Okay, so in one of my games, a character wants to create a Manipulation spell, Sword of the Spirit (As an aside, he's a Christian Theurgist); I have a few questions for everybody here at Dumpshock.

Sword of the Spirit would create a bladed weapon of a material similar to Physical Barrier, another spell he knows; I suppose it would be Touch range, since it is creating a sword in his hand, and the damage code would be (STR/2)+net hits on the Spellcasting test; it would, in effect, be a sharpened Barrier or Armor spell projecting from the hand of the wielder, with the "handle" unsharpened. Drain would be (F/2)-1

Now, for the questions. First, and most importantly, would this count as a complex object (as per the sidebar pages 159-160, Street Magic), as it is basically a sharpened stick? Second, would the school need to be different? Third, does it make sense as written? Finally, are there any changes I should make?

read SM p. 160:
Sorcery Cannot Create Magical Items
and
Sorcery Cannot Create Complex Things

so no spirit slaying sword - i assume he was aiming for a weapon focus substitute to ignore itnw..
if you want to make it a physical barrier version, then adjust the drain accordingly. this spell will be much more difficult than the barrier...

A manipulation in mana creating a "sharp" version of a barrier spell would be completely possible, it is neither complex or an item - it is still a sustained spell. After all, it is made of the same "material" as a physical barrier which is nothing but mana and not a physical "thing".

For balance I would add a few things.

Drain Code:
+1 for Reach (it is a sword so it should have a reach)

Possible elemental effect: Light (add +1 drain) for that bright holy look. or possible flaming sword.

The mage would still have the problem of sustaining it with a -2 for every action.

i gave it some more thoughts:

-touch version of Flamethrower (substitute with light if prefered) that looks like a sword for fluff reasons and uses Blades skill instead of Unarmed. Drain is +1

@the Jopp: elemental effect is +2 drain

If this is mearly a sharp version of a barrier spell then I think the normal rules for moving a spells effect would come into play.

I'm away from books at the moment but I have a feeling there is a limit to how much you can move a spell around in a turn but i could be wrong here.


As a concept I think its kinda cool but from a game perspective I dont think its really workable you cant really have a scalable (net hits adding) magical weapon that can be called into being at the drop of a hat with almost no drain. We have weapon focuses for most of the benifits but with the expected drawback of it being able to be taken away from you. This would be a perfect weapon with almost no downsides.

The concept doesn't seems too far-fetched, and a sword is a fra cry from a complex object - the shape and balance are important but there are no moving parts. Other weapons will probably be possible.

I would use the strength of the spell as a limiting factor to the damage code rather than going for the STR/2+spell strength you're proposing. A stronger item won't cut better but you can apply more power behind it. This seems more balanced than the version you're suggesting which has a potential for ludicrous damage.

One thing - the name? What's wrong with Magic Sword or something?

yet SM says even a hammer is too complex

How is making it STR/2 + Force more balanced? Spells are always limited in net hits by force, this would just make the weapon act as if he had achieved max hits on his original spell all the time.

I personally think this should be worked like the spirit's natural weapon power, with damage being equal to the force of the spell and strength not being involved whatsoever. This object would be like a monofilament whip in nature considering that the blade could be almost 2-dimensional. Something like Damage equal to force and AP equal to net hits would be how this would work in my opinion, with drain being the same as a Physical Barrier spell at F/2 + 3

To be honest, this spell, mechanically, looks pretty much like Energy Aura to me. (because it modifies melee attacks)

Just use the spell creation rules in Street Magic, and swap elemental damage to physical. Or leave it as, like, light or fire, or possibly both if you wanted to summon up the sword of an archangel(or something) and hit people with it.

Possibly swap out the 'hits people who hit you in melee' for being able to be used with melee weapons.

I'd say Soulbalde = Death Touch, just you use Blades instead of Unarmed, and you get +2 for reach instead for a touch only attack. Spellcasting test and drain is suffered everytime you hit. The player gets to have the holy sword illusion effect for free because you're a nice GM.

Seems easiest and most in line with the rules.

Especially since barriers can only be moved in a very limited fashion, if that has not changed in 4th from 3rd . .

I would probably go with this option, because you are right, it does sound like an example of Energy Aura, with a different Visual Effect... and since you would generally be rolling your Defense against Melee attacks, it still makes sense for the "Blade" to harm an attacker as well...


