Hi all,

I've recently picked up SR4 and my group are gonna give it a go come July. I'm Gm'ing it and so to begin with am going through character creation, to get to know the system a bit. I've come up with a couple of question which i havent been able to find answers for from Errata/F.A.Qs/current threads here, so hence this one....

Question 1; Weapon Foci

As the test character is a Gunslinger Adept, why is it that weapon foci have to be melee weapons? Was it a mechanical desgin desicion or narrative and would it break the game if I allowed players to take guns as weapon foci?

Question 2; Magic items in general

I'm still a little lost when it comes to magic items in SR. As my Adept wont be making use of Cyber & bioware, I can see credits becoming less empowering to him than other characters who will upgrade with new augmentations. So I had assumed magic items would provide the opportinity for 'new toys'....however beyond foci, I cant see any magic items.....do generic magic items exist in SR? One magic enchantment I've always liked in magic/tech settings is ammo clips that never run out of ammo....kinda simple but useful both in character and out of character (no need to keep track of ammo...)

Question 3; Firefight Martial Art

the Adept has taken Firefight, but there arent many manveours such characters can take, as most of them have melee in the rules text. Again, is that a purposeful deicision for rules balance, or narrative, and would it break the game if I allowed players to take them for ranged combat. Riposte is another instance where you need to parry or block, not particulally useful for Firefight MA, but the overall maneveour is nice and its a shame it cant be used.

Question 4; Splitting dice pools

This seems really harsh for dual wielders....is it a viable combat style within the mechanics?

Cheers

Kal

The answer to all of the above is yes. None of those things are a problem unless you're trying to build Neo or Cleric Preston with starting build points. Now, to be more specific...

1. Because Weapon Foci are items that interact with the astral on some level and ranged attacks don't work on the astral. If you want to get your guns melee reinforced and turn them into foci for the express purpose of pistol whipping people, that's likely doable, but don't expect to get any bonuses to your ranged attacks from doing so. From a game balance perspective, guns already beat the shit out of melee weapons unless you blow the points to get a truly absurd melee damage code, which is an extremely expensive proposition. For another thing, it's easier to get a high defense pool vs. melee than it is to get a high defense pool vs. gunfire. Finally, there's the simple fact that a smartlink adds the same dice pool bonus as a +2 Weapon Focus does, except a smartlink is dirt cheap. Melee weapons simply need the help weapon foci provide (especially the ability to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons) more than guns ever will.

2. Anything a mundane character can get with money, an Adept can get as well. Live it, love it, abuse it.

3. Wait, you want Riposte to help your bullets? Firefight is fine and again, guns don't really need much help. The style gives useful dodge bonuses so you don't just get wrecked when someone closes with you and it allows you to shoot them in the face at no penalty or risking an Interception. It's not amazing, but given the relatively small investment, it doesn't really have to be.

4. It's fine. Anyone can attempt to dual wield and ambidexterity is only 5 bps in this game, so it's not like it has to be amazing to justify the costs. Further, guns are already crazy dangerous in this game. Splitting dicepools and attacking with twice the guns per pass has ridiculous damage potential but it isn't very accurate, but it's balanced out somewhat by quickly applying negative modifiers to the defender's pool due to having to defend against multiple attacks in a single pass. Is it something you want to use against a prime runner? Not really. Is it something you want to use when you score a Surprise against a squad of mooks? Hell yes. Besides, you can also just use two single shot weapons like Ruger Warhawks and fire them one at a time and reap the benefit of a higher damage code if you really want to. Dual wielding isn't necessary, but it's a neat trick to have and it doesn't stop you from using guns in a more traditional manner if you really need the accuracy.

yay double post.

Hi and welcome, hope you and your group have fun.

This is AFAIK mostly a concern of game balance, but also has a large amount of fluff surrounding it. You'll hear a bit more on why in question 4.

No, 'magic items' don't really exist in SR beyond foci. There isn't anything like auto-replenishing ammo clips or flying carpets or anything else.

There is an adept metamagic that lets them enhance an item and make it work better, but that is about as close to a magic item you'll get. Consider taking an essence or two worth of bioware, it is in general cheaper to go that route than getting some advancements through adept powers. You could get +4 agility for .8 essence for example, as opposed to the 2 power points or so it would cost to get via the adept powers (more if you want to go over your natural maximum).

SR is a bit of a 'low magic' setting in some ways, especially in that mundanes won't have magic items.

The maneuvers were mostly designed as being close combat, and even firefight is specifically designed as a martial art that uses firearms in melee combat. In order to make use of some maneuvers with firefight, you could harden your pistols and pick up the club skill to use them as melee weapons when required for the sake of a maneuver.

