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The Jopp
Now, what would actually happen here?

Would the Dopadrine stop berserk from actually happening and thus ignore the risk of permanent berserk state?

Combining K10 and Dopadrine to an autoinjector and a biomonitor might be feasible.
Nixda
I think "permanent" in the rules just refers to a state of being not ending on its own and does not mean "uncurable". So I think Dopadrine will at least end the berserk state.
However, I dont think the build with a biomonitor/autoinjector makes much sense for K-10 because sooner or later a character using this will get injured in combat and then faces the problem of the huge unresisted stun damage when the crash from K-10 comes. This will easily do physical damage even uninjured, and with a few boxes of stun damage before the crash he will risk severe wounds or even death.

The Jopp
Well, the Dopamine might work as a future medication as the biomonitor might have a condition set for what constitutes as "berserk" with a flush of adrenaline and blood pressure combination (easily researched beforehand by doctors) and automatically inject the character with it.

Think of it as an automatic insulin injector for diabetics but in this case for unfortunate berserkers instead rotfl.gif

But yea, the "permanent" state will be a bit hard to get rid of.

K10 + bear shaman shouldn't be a problem though. grinbig.gif
Neraph
I first found this combination about a year and a half ago, and posted about it roughtly then.

Dopadrine specifically states that it prevents you from becoming berserk in the first place, thereby stopping any potential perma-zerk. It also has twice the duration of K-10, making it a very good choice. K-10's bonuses will also offset the -1 all Physical Tests of Dopadrine.

Here's the fun part - surviving it. You can also pop an Immortal Flower, have a magic rating and a Power Pact with a spirit that has Regeneration, or be one of the handful of creatures with Regeneration. Otherwise surviving the speedball is very difficult.
Rasumichin
Even if you can regenerate, it will first knock you out cold before you can start to heal the damage.
K10 is still a pretty hardcore choice, even if you apply any safety measure possible.
Coming down here always means collapsing from one moment to the next and waking up in a world of hurt.
I'd throw in some kind of strong painkiller, too. The K10 will give you wonderful pain resistance during it's duration, but afterwards, you may want something as strong as Crimson Orchid to cope with the aftereffects.

If you cannot regenerate, have a medical drone with a machine sprite nearby, BTW.
That should help a lot without eating away your Essence the way Immortal Flower does.
hobgoblin
mixing uppers and downers, always a good thing silly.gif
Patrick the Gnome
Yeah, you really need Regeneration in order to make K-10 work as more than a one-use emergency combat drug. Speedballing it with Dopadrine is a good idea unless you're more worried about addiction than permaberserk. Immortal Flower can work with K-10 but only if the character has no magic or cyber.
Hagga
QUOTE (Nixda @ Apr 29 2010, 11:16 AM) *
I think "permanent" in the rules just refers to a state of being not ending on its own and does not mean "uncurable". So I think Dopadrine will at least end the berserk state.
However, I dont think the build with a biomonitor/autoinjector makes much sense for K-10 because sooner or later a character using this will get injured in combat and then faces the problem of the huge unresisted stun damage when the crash from K-10 comes. This will easily do physical damage even uninjured, and with a few boxes of stun damage before the crash he will risk severe wounds or even death.

.I've always been inclined to think it was merely a 'relief' period - even if you're doing the Dope when you do the K10, if you fai the K10 edge test you go to BLOODDEATHMURDERKILLMETALLYRICSHERE as soon as the Dope wears off.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 29 2010, 07:05 PM) *
mixing uppers and downers, always a good thing silly.gif


No one said running was a particularly healthy profession, right? cyber.gif

QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 30 2010, 01:38 AM) *
Yeah, you really need Regeneration in order to make K-10 work as more than a one-use emergency combat drug. Speedballing it with Dopadrine is a good idea unless you're more worried about addiction than permaberserk. Immortal Flower can work with K-10 but only if the character has no magic or cyber.


Or if you keep one Essence point to waste and undergo regular rehab in a genetech facility.
That gets expensive really fast, of course.
But given the downsides of the usual regenerating character, it may actually be the least problematic option.
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Apr 29 2010, 07:49 PM) *
No one said running was a particularly healthy profession, right? cyber.gif



Or if you keep one Essence point to waste and undergo regular rehab in a genetech facility.
That gets expensive really fast, of course.
But given the downsides of the usual regenerating character, it may actually be the least problematic option.


I still wouldn't use Immortal Flower on a cybered character, even if I could afford gene treatments. 2d6 unresisted physical damage after you've lost Regeneration hurts, and could in fact be fatal if you lost Immortal Flower at the wrong time.
Rasumichin
Admittedly, it's better suited to beef up NPCs than anything else...
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Apr 29 2010, 08:49 PM) *
Admittedly, it's better suited to beef up NPCs than anything else...