Keep the Faith

Says right there, "but the days of summoning weapons from nowhere have not yet arrived."

That being said, let's step through the spell design process.
1. It's a combat spell -- it's designed to hurt, to kill.
2. It's a physical spell.
3. It has a range of touch.
4. It is an instant spell -- combat spells may only be instant spells.
5. The spell affects unwilling targets and can therefore be resisted. As a combat spell, it's an opposed test.
6. It has a base drain value of (force / 2). Additional modifiers are as follows:
+1 (physical spell)
-2 (touch range)
+0 (sustained)
+0 physical damage ... or +2 for elemental damage in addition to physical damage (if it's not just a sword, it's a hot sword and causes heat damage)
+2 for an elemental effect (if it's so hot it can actually set things on fire)

So drain value of F/2-1 for a regular magical sword or F/2+3 for something like the following...
"So [the Lord God] drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

That being said, this would be an indirect combat spell, so physical armor would apply to the attack -- probably half Impact armor (round up) and the fire resistant upgrade to armor would add its full value. The damage would be physical, resisted by body, limited by the force of the spell.

So, each combat turn, just pop it up for free, rolling for drain. I'd reccomend a force of, say, 4, just so you would likely make the drain check each round with your attribute + magic of 12 dice (you did start with 6's in both, right? Magic/Resonance is the single most expensive thing in the game to buy with karma, buy it as high as you can with BP while you can).

By the way, the rules for fire damage are on pp164-165 in SR4A.

One other thing to consider: Can you move a mana barrier physically?

Mana Barrier
Mana Barrier creates an invisible barrier of magical energy with a Force equal to the net hits scored. This barrier does not restrict living beings or physical objects, but it does impede spirits, foci, dual beings, and spells.

Player Characters are not spirits, foci, dual beings or spells. Also, the spell mentions nothing on moving a mana barrier. How will a physical being swing a mana sword?

By using the power of his MIND of course.

Magic isn't used on drain resistance, its willpower + charisma/logic/intuition(depending on your tradition)

What I had in mind was a basic damage of something like STR/2+1 or 2 (similar to a regular sword, I haven't the book to check) no matter what the spell's foce, with a maximum damage code equal to the spell's strength.
example : if the damage is STR/2+2, a mage with a STR score of 4 would get a damage code of 4 - if the spell is cast at force 3, the damage would be 3 (capped by the spell's force as the 'blade' can't take more force), at force 4+ it would be 4 (since the mage's muscles can't give more punch)

By virtue of the existence of the Combat school of magic, such a spell would need to be a Combat spell. Much like how Lighting Bolt and Fireball are now Combat spells.

As others have said, simply transform a Combat spell of choice into a Touch ranged spell and add a stipulation where it uses the Blades skill. You could then perhaps add a stipulation where it counts as a sword for purposes of other spells such as one that ignites it with an elemental effect. I am unsure if this spell has made it to the new edition but it certainly existed in previous ones. Either way such a spell would go a long way towards making the base spell more interesting and different from other available options.

When you case a touch spell, you get to make an unarmed combat test as part of spellcasting.(4a 203). Swapping Blades for Unarmed Combat seems a fairly easy swap. However, casting this spell each time you want to use it is cumbersome as heck, and unnecessary.

Let's take a look at what we want this spell to do.
1) Hit people
2) Do damage in melee
3) Look swordlike.

Now we move this over to game terms. Let's take a look at Element Aura:

Element Aura does the following:(SM 173)
"This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies around a subject's body. Each element requires a different spell(flame aura, electrical aura, cold aura, etc). This fiery aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any melee attack by the caster's hits. Attacks are treated as Cold, Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage(p155, sr4, p164-65 SM) as appropriate to the aura, and are resisted with half impact armor. Any successful physical melee attack against the subject a
lso means that the attacker must resist similiar damage from the aura. The aura's Damage Value equals the spell's Force."
Category: Manipulation Type: Physical. Range: LOS. Duration: Sustained. Drain: (Force/2)+3

So it:
Increases the damage you do in melee, and turns it into elemental damage, adding AP-half.(unless the element says it doesn't.)
It hits people who hit you.
It gives you a visible Elemental aura.