There are some important things to remember here. First off is that your offensive pool will generally be much larger than the opponent's defenseive pool, because you get a stat (which is very easy to raise) and a skill, and a bunch of other bonuses like smartgun. Generally a defensive pool is half a dozen dice compared to the easily over a dozen that the attacker will have. It is also important to remember that each attack after the first gives the defender an additional -1 DP to defense, so it is a nice way of shaving down an opponent's defensive pool by firing very rapidly. So yeah, even at half DP, you'll generally be able to get a pair of hits on your opponent, and is totally viable.

Oh, it also lets you get around SS type weapons by having two of them and firing each once.

This answer is for after you play:

Yes. It really is THAT deadly.

As for magic items, as a GM you're free to make whatever you like.

Personally, I have made a couple magic items. The creation method I use is simple:
1) Take a regular, not complex item (high OR items wouldn't hold unique magic well n_n)
2) Give it properties of a spell, or allow it to grant a quality, etc.
3) Make it have either a extreme cost, or some sort of detriment.

As an example, I made "Nobunaga's Blade".

Description: This blade was the used by Akechi Mitsuhide to "assist" in Nobunaga's "suicide". The sword itself was forgotten by history until the time of the Awakening, when the spirit of the brutal warlord took residence in it.
Stats: Nodachi - Range 2, Damage (STR/2+4)P, AP -2
Special: The sword has a Force 3 Guardian spirit living inside of it. The sword may be used as a regular Nodachi at any time, however use of all special powers requires first succeeding in a Willpower + Willpower opposed test with this spirit. A success grants the wielder the powers of Energy Aura(fire), and the sword will function as a F3 weapon focus even in mundane hands, lasting for net hit minutes. If the user glitches on the test the spirit will possess the wielder and act according to his own wishes for net hit minutes, but his own wishes will always include self preservation and convincing him to help is not out of the question. A critical glitch will cause the spirit to Inhabit the wielder, this cannot be resisted but this effect can be downgraded with edge use. In addition, the blade must be bonded with karma like a weapon focus.


It was a fun blade. The street sam used it. Till it inhabitated him, but we all loved that. Made for a great follow up mission to stop the spirit before he caused too much damage, and to put the fallen character's soul to rest. Then they sold the blade, which I can't blame them for wanting to get far away from a cursed item.

Anyhow, my point is you CAN make them, but don't over use them and try to keep them balanced, like adding in consequences for use or making it so rare that if anyone knows they have it then Johnsons will be hiring other runners to get it. If anything I bet your adept will have no trouble dealing damage without a unique magic item to boost him.

As was said, you can make a gun a weapon focus if you want to pistol-whip some ghosts, but if you want to shoot a ghost, you'd have to make the bullet your weapon focus, and spending that much money and karma on a single shot is pretty dumb. Adepts can initiate to gain specific bonuses with objects and, furthermore, to negate penalties when using higher DV things like burst fire. Let the dude grow into his murder skills.

However, there is some advanced wizardry which can provide magics for bullets. An Initiated Magician can Anchor a spell to a specific object and set it to go off when certain conditions are met. He can only do this to a number of objects in relation to his Initiation grade, so we're not talking about some fresh faced runner pulling this trick, but, down the line, there is the potential to slap explosive magics onto a prepared bullet and have them go blooey when the bullet strikes its target. In the mean time, he ought to invest in an MGL-6 semi-automatic grenade pistol. It's easier to get past a protective ward.


Applying any MA bonuses to ranged weapons is a GM style choice. If you want kung-fu guns, then Woo it up. Just don't forget the doves flying in slow motion, and use your judgment to imagine how a maneuver would work when practicing with such weapons. If it's something a person could drill over and over, then why not let them do so for a conferred bonus.

Splitting Dice pools isn't as bad as it seems. No, smartlink and laser sight bonuses don't count, however all other bonuses are added to each pool after the split, including the specialization bonus. so a DP of 16 with a specialized smartgun gets turned into a dp of 8 and 8. Also, remember that the shooter only needs to score one hit over the defender to tag them. So instead of one shot with a DV of 8 -1AP, there are two shots with a DV of ~6.5 -1AP. The only advantage on the first case with the higher DV is against an armored target. And, in that case, it's best to take aim and call a shot for increased DV any way.


My best advice is to keep a starting character away from any hyper-damage overspecialization so that he can still advance as he grows. Otherwise it's the Hack'n'slash equivalent of starting with a level already in the teens. For a more well-rounded character, try out one of the excel spreadsheet character creation options here, and use the Karmagen method.

