my wrong, I love the stuff that comes out from Steve Jackson, but I am more likely to purchase the GURPS sourcebooks and use them for some other game then I am for a GURPS game. |
Amen. My first thought on seeing anything cool in GURPS is "I wonder what system I could play that in?"
Honestly, I think that Shadowrun is one of the best mechanics systems out there, certainly one of the best I've seen (I have not, admittedly, dealt with Hero mechanics), but your question is not one that meets with much sympathy from me.
~J
| QUOTE (Fahr) |
| no fine graduation? I'll take the SR dice system over almost any other, GURPS is all about the 3d6 added together versus target, you want no graduation what is the point of ever improving beyond a skill of 18? |
a) GURPS was just one example.
b) You have no deep understanding of the GURPS system
There are actually a few more mechanics to the system like
Modifiers for range, size, environment,......
Hasty/Relaxed approach
Wound modifiers
Situational modifiers
Substituting a skill for another
| QUOTE |
the SR dice system means you can always get better, there is no break point where getting the skill higher will not help you. every other system I have ever played (and it is quite a few) has a point where getting better really isn't. spending points or going up levels stop making a difference in the game mechanics, be it because your thac0 is 0 or your skills are 18, at some point the system breaks down. but not in SR. |
I agree. SR breaks down far earlier. The classical "Impervious to X" effect in the combat system is one thing. Unbeatable odds are another. The "attribute race" in things like willpower is also nice
Some systems have problems at CharGen (T:2000, GURPS i.e) and other in the game mechanics(SR). I can live with the first but hate the latter.
| QUOTE |
I think, if you realy hate the SR system, play something else, because the SR system is one of the better ones on the market. (disclaimer, I have never played HERO but have heard horror stories about the charechter creation system, and that is why I have avoided it) -Mike R. |
Currently playing something else is the prime option for me. But currently it won't be Shadowrun. To be honest the System behind it pisses me off to a point where I start developing a dislike for the background. And the background/universe does not deserve that.
Michael
Then develop a conversion to a system you like better. I know there is a World of Darkness/Shadowrun version out there, and here are a few for GURPS I found off google:
GURPS Shadowrun
Shadow 2
Michael Casavant's GURPS page
I'm sure there are more of them out there. Just search under "GURPS Shadowrun".
Just don't ask or imply the the rest of us should be converting just because you don't like the system.
GURPS Shadowrun
Shadow 2
Michael Casavant's GURPS page
I'm sure there are more of them out there. Just search under "GURPS Shadowrun".
Just don't ask or imply the the rest of us should be converting just because you don't like the system.
| QUOTE |
| a) GURPS was just one example. b) You have no deep understanding of the GURPS system[/b] |
And it would seem that you similarly have no solid understanding of the SR combat system:
| QUOTE |
| There are actually a few more mechanics to the system like Modifiers for range, size, environment,...... |
Range and Evironment are definitely in shadowrun, size is reflected in called shot modifiers....
| QUOTE |
| Hasty/Relaxed approach |
WHich is reflected by movement modifiers to combat tests. Hasty (running) is more of a penalty than relaxed (walking)...
| QUOTE |
| Wound modifiers |
Which are incredably prevalent in Shadowrun.
| QUOTE |
| Situational modifiers |
Like cover, weather, lighting and such? all of which exist in shadowrun...
| QUOTE |
| Substituting a skill for another |
Rules for defaulting from skills also exist in Shadowrun...
| QUOTE |
| I agree. SR breaks down far earlier. The classical "Impervious to X" effect in the combat system is one thing. Unbeatable odds are another. |
The only time something is nearly impossible to do is if it should be nearly impossible to do. I find TN's in SR are the vast majority of the time pretty appropriate. Please explain why you feel SR's system breaks down.
| QUOTE |
| Currently playing something else is the prime option for me. But currently it won't be Shadowrun. To be honest the System behind it pisses me off to a point where I start developing a dislike for the background. And the background/universe does not deserve that. |
It seems that so far you havent given a solid reason you dislike the SR mechanics so much. Your comparisons to GURPS above were all invalid as the things you like about GURPS also exist in SR, which you mush have been unaware of to make a statement of than nature. I suspect you have a less than healthy understanding of the system
which is at least partly the cause of your frustration with a system which is different by a decent amount from those others on the market.
In fact you have an almost fanatical dislike for the system which you haven't really given a single solid reason for yet.
I would like to hear some solid examples so I can figure out where you are coming from.
which is at least partly the cause of your frustration with a system which is different by a decent amount from those others on the market.
In fact you have an almost fanatical dislike for the system which you haven't really given a single solid reason for yet.
I would like to hear some solid examples so I can figure out where you are coming from.
I don't GM, but I've never seen a good reason for ignoring house rules. No system is going to be so perfect that everyone is amazed by it, so they choose what fits the style of play they prefer. If GM 1 loves the system and plays everything by the book, that's great. . .but it doesn't mean GM 2 will like it as much. They may disagree with anything from the ghoul downsides for a player to the racism modifiers for his/her perception of an area in Seattle. I have yet to see a gaming system, ANY gaming system, that wasn't houseruled at least a little. And though I understand your desire to adapt and change, you do sound a little harsh and condescending to those who disagree with your evaluation of SR rules and their needed changes.
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 18 2004, 06:08 PM) | ||
And it would seem that you similarly have no solid understanding of the SR combat system: |
And you did not read/understand the post you quote from. I was not! saying SR does not have those. I was just giving some reason why! a Skill > 18 is useful in GURPS.
| QUOTE | ||||
The only time something is nearly impossible to do is if it should be nearly impossible to do. I find TN's in SR are the vast majority of the time pretty appropriate. Please explain why you feel SR's system breaks down.
It seems that so far you havent given a solid reason you dislike the SR mechanics so much. Your comparisons to GURPS above were all invalid as the things you like about GURPS also exist in SR, which you mush have been unaware of to make a statement of than nature. I suspect you have a less than healthy understanding of the system which is at least partly the cause of your frustration with a system which is different by a decent amount from those others on the market. In fact you have an almost fanatical dislike for the system which you haven't really given a single solid reason for yet. I would like to hear some solid examples so I can figure out where you are coming from. |
Aquired the hatred over a few years of playing/mastering. Maybe it has just grown with the time, maybe it's a general dislike. One of the reasons are GM's (me included) that tend to a more "talking instead of rules" style of play that SR IMHO does not support (Some "char-classes" get all the benefits)
But some things I hate:
The 6=7 problem is a classical one (Yes, I know the D8 houserule)
The combat system is abstract to a point of uselessness with stuff like no hit locations for persons/vehicles
The magic system is IMHO not balanced
Does not matter anymore anyhow. Two players stated they won't touch SR with a "ten foot pole" so it will be GURPS:Technomancer.
But thanks to those who gave hints on Hero etc.
Michael
good luck with it then!
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