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jimbo
New metamagic

Insert cool name

Free action. The sustaining spell modifier penalty is reduced by the initiate's grade.


Balancing ideas:
For whatever mumbo-jumbo reason, it is not compatible with Psyche. If an initiate takes Psyche, he can not use this metamagic while RUI.

Limit the reduction in penalty to the number of hits scored on a Magic + initiate grade (+ Spellcasting?) - Wound modifer test. Make this test at the start of each combat turn and note hits. Reduce hits if additional wound penalties come into play.

Example
Lei sheng has taken 1P and 2S damage in a previous firefight and is leaving corp property asap. He is currently sustaining Combat Sense, Increase Reflexes, and Shapechange (on a badly wounded friend who is currently a white crane flying to a streetdoc's home). Lei sheng has a Magic of 6, grade 2 initiate, and Spellcasting 6. He finds himself in another firefight and wins Initiative.

(No Spellcasting included option) At the beginning of his CT he rolls 6+2-1 and scores 2 hits. His sustaining modifer penalty is now -4. He fires off a Manaball with a total -5 penalty (Sustaining and wounds). Later in the CT he is shot and takes 3P. His sustaining modifier penalty is now -5 and his wound modifier is -2, so his next spell is at -7.

(Spellcasting included option) At the beginning of his CT he rolls 6+6+2-1 and scores 4 hits. His sustaining modifer penalty is now -2. He fires off a Manaball with a total -3 penalty (Sustaining and wounds). Later in the CT he is shot and takes 3P. His sustaining modifier penalty is now -3 and his wound modifier is -2, so his next spell is at -5.


Now, based on the experiences of folks who have SRed way longer than me, is the sustaining spell penalty a very necessary mechanic to keep mages "under control" and this metamagic idea a bad one?
Ol' Scratch
Instead of going that route, try recreating something similar to the matrices from Earthdawn. In very broad terms, they allow the initiate to create their own temporary sustaining foci.
Emeraldknite
The Spell Matrices Idea I wanted to try ever since reading Earthdawn. I didn't know what direction I wanted to take it. The first Idea I had was a Meta feat that you create a spell matrix that you can hang your spell to be sustained on and it would sustain it for (magic) Combat Turns. Didn't seem over powered. May be an advanced Meta Feat?
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Custom Metamagics)
Weaving (Magician)
Prerequisite: Quickening
Weaving allows an initiate to alter their spells to temporarily sustain themselves. To use Weaving, the initiate must take a Complex Action to adjust one of their active spells to sustain itself. Once done, the caster no longer suffers sustaining penalties for that spell, & can no longer dismiss the spell or (in the case of Area effects) change its location; the spell may be dispelled as normal (see Dispelling Sustained Spells, p.176 SR4). The spell will end after Magic minutes, after which time, the initiate must recast the spell if they wish to retain its effects.
An initiate may have a number of spells sustained in this way at one time equal to one half Initiate Grade (round up).
Falconer
I heavily recommend against allowing this in any way.

One of the few things which keeps mages in line is that they can't sustain an arsenal of spells at once.


Requiring the use of the free action each round is a good way to bring it a bit more into line though. Since that would stop certain other items such as centering from being used with it. But overall, I can't think of enough free actions that this would interfere with on the mages part to make it balanced though.


The weaving example is especially bad in this regards. As it's too easy to do, with no real drawbacks.
Shinobi Killfist
I don't like metamagic that scales with initiate grades because it can quickly becomes too good. I'd think of a metamagic that reduced sustaining penalties by 1 per spell just like psych and give a fluff reason for why it does not stack would work. Given that psych is not addictive and has no limitations other than cost(god I hate drugs in 4e) dropping x karma into a initiation and using the metamagic to duplicate it seems a fair trade IMO.
Muspellsheimr
The inability to end your spell normally is a significant deterrent to 'pre-buffing'.
The additional Complex Action it takes to activate is a significant drawback when used mid combat.
The metamagic is very limited in the number of spells it can be used to sustain.
The metamagic is an [i]Advanced[i] metamagic.
A number of other metamagic techniques, such as Centering, Masking, & Shielding, are often a higher priority & 'better'.

No, there are no balance issues with Weaving. It does what it is intended to do quite well, but does not in any way overpower a magician or underpower most pre-existing metamagics.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ May 5 2010, 06:30 PM) *
I don't like metamagic that scales with initiate grades because it can quickly becomes too good.

That is a problem with the design of the magic system effectively being 'unlimited' (which almost never comes up in actual play anyways), not the metamagic. Having an effect based on Initiate Grade is actually an extremely effective method for designing metamagic techniques.

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ May 5 2010, 06:30 PM) *
Given that psych is not addictive and has no limitations other than cost(god I hate drugs in 4e) dropping x karma into a initiation and using the metamagic to duplicate it seems a fair trade IMO.

Yes, because a Threshold 2 Addiction Test is not addictive in the slightest. Granted, because Psych is not specifically listed as a stimulant, it can be argued Threshold 2 is not actually Rules as Written, but the minimum listed threshold for drug addiction is still 1.
Falconer
That might be okay if the duration wasn't measured in minutes... When I think weaving, I think it unties in combat turns... not minutes. Possibly even does more drain. (IE: spell drain +2 or similar).

Which is more than enough time to get 3 or 4 good buffs going... IE: increase reflexes for 4 passes... that's 4 spellls cast and 'weaved' in 6seconds.


The problem isn't doing it in combat, it's doing it just prior to combat. And not just on yourself, but on your team.

