Hello

Just given most of the 4th books for my birthday. Mainly played 2nd edition and some in the 3rd. The weapon stats really seemed to have changed. Are they now not that different from one another ? No more L or M damage etc.. . , everything is P. No conceal numbers , no weights. Only one number seperates light and heavy pistol damage it seems. Is it somehow like the 2nd/3rd with the new combat rules ?

What drew me into SR in the first place was flipping thru the SS Catalog at the book store years ago and seeing the Colt Manhunter. Now it seems rather ... blah. And I can't live in a world where the Manhunter is blah, I just won't do it.

Fixed Target Numbers. L is 3 DV(Boxes), M is 6 DV(boxes) Conceal is based on object size, weights/encumbrance are left out entirely.

Welcome to Dumpshock.

'P' stands for physical as in Physical Damage where 'S' stands for Stun Damage. I know it might sound a little rude but I think is best for you read the book first and then come ask questions then just say "I bought the book, saw the damage codes, didn't read the book yet but can't understand them."

Weight is something that a lot of people miss though. But yeah, it was left out for "abstraction"

"I don't understand the rules, but they suck!"

The days of having everything illustrated and half page art is gone, has been really since early second edition. The 4th edition uses some new mechanics based on fixed target numbers and attempts to unify some of the swelling mechanics that plague the magic and matrix rules. It has it's strengths and weakness's. So did the other editions. About half of my current group has played since 1st/2nd edition and generally agree 4th edition runs smoother then past editions. Thats not saying there aren't problems or complaints. (I as a GM have definitely had to to alot less house ruling with 4th edition. Others on DS might argue with that.) But by far 4th edition has less stumbling blocks then the other editions and at least for my group is our edition of choice.
(Thats not saying I still don't have some great 1st/2nd edition memories.)

So without reading any rules, you entirely base the quality of a game on how powerful the colt manhunter is? And without at least taking a cursory glance at the rules you are surprised that you don't understand what the giant lists of tables mean?

Got to agree with Brazilian_Shinobi, may seem rude, but actually read the book at least slightly first, it'll generate answers much faster than the forums will, not to mention actually let you learn the rules as opposed to being told bits and pieces at a time.

really, the colt manhunter is still one of the better heavy pistols, and may be the best model to start from for modifications. from the list in arsenal, the manhunter has the largest clip (unless you want to shoot flechettes, then its the silvergun). its got a laser sight, which may be preferable for those who dont have smartlink cyberware. its a lot of quality for not much cost.

you can still use the fluff from the old books for roleplaying supplements. we just have new rules in the newer editions to tell us how things work in the game system. the lack of weight is a good thing. the lack of conceal info per weapon isnt a bad thing, although we could use a better chart of concealing items overall. long coat and concealed holster both give bonuses for what is now a rather hard-to-find rule.

Maybe Mutantpoo doesn't like what the Colt Manhunter looks like ?
(what was the English word ? Gunporn ?)

with a beautiful Dance
Medicineman

No, more like SR1.

To be fair, some people actually prefer having the mass and concealment values of the various bits provided.

True. I admit it would be nice to know roughly how heavy/concealable some things are, like some of the sniper rifles or heavier guns. The assault cannons for example are 'big' but the book provides no real scale for how large.

well, technically we do have a concealibility list, its just a bit hard to find. at the beginning of the gear section in the main book (SR4 page 302), is the concealability table. it just has general numbers, so your sniper rifle is at +6 dice to be perceived. the rules section that this relates to is on the previous page, concerning the opposed test to see things.

really there are three separate rules for finding hidden gear- visual, pat-down(half mods), and cyberware scanner/MAD/radar.

so, if you have a holdout pistol in a concealed holster under a lined coat, thats a net -8 dice for a visual search, -4 for a pat-down, and a simple threshold 1 check for the scanner. a heavy pistol would only be -4 or -2 for the search, and an SMG would end up at +2 under that coat. if the guy looking can buy a hit to see it, then he probably sees it. some specific guns have other modifiers in their description, but for most its a fairly simple chart these days.

when all is said and done, for bigger guns your actually better off hiding in plain sight with a fake permit and not bothering to hide it. or else just have the mage cast an illusion.