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10gauge
Since Raygun's site is down for month now, I decided to host a mirror of his fantastic Shadowrun And Firearms site. I think he would also think that his site should stay available to the community. I know that there is another mirror - somewhere, but two of them are better than one.

Shadowrun And Firearms


If you look for a PDF version of Shadowrun And Firearms, you will find it here:

Shadowrun And Firearms PDF Version

The PDF is Raygun approved. smile.gif

Cheers!
Rajaat99
Thank you.
Kliko
Oehh... I love that P90, though in-game I'd just take the stats from an Ingram Supermach and call it a P9X.
Wounded Ronin
Hell yeah! I was about to sacrifice a goat to Raygun to make those files re-appear, but I guess that now there's no need.
Bob Lord of Evil
Excellent!

One of my favorite SR sites!

Now...what about Blackjack's site? biggrin.gif
10gauge
QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ May 31 2010, 10:20 PM) *
Excellent!

One of my favorite SR sites!

Now...what about Blackjack's site? biggrin.gif

You can download the following of Blackjack's stuff from my site:

Shadowrun According To Blackjack Part 1 (PDF)

Shadowrun According To Blackjack Part 2 (PDF)


Cheers!
Mantis
Thanks for posting these. I like the PDF format so now I can have the resources forever. Yay!
Dread Moores
I mentioned this to Raygun over on Animalball. He was amused to see that folks are still out there using his material.
KarmaInferno
Tell him we've missed him.

But we're reloading.




-karma
Elfenlied
Is there a Version for SR4?
10gauge
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 1 2010, 08:39 AM) *
Is there a Version for SR4?


Nope. Since SR4 has a very... well... basic weapon system, it wouldn't make any sense to convert it to SR4. That's my opinion.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Jun 1 2010, 12:45 AM) *
I mentioned this to Raygun over on Animalball. He was amused to see that folks are still out there using his material.


What? Tell him that since noone plays Pheonix Command anymore he's basically the only non-retarded firearms RPG person out there.
10gauge
He should be gifted with a 50 feet high statue made of marble and chrome! smile.gif
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 3 2010, 12:29 AM) *
What? Tell him that since noone plays Pheonix Command anymore he's basically the only non-retarded firearms RPG person out there.

-- If you don't mind reading GURPS material I would recommend anything written by Hans-Christian Vortisch. I particular, the upcoming GURPS Tactical Shooting should be useful.

-- I haven't looked at how to convert GURPS damage to Shadowrun, Fourth Edition but I did create some guidelines for 3e.
Dread Moores
Well holy crap. That's a name I haven't seen for a long, long time.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 2 2010, 07:29 PM) *
What? Tell him that since noone plays Pheonix Command anymore he's basically the only non-retarded firearms RPG person out there.

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 8 2010, 01:36 AM) *
-- If you don't mind reading GURPS material I would recommend anything written by Hans-Christian Vortisch. I particular, the upcoming GURPS Tactical Shooting should be useful.


In general, Ronin is right, but I have to second Tzeentch about HCV. If there is a SR5, whoever produces it could do a LOT worse than hiring Hans to write the gun/gear core book.
Tzeentch
Shadowrun 4e firearms are dealt with at an extremely low resolution (World of Darkness arguably has less abstraction). Spud's FCG or Diamant's GPL could probably be cut down a lot from their 3e forms (especially if you want to assume that by 2060+ people finally adopted new calibers). It's a pity Arsenal just gave a bunch of weapon stats (many of which differ only in magazine size and cost) without discussing firearms technology in general -- contrast that with the intro section on Vehicles. Missed opportunity.
Wounded Ronin
I did a Google search for "reverse ogive" trying to learn more about that particular type of bullet, and the Raygun site was like the third hit to come up.

http://10gauge.de/raygun/ammo/special/rothv.html

Hell yeah! No one on the internet knows anything about reverse ogive bullets except for Raygun!
Wounded Ronin
Okay, another thought, au sujet de Raygun's firearms.

I notice that Raygun assigns most combat handguns a damage code of M, and he also assigns a damage code of M to 5.56 NATO. Crazy gonzo bigass hunting handguns in .454 casull just have more Power but the same M damage code; apparently the only handgun worthy of the S damage code is .50 AE. Besides for that, the only other way to start getting into S damage code territory is to use a .30 rifle cartridge. As written rifles in 5.56 NATO usually have a damage code of 9M, whereas .454 casull-type gonzo handguns are more like 12 M. For comparison 7.62 NATO rifles usually have damage codes of 9S.

