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Zyerne
Ok, so rigging's changed some, I can live with that. Having gone through the rules and boards several times, I do want to check some stuff though on AR vs VR DPs

I'm looking at a vehicle rigger, not a drone specialist. Thinking about the poor guy strapped into his seat with his head flapping around got me thinking about how much difference VR actually makes, so I went and ran some numbers. There's a good chance I've missed something or messed up somehow, hence this post

For these comparisons, I'm going to assume identical skill levels, Intuition and IPs. As I'm including a control rig booster, the Rigger can't reach 5 IPs and the other 2 can reach 4, if more expensively. Reaction of 10 or Response of 6 seems likely for a hardcore vehicle user. If someone could run through and point out any glaring mistakes or omissions I'd be grateful.

Piloting first.

The Street Sam gets 10 Reaction, +1 AR, +1 Reflex recorder, 1+ Enhanced Articulation for vehicle skill +13

The Adept gets 10 Reaction +1 AR and +3 Improved ability for VS +14

The Rigger gets 6 Response + 2 VR +2 Control Rig +3 Control Rig Boosters for VS + 7 with a situational -1 threshold mod

If I got those figures right, the Rigger comes out slighlty ahead when the VR threshold reduction applies. The Adept is better at ramming and possibly opposed vehicle tests, I'm not sure how the threshold reduction would work there, if at all.

I'm also not sure if the Adepts Improved Ability works in AR or if it's possible for him to also use enhanced articulation and a reflex recorder on top of his +3 from Improved Ability.

Initiative is much simpler, the AR users Reaction is matched by the hotsim bonus and Enhanced response, leaving everyone equal.

For gunnery, everyone is using sensors so it's the Adepts +3 improved ability vs the Riggers +4 for hotsim and control rig, with the Sam trailing significantly. Throw in active targeting, the gaps only increase.

Basically, what I'm seeing is that piloting and init can be more or less equal, init is equal, but anything else the jumped in Rigger is ahead. Still not sure about the flapping head bit and the Rigger Cocoon's 1 minute entry/exit time is putting me off.

On which note, why do the GMC Banshee and the Honda pursuit cars come with Cocoons but not Rigger Adaptions?
Karoline
Good luck getting anyone to reaction 10. 9 is the max augmented reaction for.... virtually every single race (can't think of an exception off hand) not counting qualities/geneware that improves that.

You also forget to include that riggers can indeed get that extra IP, putting them at 5, and they do so far far far more easily than an adept/sam gets to 4. You also forget that reflex recorder works in VR (Weird I know, but true) and that enhanced articulation does not work on vehicles, as they are not Physical skills.

So, what you actually have is adepts and riggers both get +14, but the rigger gets 1 lower threshold, and the adept had to spend 5.25 power points to be able to do this for a single vehicle, and would need to spend another .75 for each other kind of vehicle, while a rigger automatically gets it on any vehicle that can be rigged. Oh, and to get the full 3 levels of improved ability, the adept would require a skill of 6. This of course carries through to gunnery. That's another .75 power points and another skill required to be at 6.

So yeah, an adept can almost manage to keep up in AR with a rigger in VR, but will basically have no reason to be an adept at that point, because every last point of magic is going towards rigging.
svenftw
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 5 2010, 12:24 PM) *
You also forget to include that riggers can indeed get that extra IP, putting them at 5, and they do so far far far more easily than an adept/sam gets to 4.


I disagree, they get to 4 just as easily as a Samurai, but to get to 5 a rigger would need to sacrifice his Control Rig Boosters. I think that decision alone makes it not easy at all.

Genetic Optimization to get a Reaction of 10 isn't too hard, it doesn't require much luck just a dose of nuyen and enough downtime to sit in a tank for 2 months.
Karoline
QUOTE (svenftw @ May 5 2010, 05:00 PM) *
I disagree, they get to 4 just as easily as a Samurai, but to get to 5 a rigger would need to sacrifice his Control Rig Boosters. I think that decision alone makes it not easy at all.

Oh yeah, forgot they went back to the old 'hackers and riggers can't coexist' mentality with that.
QUOTE
Genetic Optimization to get a Reaction of 10 isn't too hard, it doesn't require much luck just a dose of nuyen and enough downtime to sit in a tank for 2 months.


45k is a fair amount of nuyen.

Still, my main point is that yeah, they can be nearly as effective, but the non-rigger requires an utterly massive investment.
Zyerne

Or Synaptic boosters, which probably isn't RAI even if it's legal.

Which I guess is just another form of investment.
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 5 2010, 09:24 PM) *
Good luck getting anyone to reaction 10. 9 is the max augmented reaction for.... virtually every single race (can't think of an exception off hand)



Pixies. They make perfect riggers, especially when you consider that they could rig the vehicle from inside a smuggling compartment. grinbig.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ May 5 2010, 05:36 PM) *
Pixies. They make perfect riggers, especially when you consider that they could rig the vehicle from inside a smuggling compartment. grinbig.gif


Air holes might make the compartment a bit less useful as a smuggling compartment.
fazzamar
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 5 2010, 06:05 PM) *
Air holes might make the compartment a bit less useful as a smuggling compartment.


Air holes are for pansies, we're talking about a pixie with an internal air tank!
Zyerne
Pixie would fit IN the air tank.

And then there's the partial cyberlimb for the nanohive, internal commlink and other goodies...
fazzamar
QUOTE (Zyerne @ May 5 2010, 06:29 PM) *
Pixie would fit IN the air tank.

And then there's the partial cyberlimb for the nanohive, internal commlink and other goodies...