Lets pair this with Street Magic's expanded elemental options on 164:
Metal: "The Metal elemental effect damages the target with small metallic(iron) fragments and shrapnel. This attack is similiar to Flechette ammunition: Increase the DV by +2, but the attacker suffers a +2 AP penalty against Impact armor. Metal damage attacks are resisted with Impact Armor. As a secondary effect, Metal damage may shred some easily cut materials like cheap fabrics" (I believe this is a typo, and is meant to be +2/+5.)

So we have a Metal Aura, dealing metal damage, and letting us punch(or knife) people for even more damage. The "visible aura"..... simply looks like a sword. In fact, using this spell may even summon several swords - the floating ones just stab people who try to hurt you. Just like in that bible quote. I ain't done yet, though.


However. I like that quote, fire damage is great, and the character is a christian theurgist already. So there's that option:
Fire Damage( SR4a164): AP-Half, Physical damage, Fire Resist armor upgrade adds full value. May set things on fire: If it does, each Combat Turn it the DV either goes up(if its spreading) or down(if its being put out, running out of fuel, or the item isn't very flammable), doing that DV every turn until it reaches zero.

Why not have both!
We're going to take Metal(Sword) Aura, and throw it into Street Magic's spell creation rules, and borrow a page from the silly fire-water line of spells, and add a second elemental effect(Since its a Manipulation spell, it must be a Physical spell with Physical damage, and nets +2 drain, making it Force/2+5)
Which makes it great. It does extra damage from Metal, and the extra AP the defender gets is Halved from Fire. And it sets people on fire. It also lets you summon up an aura of flaming swords.
"Look ma! No-hands old testament baddassery!"


Edit: I am dumb, and this is basically Digital Grimoire's FireWater aura, subbing Metal for Water.

....That's actually quite amazing....I like it. I'll bring it up to the player

You're very welcome. Just be wary of the high drain code - even at low force, say, 3 or so, it should be fairly effective.
Also, Force doesn't limit hits from Edge dice - if your player is inclined to break out this spell for a serious 'i need to kill stuff' moment, it may be a way to prevent him from not flopping over from the drain after casting it.

Additionally, there's no Blades skill involved by default - the player may want a knife(Ceramic, Survival, other), possibly a weapon focus to use with the spell. Then again, if he has a decent unarmed combat skill, there's no need. The spell itself ought to take care of the DV.

Yeah ita pretty neat, but the drain code of F/2+6 is pretty nasty, so i hope the character in question has a good drain resistance pool and i also higly succest gettin atleast a fetish for the spell, maybe even a blood fetish. Even with 16 dice a force 3 spell will inflickt an avarage of 2 points of stun damage so he should also seriously concider getting platetet factories implanted.

Is there a rule that says combat spells cant be sustained?

I have to go over Street Magic again but I know in the SR3 rules that I created a "Holy Sword" spell for a Christian Mage once. I just created a manipulation spell with the Metal elemental effect and the sword was maintained as long as you concentrated on it (ie sustained spell). I could have make the spell permanent but that would have defeated the two main advantages of the spell, first it could be cast in one round as permanent spells take time to "brew", secondly to have access to a weapon in areas where you normally can't have a weapon (it doesn't make sense to create a permanent sword and then have to sneak it through a security check point).

Yes, Street Magic, page 162, under the Combat Spells heading:

"Combat spells are always Instant in duration; they may not be sustained or permanent."

Keep the Faith

Looking through the Street Magic Spell Creation rules you could do the following:

Create Sword (Manipulation):
(F/2)+1 Drain, Sustained
This spell transmutes a small metal item in the casters hand into a fully functioning sword. This spell can only be used on a coin sized metal object and the object remains a sword as long as the caster maintains concentration on the object. The sword has the following stats (Reach 1, Damage (Str/2)+3 P).

Metal Sword (Combat):
(F/2)+2 Drain, Instant, LOS* (Restricted to 1m (ie the length of a sword))
This spell creates a Metal blade that strikes forth from the caster's hands into an unexpected enemy dealing F + 2 (+successes) DV damage. The target does get to resist with Impact armour and gets a +2 AP bonus to resist this spell.

Light Sword (Combat):
(F/2)+2 Drain, Instant, LOS* (Restricted to 1m (ie the length of a sword))
This spell creates a Brilliant blade that strikes forth from the caster's hands into an unexpected enemy dealing F (+successes) DV damage. The target does get to resist with 1/2 Impact armour (round up). Treat the attack as a Light attack (Flare effect and can light highly flammable materials).