Wow, cheers for all the quick replies

I'll try and take everything on board - really looking foward to giving the game a spin

Btw, as to the grenade launcher, I had come up with this custom pistol for the Adept....

Colt Special ($3385)

Colt Government 2066 ($500)
Quick Draw Holster ($100)
Personalised Grip ($100)
Custom Look ($100)
Extended Clip ($500)
Spare Clip ($10)
EX Explosive Rounds (2x $200)
Undermounted ArmTech MGL-6 ($1500)
3 High Explosive Micro Grenades ($175)

I'm pretty sure that works within the rules???

Kal

PS Is it ok to post up item prices (aka game stats)?

Actually, Riposte is really good for Firefight. Let me break it down for you:

Take a character with Clubs, Pistols, Firefight 2, and Krav Maga 1. The bonuses from Krav and Fire negate your penalties for using ranged weapons in melee completely, leaving you with the +2 Dicepool from Point Blank range.

Now, for your maneuvers, take Watchful Guard (always useful), Two-Weapon Style, Riposte, and if you don't have Ambidexterity, take Off Hand Training (Clubs).

This is what combat will look like for your grammaton cler-- I mean, your gun adept. You go into melee, someone attacks you and misses, you shoot them.

When you attack, you do so claiming the ability to use a Total Parry with clubs (as per Two-Weapon Fighting), ensuring (just about) that you will not be hit back. When they attack you and miss, you shoot them in the face from Riposte.

I think the MGL-6 is at least as big as that colt, so that doesnt really work as the underbarrel weapon has to be smaller then the parent weapon.

I think the rules actually say 'same size' (I'm not wild about it, but you can't put a shotgun under an AR otherwise).

I probably wouldn't allow a pistol with a UBGL, personally, but that's a GM call.

It's not so hard to quick draw an MGL-6 anyway with the right skills, maneuvers and stats. Besides, it's not typical to need grenades in too much of a hurry and he'll want that smartlink + airburst combo to keep from having to wait for the next IP for the grenade to blow. Also by increasing the sensor rating on your smartgun to 6, you can completely negate scatter effects. Pretty good deal imo.

Oh, and the MGL-6 is the size of an SMG. +4 conceal.

I do SR3 but to add a reason, the generally accepted rule on weapon focus- yes magic weapons- going back to 1st ed is that it is empowered by the user. The momment the missle leaves the user's hands the magic flow is cut off, so a sword is an extention of the user's field but once it ;eaves her hands it's on it's own. "magic bullets" are also very tecvhnological and magic has to be worked deep into the item at creation. not easy to do though I suppose there are the mythical silver bullets that someone might try. This would be a major source of magical researcxh though more likely arrows would be enchanted before bullets. The zen of the Japanese bowman or English longbow and the western myths like Robin Hood or William Tell, the bow of Ulysses etc shows far into the psyche this image has lsipped, far more than an enchanted machine gun.

In 2070, folk heros can be everyone from Pat Boone and Wyatt Earp for gunslingers to Marvin Heemeyer for riggers.

Everyone's got their favorite stories.

I've never actually seen what counts as Sensor for airburst grenades. :/

I have. It for stuff launched from a Vehicle, like missiles on an aircraft.

I've been looking at giving a dude one of those fancy grenade-pistols from arsenal, enhanced with an airburst link and pilot upgrade, and replacing the smartgun's camera with a camera 6. Expensive, but it should cut down on scatter immensely.

I figured silver bullets wouldn't actually be magical, but rather that some entities simply have a Severe Allergy to certain metals like iron and silver. Likewise I figured Zen archery is just a combo of Heightened Concentration and Improved Ability.

No, that's my point. I know that missiles use their Sensor, but I've never seen that a smartgun has a Sensor rating, even though the book lists airburst as '-Sensor'.

Yes. Now go read what Pilot Upgrade does. It -just happens- to need a smartgun to be applied.

... it makes it count as a vehicle. Vehicles have Sensor. Smartgun systems, internal and external, come with Cameras and Laser rangefinders, and are device rating 3. Therefore.... the gun now has a sensor of 3.

I wasn't aware we were talking about a Pilot Upgraded gun. *I* wasn't; I was saying that, while I understand the concept of airburst grenades and scatter reduced by Sensor, I've never seen an actual connection of personal firearm airburst grenades and Sensor. Sensor is a vehicle stat. Everyone's so touchy.

Incidentally, the Pilot Upgrade explicitly gives guns Sensor of 1 (pistols) or 2 (longarms). My interpretation is that '-Sensor' does not apply to a grenade fired from a personal firearm. If you Pilot Upgrade that firearm, -Sensor only applies when it fires autonomously.