That's just silly, implying that all the races' cyberware is the same size. An internal air tank made for a troll wouldn't fit in a dwarf very well. Heck imagine a dwarf or troll walking around with a human sized arm. Of course any cyber that a pixie gets would have to be custom made on a per piece basis since I doubt there's a big market for ware that small.
Yerameyahu
The air tank is in the *vehicle* smuggling compartment.
Xahn Borealis
Or get the mage to Oxygenate you.
Karoline
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ May 5 2010, 07:44 PM) *
Or get the mage to Oxygenate you.


I've always preferred a good rating 5 oxyrush for a satisfying 2.5 hours of holding your breath.
Udoshi
QUOTE (svenftw @ May 5 2010, 03:00 PM) *
I disagree, they get to 4 just as easily as a Samurai, but to get to 5 a rigger would need to sacrifice his Control Rig Boosters. I think that decision alone makes it not easy at all.


Actually, I play a 5 pass hacker/rigger right now, and its totally worth it. Control rig boosters are, in my opinion....not worth it. Look at what they do. They add to Pilot(vehicle) checks. Now look at what you roll in the course of rigging, running sensors, and fighting in a vehicle.

You use Pilot for...crash tests. Full defense. Not Everything, like a control rig helps with.

If you're going to compare Meat Rigging and VR rigging, you also need to consider the other implications of either control style. Skills, actions, and bonuses.

First off: VR is faster. Certain action types change - much like smartguns use changed linked device mode to make certain actions free actoons, like ejecting clips, vr does the same.
You need to spend a complex action each Turn controlling the vehicle, or face Crashing. A rigger, however, IS the car - and Moving is a Free action for people. For a meatspace rigger, they're going to lose a pass each turn driving. However, a vr-rigger gets to deal with biofeedback damage - its really not a problem, though. Its only when the vehicle takes damage, you take that damage value halve it, and soak that with your biofeedback filter. So, basically, any incoming damage is reduced three times before it reaches your condition monitor - once by the vehicles armor, once due to a game mechanic, and then you get to soak what's left. Auto-dumpshock is more of a problem, but, if something is powerful enough to instakill your vehicle, then you have bigger problems. However, the potential for biofeedback stun also means there is more of a potential for a rigger's dice pools to go down the toilet - every 3 boxes on a condition monitor net you a -1 to everything. So, as a car gets attacked, the meatspace driver is likely fully protected by the vehicles armor, and just has to deal with the accruing penalties of his vehicle getting shot up - while a hotsim rigger can, potentially, can take penalties on his own track as well as that of his vehicle, for a double-whammie.

There's also the Driving with AR bonus(4a 168). Everyone knows that VR drivers get the -1 threshold. But, meatspace drivers can claim a +1 to all Vehicle Tests if they subscribe to the vehicle - and Remote Controllers don't get that bonus. That +1 is basically half a control rig - for free. Threshold is nice, but extra dice help you when dodging, getting shot, and other things which don't have a Threshold. (I am unsure if a VR-driver physically in the vehicle gets the +1 TOO - they are subscribed as a service, and are not remote controlling. If so - rigger cocoons, fuck yeah! +5 to everything)

Per 4a 245, any tests made while jumped in use the rigger's skills and the drones attribute(response = agi+reaction, sensor = intuition.) That's where the problem in effectiveness lies. Metahumans will rarely have an intuition over 6, but getting a Sensor of 6 is fairly easy - advantage rigger. If you check 4a 167, you'll find that people -may- substitute Sensor for Intuition, and that drones -always- do it. Advantage - both. Or to a high-int rigger, who has shitty sensors. This is important, though, because you use sensor to shoot people: See Sensor Lock-on and Active Sensor Targeting.(4a 171). Basically, Net hits are added to the shooting-people roll as long as your sensors have lock.

On evading those sensors, p171, we find that non-vehicle people may Oppose the test with Agility + Infiltration. Vehicles may do so with Infiltration+Reaction+Handling, and that you the dice you gain fromInfiltration may not be more than your Vehicle Skill, which is a reason not to take control rig boosters (It cares about your Skill Rating, not about how many bonus dice you have to it.)

Gunnery, p171, says that the rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle mounted weapons, and that it uses Gunnery, which is linked to Agility.

Now here's where we start to see the playing field evened a bit. A drone or vehicle needs availability sixteen(8000ny) components to sport a response six, and the highest you can start with without Restricted Gear is 5. Stock models, they have three by defaults, four for security vehicle(if it comes with a weapon mount, its probably in the security class of cars), and five if its milspec. A metahuman, on the other hand, can surpass that very easily.

Its worth noting that for Vehicle full defense, you add in your Vehicle Skill - which is one reason to take control rig boosters - but a meatspace driver could very well have reaction 9 and Reakt, and drop 11 dice+handling to dodge the attack without burning an action, while a rigger is only going to get his Response(5 or 6) to start with.

its not a fair comparison to compare dice pools and passes. A VR adept, for example can enjoy the hotsim bonuses and the high skillboosts from being an adept, while a technomancer rigger can potentially get five passes(advanced overclocking), a second complex action in each(macro), and run active sensor targeting as a free action each pass too(multiprocessing!). So which is better?I don't have a good answer. But, i can help explain.

So, basically.... its like this.

VR: A hotsim rigger is going to be limited by his drone or vehicle of choice's Response, because it substitutes for important stats. That's generally 4-6. But, they get +4 to everything with the right equipment to make up for it.

Meatspace drivers aren't limited to stats of 6, and can blow beyond that with skills, spells, geneware and augmentation. However they accomplish that, you're looking at relevant stats of 6-9, maybe ten, and +1 for driving in person.

Okay, so they're comparable at the high end, give and take on the low and middle. But shadowrun is a stat+skill game. A VR user is on equal footing with the samurai here - they both have skills at 4-6, and probably a specialization. Both can profit fromwhat ware there is to boost skills equally(reflex recorders, namely). With that in mind, the rigger's looking at a dice pool for most things(not just driving, shooting, sensors, dodging, infiltrating) of 4-6 each stat and skill, and 4 for the hotsim/control rig bonuses, for a dice range of 12-16 without a specialization. The sammy on the other hand, gets 6-10 on stats, 4-6 on skills, and +1 for AR driving, so a range of 11-17, again, without specialization. So they're still comparable.