Idk, I've been toying with the idea of a fifth combat character type (besides cybersam, adept, mage, and rigger) who uses drugs to compete. A character designed for drug use could probably munch through their penalties and become an extremely cheap build. Haven't actually made the guy yet because I'm still trying to find a way to make him better as a human than as a bear shifter (yay free regen with no Essence loss and an added Magic attribute to the test) but I'll find it eventually.
Banaticus
There's another way to avoid the permanent berserk of the drug. It just takes a boatload of karma. See, a Force 18 Detox spell (cast at the damage of the drug) will remove the "side affects" of K-10 (although it doesn't prevent the damage). The drain value of Detox is F/2-4, or only 5 drain for a Force 18 spell. You, uhm, just need a magic of 9 to overcast that high.

So, 198 karma to go from Magic 6 to Magic 9... (10+13)+35+(10+16)+40+(10+19)+45. Now, you can reduce it by joining a magic group and going through an initiatory ordeal at each initiation. In this case, it'll only take 153 karma, a savings of 45 karma. Make sure that you choose the Quickening metamagic and the anchoring metamagic. Choose whatever you want as the third metamagic technique.

Now, if you could only cast a spell (like Detox) and have it trigger when you want (like exactly 5 minutes after a hit of K-10)... Oh, fortunately, you know the anchoring technique. Now, you can cast the spell and have it anchored, but it will cost 1 karma for every force of the spell or 18 karma. You'll likely hit K-10 more than 6 times, which is how much it costs to make an anchoring focus. In this case, it's only 108 karma.

So, 261 or 306 karma (if you join a group and use initiatory ordeals) and you can pre-overcast Detox 18 with 5 drain to trigger at "5 minutes after 1 hit of K-10".

Now, presuming that you start with your two drain attributes maxed, you'll likely get four successes and only take one physical damage each time you cast. If you go the ritual sorcery route, though, you'll need a Force 18 lodge, which will cost 9,000 nuyen, then any successes from your helpers can be saved from the spell successes to help you resist drain -- your helpers are on their own.
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 2 2010, 12:57 AM) *
There's another way to avoid the permanent berserk of the drug. It just takes a boatload of karma. See, a Force 18 Detox spell (cast at the damage of the drug) will remove the "side affects" of K-10 (although it doesn't prevent the damage). The drain value of Detox is F/2-4, or only 5 drain for a Force 18 spell. You, uhm, just need a magic of 9 to overcast that high.

So, 198 karma to go from Magic 6 to Magic 9... (10+13)+35+(10+16)+40+(10+19)+45. Now, you can reduce it by joining a magic group and going through an initiatory ordeal at each initiation. In this case, it'll only take 153 karma, a savings of 45 karma. Make sure that you choose the Quickening metamagic and the anchoring metamagic. Choose whatever you want as the third metamagic technique.

Now, if you could only cast a spell (like Detox) and have it trigger when you want (like exactly 5 minutes after a hit of K-10)... Oh, fortunately, you know the anchoring technique. Now, you can cast the spell and have it anchored, but it will cost 1 karma for every force of the spell or 18 karma. You'll likely hit K-10 more than 6 times, which is how much it costs to make an anchoring focus. In this case, it's only 108 karma.

So, 261 or 306 karma (if you join a group and use initiatory ordeals) and you can pre-overcast Detox 18 with 5 drain to trigger at "5 minutes after 1 hit of K-10".

Now, presuming that you start with your two drain attributes maxed, you'll likely get four successes and only take one physical damage each time you cast. If you go the ritual sorcery route, though, you'll need a Force 18 lodge, which will cost 9,000 nuyen, then any successes from your helpers can be saved from the spell successes to help you resist drain -- your helpers are on their own.

Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through just to get rid of berserk, and this methid would get rid of K-10's other "side effects" as well, namely the stat and IP boosts. There are easier ways to cast force 18 spells though, you just need a Force 9 Spirit of Man rotate.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Hagga @ Apr 29 2010, 06:43 PM) *
.I've always been inclined to think it was merely a 'relief' period - even if you're doing the Dope when you do the K10, if you fai the K10 edge test you go to BLOODDEATHMURDERKILLMETALLYRICSHERE as soon as the Dope wears off.

No, because Dopadrine specifically states that it prevents the user from becoming berserk in the first place; it does not relieve the effects, it prevents them.

QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ May 2 2010, 12:15 AM) *
Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through just to get rid of berserk, and this methid would get rid of K-10's other "side effects" as well, namely the stat and IP boosts. There are easier ways to cast force 18 spells though, you just need a Force 9 Spirit of Man rotate.gif

Due to the new errata, Spirits of Man can no longer use their Innate Spell ability to overcast.
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 2 2010, 01:58 AM) *
Due to the new errata, Spirits of Man can no longer use their Innate Spell ability to overcast.

Really? Where'd you find that?
Neraph
I guess you boycotted SR4A, despite the fact that it is the legal, most up-to-date errata, didn't you?
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