Soul Sword (Combat):
(F/2)+4 Drain, Instant, LOS* (Restricted to 1m (ie the length of a sword))
This spell creates a Brilliant Metal blade that strikes forth from the caster's hands into an unexpected enemy dealing F + 2 (+successes) DV damage. The target does get to resist with 1/2 Impact armour (round up) and gets a +2 AP bonus to resist this spell. Treat the attack as a Light attack (Flare effect and can light highly flammable materials). This Brilliant Blade leaves an afterglow from the casters hands giving the effect that the caster wields an ethereal blade.

Now as some people will testify I dont think mages are particually over powered but those options are very light on drain for what is effectivly a weapon that you can use even in a high security area because your saying you can use any small metal item for it. There is no downside. Basic elemental effects get a +3 code what you have there would warrent even higher drain.

I was using the original Street Magic not the Errata'd one so you should increase the Drain for the Combat spells by +1. The Manipulation spell doesn't have an elemental effect as it states in the rules that to add an elemental effect the spell must do physical damage. I instead choose to have a Very Restrictive Target (ie Metal Coin) and cause a Major Physical Manipulation (ie turning it into a sword). The rules state (again un Errata'd) you can't create something from nothing so that is why I chose a Metal Coin.

If you make a full-sized sword from a small coin, your still creating somethink from nothink as that sword has a whole lot mere metall then the coin.

Also, with Memory Metals and your Belt doubling as your sword, why would you do that?

For a name, what about 'bob'? I like 'Bob.' Even better is Phred

Was SM based on Kubrician technolongy levels then?

Well, a good hammer consists of at least 3 different parts.
The handle, the head and the splint. Maybe something around the handle for a better grip too.
But stuff made from one part only should be simple enough . .

I was pointing out that you can't say create a sword from the air in a room. But now that I think of it there isn't any restriction in the rules per say. I am aware that there is not nearly enough matter in a coin to create a sword (let alone the hilt, grip, etc) but that isn't the point. The point is you are doing a major manipulation to the molecules in a coin to temporary change its shape, the number of atoms, the structure, etc so that it is no longer a coin but a sword. I don't have to fully justify in real physics how the magic does it, because frankly it is magic! I just judged from a game mechanic POV that it was a major manipulation and since I want the manipulation to occur in one combat round, I make the manipulation spell a sustained one.

At which point, following that logic, Mist no longer works, nor does Shapechange, Dritter Form, or any number of Manipulation Spells...

I say that those spells are within both the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, as many of the Manipulation Spells are constructed this way...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Or just one good bone.

I understand the rational of trying to reason out how a spell works, but the laws of magic are not the same as the laws of nature. As such laws such as the conservation of mass, the transformation of objects (like if you did turn lead into gold it would be highly radioactive and very unstable), and conservation of energy don't always apply. It is more the conservation of the mental mind and its ability to believe that a coin can turn into a sword that matters with magic. It's hand wavium, but as long you don't break the game mechanics, the only restriction is your creativity.

This be a warning to GMs out there though, monitor custom spells so that munchkin players don't take advantage of the system. We don't want a turn Coin into Nuke spell.

Indeed... which was kind of my point above...

Keep the Faith

Yes, but there's also a part that says that all sorts of corporations have researched this and nobody has figured out how to summon up a sword in your hand without a weapon focus, which (in my mind) seems that this spell should be as difficult as teleportation (since as many people have tried to do that as well). However, we're just ignoring that part.

I think what I set out on the first page is fairly reasonable.

But a re-flavored Elemental Aura is just fluff at that point, it is not a real sword at all... it is exactly the same spell it was before, with the difference of possible alternate elemental effects, and visual fluff... so it doesn't change anything...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Why are you guys saying to make a real sword with mgaic? I dont understand that need. It doesnt have to be metal. It could be more like a lightsaber or something, and I remember a spell just like that in 3rd edition.

Because Magic can do everything(better) <.<

Heheheh...

Keep the Faith

Magic isn't necessarily better, it just is. it's a tool to be used for good or evil depending on the user, the way a crow bar could be used to pry someone out of a wreck or beat their brains out.