The adept, however, starts to take the lead here. They can get 6-9 on stats rather easily, especially if they're msytic adepts with statboost spells. Skills, they start to take the advantage - even with groups, improved ability can start them with relevant skills of 6 across the board, and bring them up to 9 if they really want it.. Also, enhanced perception gives bonus dice on all perception tests, which includes sensors - so with a power point, its possible to sneak their way to supremacy in sensor targeting. An adept can also claim the driving manually bonus, which gives them a dice range of 13-20, or they can go hotsim too(2), get a control rig(2), and use a the lower drone stats(4-6) with their higher skills(6-9) so, 14-19, without specialties. With an alphaware control rig, and basic-grade simsense booster, and an alphaware datajack to plug into a commlink, they can also claim 5 passes within one point of essence loss.

More or less, riggers are cheap, and can get high dice pools rather quickly, and pretty much dominate the middle game in terms of cost-effectiveness.
Sammies can add a driving skill on top of everything else, and still be a great wheelman.
Adepts are great, but rigger adepts are awesome.
A technomancer rigger will take gobs of karma to pull off, but at the peak of its power, hand the other three their asses. At the same time.

Sorry if that opened up a can of worms, but I hope that helps clarify some things.

Edit: I am apologizing in advance if I am unnecessarily repeating myself. I am very tired as of the time of posting.
svenftw
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 6 2010, 12:28 AM) *
You need to spend a complex action each Turn controlling the vehicle, or face Crashing. A rigger, however, IS the car - and Moving is a Free action for people. For a meatspace rigger, they're going to lose a pass each turn driving.


Are you saying that a jumped-in rigger doesn't have to spend a pass controlling the vehicle? Is this in a book somewhere?
Falconer
Sven: that's what he's trying to say... and it is dead wrong.

One of the supporting arguments I've read for being able to get 5 VR passes is so that they still have 4 'meat' VR passes and one left to control the vehicle.

And you don't have to spend it, it's just there's consequences for not doing it including the potential of a crash.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2010, 05:21 PM) *
Sven: that's what he's trying to say... and it is dead wrong.


Somewhere in the faq or the play-example, there's text that clarified that Pilots are VR entities, and do benefit from the -1 threshold modifier from VR-ing. I believe in the same example, it also mentions that controlling the vehicle is a free action, since it is in VR. Its one of those annoying rules snippets that in the completely wrong section of the book( I want to say arsenal), and I may be misremembering or mixing up an dev post from here, so I might be wrong.

But, consider. You're in tactical combat. You want to send a drone to cover, and you're jumped in. Its a bit far, and you're going to want to Run to get there, as opposed to Walking. What kind of action is that? Its a free one.
Falconer
No it's not a free action... Movement just is.

Vehicles have an acceleration rating... one which is the normal 'walking' rate... and another for 'running' penalties. Then a max speed on top of that. So a vehicle might take multiple turns to come to full speed (and multiple turns to slow down to a full stop).


A normal non-vehicular character can choose to walk or run on his turn w/o using a free action, he simply moves. However, if he chooses to sprint for extra distance, then he needs to use a simple action (not a free action). Vehicles are similar... and even a remote controlled or rigged vehicles are always assumed to be under control so long as one action each combat turn is spent on a successful pilot check (think of it like playing a video game, you can drive and shoot at the same time).

If you were jumped in... I'd treat you the same as a person... simple action to 'sprint' for the extra acceleration... then you have another problem... cam you decelerate again in time before slamming into something. The vehicle rules are a bit vague and give the GM a lot of discretion.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2010, 10:01 PM) *
No it's not a free action... Movement just is.

If you were jumped in... I'd treat you the same as a person... simple action to 'sprint' for the extra acceleration... then you have another problem... cam you decelerate again in time before slamming into something. The vehicle rules are a bit vague and give the GM a lot of discretion.


And...thats exactly why I believe a jumped in rigger gets some leeway with movement/control-or-crash. Because they -are- treated the same as a person. And a person may move as a free/non action, depending on exactly how they're moving. So a jumped in rigger takes a free action to Run - and.... well, they've just spent an action controlling their vehicle. Done.

On movement and actions, You're halfway right. Page 146(4A) would like to disagree with you. Running IS an action(Free), while walking isn't. In addition to that, you may Sprint as a Simple.

Acceleration also doesn't work like that. Its silly, and counter-intuitive, but within the wierd physics of shadowrun, Acceleration isn't the rate at which your speed changes over time/turns - its your Walking and Running rates in tactical combat, per turn, respectively. Just like it is for metahumans, actually. (4a167)
Falconer
But al vehicle actions aren't treated like the character.

Using the gunnery skill is always a complex action, whether rigged or not. One reason belted MG's are so good on drones... you can use the complex action to fire a llong burst then split the attack between close targets, attacking multiple people w/ a single action.

Edit: strike that... "but in almost all cases vehicle weapons require a complex action to fire." But just above that it says depends on mode fired... don't you love it when they speak out of both sides of their mouth.

Also, I wouldn't do that to a remote controlled drone. Provided the operator made his control check,

Quotes:
Control Device: "Note that if the action to be performed is normally a simple action, performing it through the Control Device action is still a Complex Action". IE: simple, not free go up to complex.

Remote Control: "Unless already executing an ongoing action on the Rigger's behalf, a remote controlled drone acts only when it receives commands (ie on the Rigger's action)."
I take this to mean that you've done the control check for the round, after this you don't need to burn complex actions just to move the drone at a walk/run rate.