When I considered this, I wondered if 5.56 NATO should have a "better" damage code than, say, .45 casull or .50 AE. 5.56 has historically gotten bad press due to poor stopping power but at the same time I would think that it would have better penetration capabilities than .50 AE or .454 casull.

How go crazy gonzo bigass hunting handguns compare in power to a 5.56 NATO rifle in real life? Should they have more Power than 5.56 NATO in a role playing game?
Daylen
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 13 2010, 03:53 PM) *
I did a Google search for "reverse ogive" trying to learn more about that particular type of bullet, and the Raygun site was like the third hit to come up.

http://10gauge.de/raygun/ammo/special/rothv.html

Hell yeah! No one on the internet knows anything about reverse ogive bullets except for Raygun!


that's because that design is not very useful in firearms for a plethora of reasons.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 13 2010, 08:05 AM) *
Okay, another thought, au sujet de Raygun's firearms.

I notice that Raygun assigns most combat handguns a damage code of M, and he also assigns a damage code of M to 5.56 NATO. Crazy gonzo bigass hunting handguns in .454 casull just have more Power but the same M damage code; apparently the only handgun worthy of the S damage code is .50 AE. Besides for that, the only other way to start getting into S damage code territory is to use a .30 rifle cartridge. As written rifles in 5.56 NATO usually have a damage code of 9M, whereas .454 casull-type gonzo handguns are more like 12 M. For comparison 7.62 NATO rifles usually have damage codes of 9S.

When I considered this, I wondered if 5.56 NATO should have a "better" damage code than, say, .45 casull or .50 AE. 5.56 has historically gotten bad press due to poor stopping power but at the same time I would think that it would have better penetration capabilities than .50 AE or .454 casull.

How go crazy gonzo bigass hunting handguns compare in power to a 5.56 NATO rifle in real life? Should they have more Power than 5.56 NATO in a role playing game?


Yes, Raygun's damage codes are heavily opinionated. For example, the several different rounds do different amounts of damage depending on whether they're used in a hold-out, light pistol, or heavy pistol.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 13 2010, 04:49 PM) *
Yes, Raygun's damage codes are heavily opinionated. For example, the several different rounds do different amounts of damage depending on whether they're used in a hold-out, light pistol, or heavy pistol.

Raygun is correct in this example, since you are talking about the same round fired from different length barrels. Up to a certain point, more barrel means more velocity, which means more damage.
EKBT81
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 13 2010, 05:05 PM) *
Okay, another thought, au sujet de Raygun's firearms.

I notice that Raygun assigns most combat handguns a damage code of M, and he also assigns a damage code of M to 5.56 NATO. Crazy gonzo bigass hunting handguns in .454 casull just have more Power but the same M damage code; apparently the only handgun worthy of the S damage code is .50 AE. Besides for that, the only other way to start getting into S damage code territory is to use a .30 rifle cartridge. As written rifles in 5.56 NATO usually have a damage code of 9M, whereas .454 casull-type gonzo handguns are more like 12 M. For comparison 7.62 NATO rifles usually have damage codes of 9S.

When I considered this, I wondered if 5.56 NATO should have a "better" damage code than, say, .45 casull or .50 AE. 5.56 has historically gotten bad press due to poor stopping power but at the same time I would think that it would have better penetration capabilities than .50 AE or .454 casull.

How go crazy gonzo bigass hunting handguns compare in power to a 5.56 NATO rifle in real life? Should they have more Power than 5.56 NATO in a role playing game?


IIRC Raygun partly adressed that by ascribing an Armor modifier (-25%) to rifle calibers.

Althoug I guess the relatively low power of the assault rifle is a consequence of SR3's autofire rules, where the power level increases with each bullet.

QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 13 2010, 10:49 PM) *
Yes, Raygun's damage codes are heavily opinionated. For example, the several different rounds do different amounts of damage depending on whether they're used in a hold-out, light pistol, or heavy pistol.


Well, I kinda understand his reasoning there. The same cartridge in a shorter barrel will have less velocity. Although one could question whether the difference is big enough to justify different game stats. It probably depends on the specific guns you're comparing. A 4" .45 ACP and a 5" .45 ACP will differ much less than a 2" .357 Magnum and a 6" .357 Magnum.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Daylen @ Jun 13 2010, 11:55 AM) *
that's because that design is not very useful in firearms for a plethora of reasons.

The two biggest I can think of are they don't load well in most self-loading firearms, and are probably too expensive for the benefit, compared to Jacketed Hollowpoints and FMJs.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (EKBT81 @ Jun 13 2010, 02:23 PM) *
Well, I kinda understand his reasoning there. The same cartridge in a shorter barrel will have less velocity. Although one could question whether the difference is big enough to justify different game stats. It probably depends on the specific guns you're comparing. A 4" .45 ACP and a 5" .45 ACP will differ much less than a 2" .357 Magnum and a 6" .357 Magnum.