IE: cast invisibility on your entire team in 9s... then watching it last for 5 minutes. With the rediculously low drain on increase body for example... you could multi-cast it w/ a split pool and get it up on multiple recipients even faster. (+body is better than +armor)


If you haven't noticed initiation costs are now very cheap, making scaling initiate metamagics much better than they used to be.
Ol' Scratch
I didn't realize that initiation was ever that expensive.

Anyway, if I were writing such a technique, I'd limit it to a single spell at any given time, up to (Magic) force that lasts (Grade) minutes. I'd then allow the technique to be learned multiple times, allowing you to create multiple matrices. It would basically give the initiate a free sustaining focus in which Drain was still an issue (as opposed to normal foci where you can cast it days or weeks in advance), but made up for it by being usable with any of their spells, not just spells from a single category.

There's nothing wrong with techniques that scale with grades. It's how they scale that's important.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 5 2010, 07:39 PM) *
Yes, because a Threshold 2 Addiction Test is not addictive in the slightest. Granted, because Psych is not specifically listed as a stimulant, it can be argued Threshold 2 is not actually Rules as Written, but the minimum listed threshold for drug addiction is still 1.


Except a GM should only call for an addiction test for habitual use, brutal benders or overexposure. So no its not addictive unless for some really odd reason you are shooting up every day.(roleplaying whatever) So if you just use it for runs which is what once or twice a month maybe 3-4 times a month you don't get addicted ever. By the rules all combat drugs(and I put psych there) aren't really addictive because you wont be using them enough to get addicted. Yes a GM can call for a addiction test outside of these circumstances or just say poof you are addicted but he can also call for an orbital strike on the characters.
DMiller
I like your Weaving Metamagic. I would add one final thing to it though.

"Weaving a spell causes drain equal to the drain of the spell being weaved."

This minor change could limit it's "during combat" buffing ability a little. After that I think it's very well balanced.

D
Hagga
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ May 6 2010, 01:01 AM) *
Except a GM should only call for an addiction test for habitual use, brutal benders or overexposure. So no its not addictive unless for some really odd reason you are shooting up every day.(roleplaying whatever) So if you just use it for runs which is what once or twice a month maybe 3-4 times a month you don't get addicted ever. By the rules all combat drugs(and I put psych there) aren't really addictive because you wont be using them enough to get addicted. Yes a GM can call for a addiction test outside of these circumstances or just say poof you are addicted but he can also call for an orbital strike on the characters.



Cigarette companies manipulate the level of nicotine to ensure it is possible to get you addicted in only one smoke. Would drug dealers, those paragons of ethics and good business practices that certainly don't harm clients, be any different?
Udoshi
I would consider changing Weaving to last Turns instead of Minutes, which puts it more on par with Adept Boosting - but I would also consider allowing someone with the Weaving metamagic to work a spell into Wards. I would also put a clause in about Dispelling it - since its self-sustaining, and the caster isn't actively concentrating on it, it should probably be dispelled with Force instead of Force+caster's magic for balance purposes - which leaves quickening as a good alternative. Weaving is supposed to be *temporary*.
Other things to consider: Weaved spells's astral signatures can be traced back to their casters.


I was thinking about metamagics, and figured this was a good thread to contribute one of my own for critique.
Name: (blank)
Effect: For each initiate grade, the initiate may ignore one box of Drain damage when calculating wound modifiers, but only when doing performing Magic-linked activities. In addition, if you enter condition monitor overflow, due to drain, the dead man's trigger rule is automatically invoked with the following exceptions: Edge is not spent, the body+willpower roll is automatically passed, and the character may take one passes worth of actions - but must use a magic-linked skill, spell, or something similiar.(a simple action from DMT isn't enough to cast.), and wound penalties do not apply to this roll.
Why: Magic can take a lot from you - and this metamagic dares it to. Its basically high pain tolerance for drain, but only while doing magic related things. Its also inherently self-destructive - if you can ignore drain while casting, well, why stop at all?
Uses: Well, if you bind or invoke a high force spirit, and fail miserably, you get One Last Chance to call for help before you bleed out - or give up your life to do something epic with your dying breath. On the low end, its generally useful if you have to cast a lot, and aren't willing to get drugs or augmentation to help deal with the drain building up. I was considering not allowing hand-of-god for the grand finale, but, really, if someone manages to find you in time and make a stabilization test with all the -additional- drain from that last spell- hell, you deserve to live.
Muspellsheimr
Concept is alright, but not something I would normally work with for various reasons.
Application - not so much. It creates unnecessary additional complications & bookkeeping for a particularly weak benefit.

Provide reasonable fluff on the how/why, & change it to apply to all damage, and the metamagic would actually be useful, if still pathetically weak.
Change it further to apply to Wound Modifiers, instead of damage boxes, and it would actually be reasonable, if still something I would likely never use (most other metamagics would still generally be better choices).

Regardless of any other changes (or lack thereof), I would cut out the Dead Man's Trigger aspect entirely.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2010, 07:46 PM) *
IE: cast invisibility on your entire team in 9s... then watching it last for 5 minutes. With the rediculously low drain on increase body for example... you could multi-cast it w/ a split pool and get it up on multiple recipients even faster. (+body is better than +armor)


I agree with 90% of your thoughts, however the increase attribute spells have a minimum forece of the pre-boost stat (AFB right now, but I remember tyring to build a mage around buffing party members) With the increased drain for multi casting and the retardedly high force you would need to augment the Street Sam this may not be practical.
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