IMO: an example of rigging would be... rigger jumps into drone as a simple action... spends another simple to use active sensor targetting (bonus dice) when he attacks the next pass. Or the rigger can issue both a simple command to the pilot's of his other drones and still jump in.

But overall I agree with you, rigging provides a dice bonus and a lot of bonuses to how fast you can act. I've always skimmed these rules and now am getting a better understanding of them.

Udoshi
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 7 2010, 05:02 AM) *
But al vehicle actions aren't treated like the character.


This is true - however, it makes a bit more sense when you realize that the Vehicle Section's actions are for physically driving. Like, with your hands. A rigger is not - and there's a brief blurb in unwired about DNI changing some actions to free actions for any linked device. Its on page 58.(the same things is pretty much restated on p146 sr4a )

And yeah, the gunnery skill always being a complex action unless its not is a rather annoying rule. Both sides of the mouth indeed.

And yep, Remote Control has an 'always a complex action to use' clause. Its the primary reason I say its very action-innefficient compared to other control methods. The Issue Command(for telling your minions to do stuff). Its also very good - command 6 is easy to get, benefits from the hotsim bonus, and can let you drop a brick of dice when combined with another skill/specialty. (TMs deserve an honorable mention here, due to being able to thread and assist Command up to ridiculous levels.)


A better example of rigging might be:
Random Rigger has an Optic-X stealth drone with a super-sensor array, several dobermen with guns, gecko tipping and chameleon coating, and a target holed up in an office building. The rigger hase more than metahuman(jump in/out is a free action), and has a bounty target holed up inside an abaondoned office building. The rigger is running a tacnet.
Due to Prep time, the rigger starts the fight with surprise(the target doesn't know he's coming just yet), and jumped into the optic-x.
Due to Prep Time, two doberman are working their way into the building - one pointman, one backup. They are both running autonomously, using their infiltrate autosofts to get inside.
A third doberman is on the top of the building, waiting for orders, just in case. All drones have orders to take their target alive, and are loaded with stick n shocks.
Rigger takes an Observe in Detail action - simple - to perform a Sensor Lockon test. Because he's in a tacnet, he can do this test for other members of the tacsoft network. He spends edge to help cancel out the Signature penalty, and gives a '4-hit I can see you with ultrawideband radar' bonus to the lead drone.' He then takes an Issue Command(not remote control) to tell the doberman pair exactly how he wants them to enter, sending the same command to both drones, since they're subscribed as a pair.(you -can- do this to save subscriptions, see NON-anniversary 238. The same orders must go to the group, though.). Basically, 'go here and attack this guy.'(think real-time strategy)
He saves his free action to take later in the pass, since you can do that with free actions(4a 146), waiting for the lower-initiative dogbrain drones to round the corner and get to the target - when they do, he Jumps In to the lead drone, expecting trouble, and starts the next pass in it(I am unclear if he'd have to jump out of the optic-x first, or if you could just use the action to change what you're jumped into, as long as you're already in the node and in VR), which gives the lead drone the rigger's initiative and overrides external commands - like the one he just gave.
The bounty manages to go first, and to spot the chameleon coated drone to boot - panics, quickdraws a ruger warhawk, and double-taps the lead doberman with ex-ex rounds.
Not wanting to lose his drone, the rigger gives up his next action to go on full defense, and uses his control rig, hot sim, and ranged specialize dodge skill to not get hit.
On a lower initiative, the second doberman follows the first one up to the cubicle, sees the target shooting, and just shoots him with a narrow burst of stick and shocks. (Possibly skipping the dogbrain test, because the rigger has already told it to go after this target with the Issue Command.)


But yeah, it seems like we're pretty much on the same page. Rigging is pretty neat, and you should definitely look into it more. Jumped-in riggers are pretty badass, and, in the course of looking into this, I think i've found some rules involving how attribute substitution(Command Replaces attribute, sensor replaces intuition, response for agility/reaction, autosofts for skills, that kind of thing) works for jumped in riggers that makes them even better. Its a little involved/technical, but I think Its worth mentioning, and I'll post it once I double check my quotes.
Falconer
Okay... I see a few things wrong w/ your example.

1. Irrelevant, the blurb changes nothing... Nothing stops anyone w/ a datajack/skinlink/etc from simply controlling any vehicle they're in through DNI. Even if they aren't in VR or even AR!

2. Remote control... Free actions remain free actions... only *simple* actions go up to complex. However, you can remote control any drone you're logged into just by switching focus of your UI like you try and do below.

3. I think the rules are fairly clear that a jumped-in rigger can fire as a simple action provided he's single or short bursting. The bit afterwards about normally being a complex, means oftentimes but not always. (always for a command based rigger though as a simple action for them is complex)

4. Tacnet: They're a huge bonus, but you're making it even more because you're doing things it doesn't do.
Your other drones do not benefit from the active sensor lock your recon drone has... that bonus is already represented in the generic tacnet bonus. Assuming a rating 2 tacnet... (you have 4 units... each with at least a sensor rating of 4, enough to form and run the net... the tacnet provides a +2 dice bonus). You could issue a command to the drones to execute a sensor lock-on to try and gain active targetting bonuses, but they would not get them unless they actually locked-onto the target themselves. (which they probably can't, lacking see through wall sensors themselves).

5. As best I know, there's no requirement to jump out before you jump into a new unit. It's simply a matter of jump into the new unit... and if you don't want to be in anything use the action to jump out and get yourself out of physical jeopardy.

6. More than metahuman, only allows a jump-in rigger to do what a command based rigger already could. Switch drones as a free action. Provided they both already have the drones in queston subscribed (IE: their icon is present in the system). Either can switch drones as a free action at any time w/ that quality.. The command rigger already could w/o it.


It's not just techno's who benefit... AI's can have an innate program command at an extremely high level.

