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Banaticus
So, Bubba Joe the Redneck Runner is surrounded by 7 Red Samurai, all with uberKatanas. Bubba Joe is only armed with his hands, but luckily he's trained in the martial art of Arnis de Mano. Not only does he know the Disarm maneuver (Arsenal p159), he has +1 die to disarm tests, has specialized his unarmed attack in parry and can also deal damage when disarming (Arsenal p157 under Arnis de Mano -- it's one of the things he's chosen to know with his Martial Arts quality).

We'll also say that Bubba Joe has 6 (cool.gif Unarmed Attack (parry), 6 Reaction.

So each of these Samurai attack Bubba Joe who decides that he should go on full parry and that he's going to try to disarm all the samurai. So, (8*2+6) +1 (martial arts) -4 (disarm maneuver) = 19 dice to his disarm test. He scores more hits than the samurai and knocks the sword out of the samurai's hands. He also deals damage -- does he make a separate unarmed attack test to attack or do his net disarm (parry) hits compared to the samurai's attack translate directly into increasing his base unarmed attack DV?

So, he keeps doing this and all 7 of the samurai attack him and he disarms all of them and attacks them back. Now it's his turn in the IP and he attacks one of them? Or were all of those disarm attacks interrupts and he's used up his next 7 actions? Even with Wired Reflexes III, is he down to only responding for the next two full combat turns?

Ok, let's say that the disarm attacks weren't interrupt actions, that he just got to make them. After disarming and dealing damage with the disarm (however that works out), he chooses to use the Finishing Move maneuver (Arsenl p159), which allows him to immediately follow up a successful strike (whether it dealt damage or not) with a regular attack that is an interrupt attack. Now, after doing that to all 7 samurai in the same IP, is he out of actions on his own for the next 7 IP? If the painful disarms weren't interrupts, then is he now out of actions of his own for the next 14 IP (even with Wired Reflexes III, for the next 3 solid Combat Turns)?

This is how I think the Transporter movie fights are best represented. wink.gif
svenftw
Between the bonuses the Samurai get from having friends in the melee and the decreasing defense pool for each successive attack I'm not sure 19 dice is near enough to disarm all seven of them. He's going to be at a further -6 by the time #7 gets his turn.

I know this doesn't answer your actual questions, I was just sayin'.
Teulisch
well, first question i had is does he have any impact armor on his hands/forearms? if he does it makes his life a whole lot easier, but if he doesn't then its probably going to hurt.

on IP, i would say you should not be able to use more actions in a turn than you have in that specific turn. so if he has 3IP total, he could use only 3 IP that round. which means he has a limit to how many finishing moves he could get to use. I would not allow a finishing move on a disarm, as it is a Defense, not a Strike. a full-parry prevents him from striking. damage done is a bonus to your defense, not a strike by itself.

the martial art you quote, while being technically correct, is wrong in the spirit of its use, as it is a blades/clubs style, not an unarmed style. you would do damage on a disarm while using a club or knife, but not with bare hands. an unarmed man with special training in armed combat is still an unarmed man.

Summerstorm
He may start out fine... but as sven said: it is likely he will get his ass kicked/sliced after a few attacks:

So he has: (2*6)+2 (unarmed skill +spec) +6 (agi) - 4 disarm + 1 (martial arts) = ~17 and will lose one more every attack
They have: 6+2 (skill+spec) + 7 (agi) + 4 (friends in melee) + 1 (reach) = ~20 (you said it were Red Samurai, yes?)

Depending on the GM they maybe even get the "Better position" mod too.

But yes, he can defend against anything as long as he has dice left and loses just one IP. But the Finishing move: nope: one, maybe. but not more until he got to have an action again.

EDIT: fixed for parry instead of dodge, sorry
Banaticus
Full Parry isn't calculated the same as a Full Dodge -- a full parry is (combat skill x 2 + reaction) -4 for the disarm martial arts maneuver, so (8x2+6) -4 (maneuver) +1 (martial arts style) for 19 dice. wink.gif I don't see why they'd get a better position mod unless they were on more stable group or dropping down on him or something like that.

Anyway, how is the painful disarm attack calculated? Separate attack roll or use net hits between the attack and the parry or what?
Dakka Dakka
Arnis de mano does not only teach stick-fighting. Unarmed techniques are in that school as well.

Interrupt actions take up the next available action. This may even go into the next turn, but only one action in that turn.

BTW it is Unarmed Combat (Parry) 6(+2) and not 6(8 ). So Pool on Full Parry REA+2*6+2+other modifiers.