Assuming you're talking about revolvers in both situations, the difference will be less than 2% (it would be around 4% in an recoil operated semi-auto, or ~5% in a gas operated or locked breach weapon). Not to mention the fact that damage doesn't change when using the Desert Eagle's longer 10" barrel (the difference between 10" and 6" is just as great for the .44 magnum as it is from 2" to 6" on the .357).
Daylen
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Jun 13 2010, 09:30 PM) *
The two biggest I can think of are they don't load well in most self-loading firearms, and are probably too expensive for the benefit, compared to Jacketed Hollowpoints and FMJs.


most bullets are expensive compared to FMJs. JHP can be dang expensive but is not armor piercing, the best it gets for that is bonded so it doesn't fly apart when it hits an obstruction. Brass, steel etc jackets can be ok as well for ap rounds. But for those serious about penetrating armor tungsten or uranium cores are the way. A nice extra is an explosive tip to open up the target a little and open up the bullet some to help release the tungsten penetrator.

In addition to being difficult to load the reverse ogive shape is still not ideal. I seem to remember that a modified secant shape is ideal, which a standard bullet shape is fairly close to. I think I'm getting a bit off topic though so I'll shut up now.
Voran
Great stuff, was wondering what happened to Raygun. Haven't been around here myself for ...wow..looks like 2 years? Recently started going through my SR stuff again and when I loaded up my old bookmarked Raygun site...horrors...it was gone.
Kruger
I'm not sure what makes the .50AE worthy of the 9S damage code he assigned it. It's only slightly larger than your standard .44 Magnum. It certainly doesn't show the kind of grain weight or velocity difference that would suggest an increase of Damage Level like you see between assault rifles and sporting rifle calibers.

Not that Shadowrun damage codes ever really made sense, I guess. But if you were trying to make them make more sense, it seems that the .50AE got an unrealistic bump. I do like his much closer damage codes for the "light" pistols versus the "heavy" ones. I always figured the easiest way was to make the light pistols 6M just like the SMGs are since they fire the same rounds.
Neurosis
*downloads the PDF*

Sweet holy god, these firearms house rules are longer than the entire core rulebook!

This is truly ridiculous. And I am saying this as someone whose two favorite things are guns and Shadowrun.

How long was it in development?
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 11 2010, 07:37 PM) *
*downloads the PDF*

Sweet holy god, these firearms house rules are longer than the entire core rulebook!

This is truly ridiculous. And I am saying this as someone whose two favorite things are guns and Shadowrun.

How long was it in development?


Most RPGs cause me rage and emotional suffering because firearms are underpowered and not realistic enough. You need this amount of detail to start to have a deeply satisfying experience. The older I get the more I appreciate the discipline, skill, and power associated with the use of modern firearms, especially since I started practicing with a German longsword and shooting competitively at the same time.
Neurosis
Considering this is 390 pages, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I hope no one needs THIS level of detail to have fun.

In other news congratulations on being skilled with ancient and modern weapons. : )
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 12 2010, 02:23 PM) *
Considering this is 390 pages, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I hope no one needs THIS level of detail to have fun.

In other news congratulations on being skilled with ancient and modern weapons. : )


Ha ha, well, a lot of the pages are background info and tables, so the actual rules content is considerably smaller.

Thanks for the congratulations. By training in medieval weapons I hope to be better prepared for the post apocalypse, or getting sent back in time a la Ninja Turtles 3, whichever happens first. :O
Ed_209a
I have a lot of fun playing Shadowrun, but if you are interested in realistic, detailed, modern/near-future gunfighting, Shadowrun just isn't where you need to be.

Don't try to fix Shadowrun, Play GURPS.

I've been down that road, I really have. I would fix one thing, which would break another thing, and make me rebalance two other things. On and on this went, until one day I realised that every change I made to Shadowrun made it more like GURPS. I immediately stopped and relatively easily made a Shadowrun setting for GURPS.

I don't mean this as a general criticism of Shadowrun. Shadowrun is very good at presenting an action movie tone of play. It just doesn't do highly realistic, highly detailed action as well as GURPS does.
Wounded Ronin
GURPS is pretty hardcore. I haven't seen the most recent edition but I did buy some old edition and played some of the GURPS Conan solo adventures. They all pleased me greatly. Perhaps it is time to seek the current edition of GURPS.
Ed_209a
4th edition is really good. I think it would be rude to go on and on about another system on a Shadowrun board, but I invite you to start a thread on forums.sjgames.com. I am ed_209a there too.
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