I want to play one... I've gone over the rules... it's simply I normally get dragooned into being the party mage and the GM actively dislikes anything matrix related and goes nuts w/ magical threats. (SR3 or SR4)
Udoshi
1: You're actually right, nothing stops DNI from being used on other devices, like drones and vehicles. But, if you'd read the blurb, you'd know DNI changes certain actions to free actions, just like smartguns. And because that drone is being rigged through VR, which means simsense, which probably means DNI too. Unfortunately, there isn't a list of actions that get downgraded to free actions, like there is for smartguns(ejecting clips, closing gasvent mods, switching to an additional clip, that kind of thing), but the possibility is there.

As for 5: Here, this should help clear things up.

QUOTE (Unwired 126, )
Using targeting data supplied by another team member, tacnets can be used to engage unseen targets with indirect fire(see indirect fire, page 162, arsenal). Similiar, networked characters can engage in sensor targeting(see p. 162 sr4) for other members of the tacnet engaged in vehicle combat.


Yes, tacnets are great. They're even better if you have spotter drones spotting the gundrones, who now don't have to waste actions getting sensor locks, when they could be better spent shooting people. Even a tacnet 1 will immensely help your drones talk to each other and gets stuff done. It is for this very reason, that when I break out the steel lynxes, they get a mini drone rack carrying a dragonfly with upgraded sensors.

And yeah, the example is kind of ass, I was going to make it a bit longer, possibly give the random target an agent to mess with the drones, but then I realized I didn't want to break out the matrix can-o-worms for this.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Zyerne @ May 5 2010, 08:47 PM) *
The Rigger gets 6 Response + 2 VR +2 Control Rig +3 Control Rig Boosters for VS + 7 with a situational -1 threshold mod

Just wanted to add a note here as it's something I only realised myself the other day the CRB are a skill modifier and not a DP modifier, which means their effect is limited to half skill rating round down. For example, rating 3 is only fully functional for skill ratings of 6 and 7.
Starmage21
This thread has been HIGHLY educational.

Fuckin WIN
Zyerne
QUOTE (Aerospider @ May 10 2010, 11:58 AM) *
Just wanted to add a note here as it's something I only realised myself the other day the CRB are a skill modifier and not a DP modifier, which means their effect is limited to half skill rating round down. For example, rating 3 is only fully functional for skill ratings of 6 and 7.


That's true, but I was using VS of 6 in my example I think.

Given that CRB's have no essence cost other than the nanohive (which I don't consider optional, and should go in a cyberlimb) and are dirt cheap, it makes sense to get the max level put in regardless of current skill. I think it's fair to assume that any rigger worth his pay is going to eventually have VS 6 in his primary vehicle type. It's a lesser benefit any additional sub rating 6 VS but as it's essentially free anyway..

Falconer
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 10 2010, 02:21 AM) *
Yes, tacnets are great. They're even better if you have spotter drones spotting the gundrones, who now don't have to waste actions getting sensor locks, when they could be better spent shooting people. Even a tacnet 1 will immensely help your drones talk to each other and gets stuff done. It is for this very reason, that when I break out the steel lynxes, they get a mini drone rack carrying a dragonfly with upgraded sensors.

And yeah, the example is kind of ass, I was going to make it a bit longer, possibly give the random target an agent to mess with the drones, but then I realized I didn't want to break out the matrix can-o-worms for this.


No, brief is beautiful. Fewer words communicates your point better.

You're misunderstanding the reading of that paragraph. Nowhere does it say to give any particular EXTRAORDINARY dicepool benefits. In your case, you have a drone running the equivalent of a wall-hack in a First Person Shooter (FPS). Your drones can see through the walls so would avoid the blindfire penalty if you were to shoot through the walls. (loaded w/ SnS though, not going to happen, since SnS discharges when they hit something... at least that'd be my ruling as a GM).

In fact, if you were smart and wanted to knock him out... you'd load the drones w/ plain vanilla ammo and just fire through the walls. (he'd gain an armor bonus from the walls and from his worn... pretty much guaranteeing all his damage is stun. Not only that but the initial attacks may leave him surprised).


Read the active targeting rules, only the drone w/ the actual sensor-lock on gains those bonus dice to attacking. The drone in question is ALREADY gaining an ORDINARY +2 tacnet bonus simply for being in the tacnet and being fed the information like, the target is here, even though you can't see him (and lock onto him yourself yet).


I wasn't arguing that some actions didn't change... basically what DNI does is changes the 'simple action' activate simple device/manually control device... to a free action.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 10 2010, 07:38 AM) *
I wasn't arguing that some actions didn't change... basically what DNI does is changes the 'simple action' activate simple device/manually control device... to a free action.


Then it looks like we're agreed on that point. To me, its just another nail in the 'jumped in riggers ought to move as a free action' arguement. Moving on...

Blind fire - Ultrawideband radar can and does see through walls. Up to twenty points of structure rating at rating four.
Edit: I am currenly trying to figure out if you would get the -6 blind fire penalty -anyway-, just cause there's a wall in the way.

And, actually... drones -can- sensor targets for other members of the tacnet. Because the tacnet says they can. I am not debating the tacnet bonus, the fact that you need sensor channels and active members to contribute to the tacnet if you want to claim that bonus - that all works as intended. No, there's this little text at the end of the unwired rules, right after the Optional Rule for initiative bonuses. This little snippet has to do with information targeting, and it is not itself an optional rule - poor layout, but, eh.

QUOTE (Unwired 126)
Using targeting data supplied by another team member, tacnets can be used to engage unseen targets with indirect fire (see Indirect Fire, p. 162 Arsenal). Similiar, networked characters can engage in sensor targeting(see p.162, sr4) for other members of their tacnet engaged in vehicle combat.