The damage for the disarm is calculated with the net hits of the disarm.
Banaticus
I don't know, when looking at a specialty, 8 is the augmented skill, so I think that's what's doubled. It's like a strength of 4(8) with bioware muscle strengthener -- 8 is the augmented strength and used for calculating things.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 14 2010, 08:17 PM) *
I don't know, when looking at a specialty, 8 is the augmented skill, so I think that's what's doubled. It's like a strength of 4(cool.gif with bioware muscle strengthener -- 8 is the augmented strength and used for calculating things.
Specializations do not augment the skill in SR4. They only add bonus dice and you are no supposed to write 6(8 ):
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 121')
Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test.

[...]

A specialization is usually listed in parentheses after the skill name. For example, if a character with the Pistols skill at 3 specializes in the use of Revolvers, that character’s skill and specialization would read Pistols 3 (Revolver +2).

Karoline
As Dakka said, it is going to be 6*2+2+6+1-4=17 dice on the defense, you do damage as if you'd had net hits on the attack equal to the net hits on your defense roll. It is important to note though that you can only parry with a weapon, unarmed can only block, though I don't know if that is intentional for disallowing the disarm maneuver while unarmed. It is also important to note in your example that they will be getting +4 bonus to attack for friends in melee, as well as a +1 for reach, and your disarming guy will be at -1 for each previous attacker, so 17 dice on the first opponent, then 16 on the second, and so on until only using 11 dice. And even if you're looking at joe samurai with a superkatana who only has 3 agi and 3 skill, that is still 3+3+4+1=11 dice, so the last one just might manage a hit, and that is of course assuming a top end runner against a group of fairly inept opponents.
Banaticus
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 14 2010, 05:29 PM) *
It is important to note though that you can only parry with a weapon...

Unless you have the Killing Hands adept power, so that your hands are weapons?
Karoline
QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 14 2010, 08:50 PM) *
Unless you have the Killing Hands adept power, so that your hands are weapons?


Nope, specifically uses a melee weapon skill, which is distinctly different from the unarmed skill, regardless of things like killing hands or hardliner gloves or shock hands.

Edit: Like I said, though, I'm not so sure this is intentionally done to disallow unarmed working with the disarm maneuver. But given that Arnis De Mano is a weapon art (according to the book) it might be intentional.
Banaticus
Well, I'll disagree. smile.gif

I think there's too much martial arts precedence for a martial arts character who's learned the disarm maneuver and who has the killing hands power which "uses magic to transform unarmed attacks into lethal physical damage" to not ever be able to disarm anyone.
Karoline
QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 14 2010, 09:55 PM) *
Well, I'll disagree. smile.gif

I think there's too much martial arts precedence for a martial arts character who's learned the disarm maneuver and who has the killing hands power which "uses magic to transform unarmed attacks into lethal physical damage" to not ever be able to disarm anyone.


Never said an unarmed person couldn't disarm someone, I just said that the disarm maneuver (in arsenal) requires you to parry to make use of it, and parry requires a melee weapon skill (blades or clubs). Like I said, may or may not have been intentional, but killing hands doesn't change that the person is still unarmed.
Dakka Dakka
The wording of the rules is less than clear but logically you can only come to one conclusion. Normal Defense is divided into three categories in the BBB: Dodge (avoiding the attack by movement) Block (defending with Unarmed Combat) and Parry (defending with a melee weapon skill).
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 156')
Defenders have three choices for defending against unarmed attacks. If they have a melee weapon in hand, they can parry the attack by rolling the appropriate weapon skill + Reaction. If they have Unarmed Combat skill, they can choose to block by rolling Unarmed Combat + Reaction. Or they can simply dodge out of the way using Dodge + Reaction.

There are however only three types of Full Defenses as well: Full Dodge, Full Parry and Gymnastics Dodge. Full Parry uses any melee skill, this includes armed and unarmed skills.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 161')
Full defense can be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastics dodge.
[snip Full Dodge]
Full Parry: Characters who go on full parry roll (melee combat skill x 2) + Reaction against any and all melee attacks made against them. Full parry may not be used against ranged attacks.


So a Full Block is included in Full Parry, but Block is distinct from Parry. As such you can also use the disarm maneuver unarmed.
Manunancy
My interpretation would be that disarminng is a specific action which is based on a full defense check - which means that on a given initiative pass you disarm against one opponent and stay in full defense until your next action against the others opponents. The idea behind using ful ldefenseas a base roll is that you're going on the defensive to get rid of the opponent's weapon.

The wording of the disarming manoeuver isn't exactly clear but I understand as declaring a disarm attempt against one chosen opponent as your action for that initiative pass.
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