I don't really care about the Indirect Fire rules, but, basically, tacnets let you paint a target through the tacnet's sensors for your team. Basically, information-guided weapons instead of laser guided. (info-guided is ALSO an indirect fire option in arsenal)

SR4 has this to say on the matter of Sensor Targeting
QUOTE (SR4 126)
Character's can use the vehicle's Sensor Attribute to help with Gunnery. They can do this by two means: passive targeting and active targeting.
Passive Targeting
In passive targeting, the vehicle's sensor attribute substitutes for Agility(or Pilot) as the Linked Attribute, so the attacker rolls gunnery + sensor. The target's Signature is also applied as a negative dice pool modifier.
Active Targeting
Active targeting uses a vehicle's sensors to lock onto a target. To use active targeting, the character/vehicle must first make a Sensor Test to lock onto a target. This requires a Simple Action (see Use Sensors, p. 239). If the character/vehicle wins the test, the net hits are added as a dice pool modifier to the subsequent Gunnery Test. If no hits are achieved, the sensors fail to lock onto the target and an active targeting attack cannot be made.
Once a target has been locked onto, active targeting can be used against it without requiring additional Sensor Tests. If the target vehicle somehow breaks sensor contact, a new target lock must be acquired.

And SR4A agrees completely
QUOTE (SR4A 171)
Active targeting uses a vehicle's Sensors to lock onto a target. To use active targeting, the character/vehicle must first make a Sensor Test to lock onto the target. This requires a Simple Action(see Use Sensors, p. 169). If the character/vehicle wins the test, the net hits are added as a dice pool modifier to the subsequent Gunnery Test. If no hits are achieved, the sensors fail to lock onto the target and an active sensor targeting test cannot be made.
Once a target has been locked onto, active targeting can be used against it without requiring additional Sensor Tests. If the target vehicle somehow breaks sensor contact, a new target lock must be acquired.


Sorry, Falconer, but you're flat out wrong on this point. Tacnetted drones can and DO support each other with shared active sensor targeting, in addition to the tacnet's rating bonus. If you think I'm wrong, please try to find something within the rules and prove it. I did reread the active sensor targeting rules, at your request, and nowhere in that block of text does it say that only the drone/vehicle can gain the bonus - and the tacnet specifically lets you do something special with it anyway. Now that I think about it, if one vehicle's sensors were somehow knocked out(Or jammed, or both), it could Passive Target in combat through linked friendlies. - because the tacnet indirect fire rule says Sensor Targeting, which includes both Active AND passive. How's -that- for cool.

Udoshi
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ May 10 2010, 06:48 AM) *
This thread has been HIGHLY educational.

Fuckin WIN


You know, I really appreciate that. Thanks. If you have any questions about rigging or the matrix in general, please, don't hesitate to ask.
Falconer
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 10 2010, 06:12 PM) *
Then it looks like we're agreed on that point. To me, its just another nail in the 'jumped in riggers ought to move as a free action' arguement. Moving on...

Blind fire - Ultrawideband radar can and does see through walls. Up to twenty points of structure rating at rating four.
Edit: I am currenly trying to figure out if you would get the -6 blind fire penalty -anyway-, just cause there's a wall in the way.


On the active targetting, I completely missed that on my reread since I skipped Indirect fire (your example is direct fire). Thanks for pointing that out. But you're still wrong here.

Indirect fire and information guided attacks are covered on P162 Arsenal (not in the BBB or unwired).

Indirect Fire - "Under most circumstances, a character trying to use a ranged weapon against a target she cannot see or sense must apply a -6 Target Hidden dice pool modifier to such attacks. In certaion situations, however, a character, drone, or vehicle may acquire a target lock for a weapon that is in a different location. This enables the weapon to engage in indirect fire on a target even when it does not have line of sight or a sensor lock on the target.
Indirect fire may only be used if a spotter acquires the target and guides the attack either with spotting information or with a target designator."

As per information guided... you are correct... however it only applies to smartguns, missiles, rockets, mortars, and artillery, not to drones in general. Also, all information guided attacks suffer an AUTOMATIC -4 dice penalty.

Which is a huge bonus. It negates the -6 blind fire penalty. Gives the +tacnet rating bonus. Plus gives the net hits on the sensor test, however also you take an automatic -4 penalty you're ignoring!!! Congrats we're both right (for the wrong reasons smile.gif. I'm right in that your dicepool is normal attack + tacnet rating (no more, by happy accident that your +4 and the -4 cancel). You're right in that you add the sensor hits.




But you still have the move as 'free' completely wrong. Again I repeat one reason why riggers can get 5 passes is because they MUST spend one on a complex action to pilot the vehicle. Then you MUST include that a rigger normally doesn't just bring one drone, but a group of them (running on their own autopilots), in terms of action advantage... a rigger through his commanded drones and his rigged one has a massive advantage in actions on even a street sam. (also the rigger isn't normally at immediate risk of life & limb if his drone gets blown up.. he pops an aspirin and gets a new one... the street sam... gets sold for parts and makes a new char sheet).

If say your two drones fire first, even if they miss, the target is down -2 dice from prior attacks on his reaction roll (and a good chance of being down -wound penalty as well).



That blurb you keep referring too is VERY VERY weak. Unless it EXPLICITLY says it changes it to a free action which it doesn't. At best it refers to the simple actions referred to on page 147-148... IE: change gun mode is normally a simple action... but if you have smartlink (which uses a form of DNI) it changes to a free action (Matrix action, p229). Similarly on the next page "Use Simple Object" is a simple action... such as pressing the button on a remote detonator... w/ DNI that changes to a free action. I'm not aware of any cases in which a complex action is reduced to a free. (in fact, on that same or next page using a vehicle is described as a complex action)


The task in question is on Page 168.
Actions:
"Drivers must spend at least one complex action each round or the vehicle goes out of control at the end of the Combat Turn. Apply a -2 dice pool modifier to all actions by a character in an uncontrolled vehicle. If the driver does not make a Vehicle Test to regain control of the vehicle in one combat turn it crashes."

IE: as a rigger, you're fully free to spend 5 actions in a row gunning something down... Just you'll take a -2 penalty the next turn, and automatically crash the round after that if you don't keep the drone upright. Failure to regain control means you'll crash afterwards (for a bod 3 drone, that's only 1 or 2 points damage unless it's moving fast, and no I don't buy that you're 'immobile' if you're rolling defense dice at all to avoid getting hit. You're not a 'smart firing platform' which is a special type of drone which is immobile and can't dodge). Another way of putting this is the penalty for NOT taking the complex action to keep control of the drone is a slap on the wrist!!!

Another thing I noticed... was drones which take more than their body in damage from a single attack automatically crash if they don't make a Vehicle Skill + Reaction (3)!!! (since most drones have bod3 or less... this means almost any successful attack has a good chance of causing them to crash. Not necessarily rigged ones, but autopilot driven ones w/o the correct autosofts loaded for sure.


More to the point, immediately after that... next paragraph.
"In most cases using any onboard vehicle accessories (sensors, vehicle weapons, etc.) requires spending a Complex Action. (However, there may be some cases where only a Free or Simple Action is necessary, such as turning on/off Sensors or ECM, arming missiles, and so on.)"

Jumping In: (p245)
..."All actions by a rigger who has jumped into a drone (or other device) are considered Matrix actions..."
IE: some actions which need simple actions such as change device mode for non-matrix mode users, or activate simple device... switch to Free actions as per the matrix actions list. See the "Change linked device mode" action in the matrix chapter.

Again we see... for passengers and such... again it's normally a simple action. Unless they're somehow plugged into the vehicle and can treat them as matrix actions. In any case, IF the book lists something as taking a simple action like sensor lock-on... then rigging won't change the speed to free. And this includes the necessarily complex action to pilot vehicle which the matrix actions chapter does not change.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 9 2010, 09:26 PM) *
I think i've found some rules involving how attribute substitution(Command Replaces attribute, sensor replaces intuition, response for agility/reaction, autosofts for skills, that kind of thing) works for jumped in riggers that makes them even better. Its a little involved/technical, but I think its worth mentioning, and I'll post it once I double check my quotes.


Okay. Sorry this has taken me so long to post. Falconer, and the rest of you, I'd appreciate it if you could double-check my work here. This has to do with Gunnery, Perception, Targeting and how drones and riggers substitute stats. I kind of noticed some rules inconsistencies while diving into the book for this thread, and, well, I could use a second opinion. Sorry for the wall of text and rampdant typoes, but these kind of need to be looked at side-by-side.

QUOTE (4a 167 )
Sensors are the vehicular equivalent of the Intuition attribute. (Fluff about Gridguide Cut)
When Driving a vehicle, a driver may use the Sensor attribute instead of Intuition when making Perception Tests and other Intuition-linked Success Tests. Drones always use the sensor attribute for perception tests


QUOTE (4a 63 )
The basic information you've learned so far about tests applies to every test to make in shadowrun. There are, however, three types of tests that may be called for: Success tests, Opposed tests, and Extended Tests.


Okay, so, a driver may swap Sensor in for intuition for success tests, but they don't have to, and if its Opposed, it goes right out. Fair. I think the writers -meant- to say that Pilot programs automatically do this, and forgot to (because Pilot subs for all attributes, and drones are vehicles themselves.)

The great implication here is that a high Intuition rigger type can take a vehicle with crappy/cheap sensors, and make up the difference themselves - OR that a low-int rigger type can pay for more expensive sensors to make up for -his- low stats. Nifty.

QUOTE (4a 171 )
To detect a person, critter, or vehicle with sensors, the character/vehicle must make a successful Sensor+Perception test(sensor+clearsight in the case of drones). If the target is trying to evade detection, make this an Opposed Test versus the target's Infiltration+Agility(metahumans, critters) or Infiltration(Vehicle)+Reaction +/- Handling in the case of vehicles. Since vehicle stealth is limited by the driver's ability, the dice applied for Infiltration skill should not exceed the driver's appropriate Vehicle skill.

Hm. It says to roll Sensor, so okay, but it becomes an opposed test if someone's trying to hide. Annoyingly inconstent. Does this mean a driver could/can roll Intuition + Perception to look at things through is vehicle's sensors? What about for gunnery. Or sensor gunnery?

QUOTE (4a 171 )
The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons. The action required for shooting weapons depends on the mode fired, same as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases vehicle weapons require a complex action to fire. The Gunnery skill is used for vehicle-mounted weapons.

QUOTE (4a 120, on the linked attributes-skills table/sidebar)
Looking at this sidebar, and the Gunnery skill description on page 128, we find that Gunnery is linked to Agility.


So, conceivably, you could roll Agility+Gunnery to make an attack roll, same as all the other weapon skills. If, say, you were using a weapon mount with Manual, and not Remote Controls, or your vehicle didn't have sensors(or they were disabled/shot out, no active targeting). I was kind of thinking of the Thundercloud Morgan - where there's just a guy standing up on the back, holding the gun with his hands. Okay.

QUOTE (4a 171, )
The character can use the vehicles Sensor Attriute to help with Gunnery. They can do this by two means: passive targeting and Active Targeting.
Passive Targeting: In passive targeting, the vehicles Sensor Attribute substitutes for Agility or Pilot as the Linked Atttribute, so the attacker rolls Gunnery+Sensor. The target's Signature modifiers are also applied as a dice pool modifier.
Active Targeting: Active targeting uses a vehicle's Sensors to lock onto a target. To use active targeting, the character/vehicle must first make a Sensor Test to lock onto a target. This require a Simple Action(see Use Sensors p.169) If the character/vehicle wins the test, the net hits are added as the dice pool modifier to the subsequent Gunnery Test. If no hits are achieved, the sensors fail to lock onto the target and an active targeting attack cannot be made. Once a target has been locked onto, active targeting can be used against it without requiring additional Sensor Tests. If the target vehicle somehow brakes a sensor contact, a new target lock must be acquired.


Uh oh. Now we're getting into complex territory. So you -can- use sensor targeting. Okay. Neat. In passive, Sensor swaps for the Attribute, I can live with that. (even if getting shot makes it an Opposed Test, since the defender gets to defend. Specific overrides general, i guess). Alright. Active targeting rolls a Sensor Test(annoying nitpick, it should point at page 171 not 169 - because its just the action type), of Sensor + Perception, net hits blah blah. Oh ho. Sensor Test. Thats a Perception test. Which we -may- substitute Sensor for. What if we want to use Intuition instead? I think that means we can.
Meaning a high Intuition rigger can take nearly any vehicle's sensors(Radar, ultrasound, therms, whatever it has), and repurpose it for target locks. This has some neat implications for off-the-shelf Sensor 1 vehicles - because the rigger can take the hardware he has to work with, and put it to good use anyway. (Sure, it'll go back to crap if the pilot's running it, because they roll sensor+clearsight)
Great. Now that we've got -that- out of the way, lets throw Jumping In to this mess.

QUOTE (4a 245, )
A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger's Initiative - the rigger and drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are made with the rigger's
skills and the drone's attributes.(Substituting Response for Agility and Reaction for Sensor and Intuition).


Hm. So, looking at what we have above, I think this means two things. 1) A Jumped In(and only) could rock out and roll a plain-jane Agility+Gunnery test to shoot someone - and swap Response in instead, rolling Response+Gunnery. (Imho, this is a great, because the less you have to deal with custom Sensor loadouts, the better.) and 2) What if they want to Active Sensor Target that - as a driver(granted, drones always do this, but what if a truck is being rigged, for example?), they 'may' substitute Sensor for Agility, while the jumped-in control method says differently. If its still an option, hey, great - even less of a reason to use the Sensor attribute.

Hopefully, this could open up some options for rigger and drivers. There's some minor tangentially related stuff with remote control and cyborg jarheads, if anyone wants to hear that, too. Yeah, Its kind of a mess, and I'm not sure if i'm putting all those rules together right, wrong or just talking out of my ass, and, well, like I said, a second opinion would be great.
Falconer
Quickly...

You're misapplying the rules. You're reading too much and too little into them. A drone with cheap sensor is cheap because you didn't buy good sensors! You can't magically get around that limitation and turn the test into a natural attribute + skill. Vehicles aren't the only thing which makes sensor tests (sensors are also available in standalone handheld forms).


From your Quote: A *DRIVER* *MAY* use sensor + perception to make a perception test. .... A Drone *ALWAYS* uses sensor.

IE: you're physically in a cheap GAZ P179 pickup truck hauling back a bunch of spare drone parts salvaged from a scrapyard. NORMALLY, as the driver, you would use (intuition + percetion). You're using your MkI eyeball & ears because the pickup only has a sensor rating of 1 off-the-shelf. However, using some of the parts you have laying around you upgrade the sensors on the truck to rating 5 (your intuition is say 3). Now when making perception rolls while driving you have the option of using the sensors (Sensor + Perception) or your normal senses (Intuition + Perception).

A drone on the other hand, ONLY 'perceives' the world through the lens of it's sensors. (pun intended, even when you're jumped into it, you're still looking through a crappy camera) You ALWAYS roll (sensor + perception/clearsight). A rigger jumping in would not substitute his intuiotion. (Note Bene: all vehicles are not drones... they need a rigger modification to be able to be jumped into. All drones are vehicles, not all vehicles are drones, ).


Similarly later on you again try to substitute intuition for a sensor lock-on roll. This is incorrect. A sensor lock-on roll would always use the sensor (or individual sensor as appropriate per GM's discretion. IE: Your spotter drone would only roll it's MM wave radar rating, as it's other sensors can't see through the wall). Your perception skill is your contribution to the test, the drone's half is it's sensor rating (as the test itself is an ongoing action... the vehicle locks-onto it's target and keeps a lock on it). Though one thing I haven't noticed in the rules is if a vehicle can lock multiple targets at once. (If I were GM, not knowing, I'd probably go with max 1 lock per point sensor rating).



Another thing which it never really details is who can do it. The Pilot program is the equivalent of a specialized agent program. Can you use it as a co-pilot/RIO. Can you order it to to lock targets for you while you do other things? While being rigged, the drone won't accept remote commands... but the Pilot program isn't remote. Another item, that's never really spelled out is if multiple people can 'remote control' the same drone at the same time. (IE: I'm remote controlling the driving & sensors, you remote control the gun turret). Similarly, a passenger isn't remote if he's plugged directly into the drone as well. (thinking of crew-served vehicles and subsystems).



Gunnery is confusing in it's own right...
The link to agility is for when you have an actual manually controlled weapon. (look in arsenal under the weapon mount modification). You can make a mount both manual & remote control, IE: you make an armed sidecar for your motorcycle... you make the mount limited flexibility, manual & remote control... (IE: the passenger can use the gun using agility, or someone can engage the electronic controls and motors and control it remotely).

P169: Fire a vehicle weapon is listed a a complex action.
P171: Then says it depends... but gives no clear guidance. Only says "but in almost all cases vehicles weapons rquire a Complex Action to fire."


Pair that ambiguity w/ jumped in though and you get a huge advantage. Rigger can jump in, and lock target in a single pass. Then fire w/ a complex for certain in the action afterwards. Remote control can shift focus as a free action, lock that pass w/ his complex action, fire the action afterwards. Get quality to jump-in as free action, and you could conceivably jump-in, lock, and fire all in the same pass though. (with a single shot or short burst)
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