Two players want their PCs to share the same body. Here's the concept: PC A wants to be a piloting origin AI. PC B wants to be a possession base Free Spirit. They want to split the cost of a Type-O clone, cyber it up (naturally including stirrup interface and implanted commlink), and then PC A makes the implanted commlink his home node while PC B possesses the clone body. (Also, they really want to acquire an Otomo in game.)

Here's the question (besides the obvious would you allow it? why/why not?):

The players contend this biodrone-vessel entity should receive 5+ initiative passes: 3 for the AI + 2 for the Free Spirit (+ sustained increase reflexes spell on the spirit-side of the entity).

Thoughts?

(Side note: the original plan was to convince a third player to be a blind face with an uber-pet: they would have gone with the same bio-drone vessel concept, but in the form of a dog.)

There is absolutely no way I would allow 5 physical initiative passes. I'm not 100% on this, but I think spirits only receive extra IPs when in astral form, and AIs only in the Matrix. Plus, how are two minds going to control one body at the same time? Make them trade off.

Sounds like a lot of fun. I'd certainly allow this kind of experiment in my home game.

As for the 5 IP question. I wouldn't sweat it, you aren't really breaking the 4(5) IP limit since PC A is getting 3 IP and PC B is getting 2 IP, it just appears to an outside observer as if the Bio Drone has 5 IP. Without PC A or PC B it would get whatever a normal Bio Drone would get. Two players are making themselves a single, albeit hard, target which will penalize them equally. Whatever happens to the bio drone is something they both have to deal with.

Two characters can't pool their IPs, otherwise I'd just convince my group to make a half dozen riggers, and have them all jump into one drone to stack all their IPs into one massively fast drone.

The AI has 3 initiative passes on the matrix while the spirit has 2 on the physical. The "drone" would have "5" passes if three of them were matrix-only. Otherwise the two characters would get in each others' way.

It's no different than a hacker (3 passes) owning an agent (2 passes) and shooting a gun while the agent hacks about.

As Tanegar said, I don't see spirit IP bonuses adding to matrix actions, nor do I see AI bonuses adding to physical actions. I don't have books in front of me, and I don't remember how possession spirits IP bonuses work with augmented bodies.

Also, having the one body there would need to be a hierarchy of who was in control of what/when. However, from what you posted I suspect that the two characters would "coincidentally" always agree on a course of actions and things would generally be mutally beneficial. I don't know about you, but I just don't see the overall needs/desires/plans of an AI AND a Free Spirit meshing up so perfectly.

I see two players that aren't satisfied with munchkining up 1 character, but want to wonder-twin their munchkin ideas. Every game is different so I won't tell you how to run your game; however since you asked, if it were my game I'd not only say no, I'd probably make them buy me another beer to replace the one I ruined as I laughed and spit it all over the place.

Like everyone else here, it seems perfectly sane to allow each player their full allotment of IPs, so long as they're sticking within the limits of their plane of existence.

The Spirit could use its IPs in the Astral, or (fewer) in meatspace. The AI could use its IPs on the matrix, or (fewer) in meatspace.

But if they're both operating in meatspace, they're NOT operating the same body. They can take turns -- the Spirit can go inhabit something else while the AI runs the rigged clone body -- but only one will moves the man at a time.

This is not necessarily a problem: they can buy some cheap Drones for the AI to jump into, and craft some inhabitation vessels and/or pets for the Spirit to putter around in, in case they ever want to split up.

Otherwise, sounds like the set-up for an adorable sitcom about an unusual couple forced into unusual cohabitation.

"Clone Sweet Clone", -- N

I like the idea, but I don't think it would be as successful as they players might think.

As the others have said, the 5 IPs would be split for both characters, and that would really only work with 3 matrix actions from the AI and 2 physical from the spirit.

If I recall my magic + tech right, the spirit would be in control of the physical form completely, it would have priorety in any physical action, and the AI could only make the body move if it rigged it and the spirit ALLOWED it to act. Also, since technically all actions in an IP happen at the same time, any IP that the spirit does anything physical the AI would NOT. It could try but it would be in vain.

At best I could see it working like this:
IP1: Spirit acts physical, AI can use matrix
IP2: Spirit acts physical, AI can use matrix
IP3: Spirit out of IPs and does not act, if GM allows the AI could rig the body for 1 physical action, though the GM might say that so long as the spirit cannot act it cannot willingly submit to allowing it's vessel to be controlled by AI
IP4: neither has a forth IP, no action

This doesn't sound any better then two separate characters to me, other then the advantage to the AI of having a mobile and well defended home node, and the spirit can have the AI rig and protect the body when it's on the astral. Communication between the two could be difficult too as tech and magic don't mesh well, the other could have no idea what the other wants or is doing.

Cool concept though. I hope they do it.

Well a rigger that is 'jumped into' a drone uses his matrix Initiative for physical actions.

Which is why you could end up with a drone suddently going at 4 ip passes when the rigger jumps into it.
If said drone is a bioclone/drone. Would not the same thing be true?

Go Go Power Rangers? Or more "Our Powers Combined.."?

Mesh LOL

I would say the biggest reason would be that the when a spirit normally possess something being rigged the rigger loses control of most actions and only retains those that the spirit can't do because of a lack of DNI or whatnot. If the spirit isn't giving up it's control then the rigger shouldn't be able to do much in the meat. I while I don't have my rule books open at the moment, I should think relinquishing control of your "own body" would take at least SOME sort of action on the spirit's part, and thus, make the spirit lose an IP or at least part of one.

Just my 2

how did these two meet and come up with the idea in the first place? Oo

In a tavern, of course.

Now THAT'S something that should be required in their background, mostly just to see what they can come up with. These two entities exist in worlds that don't really intersect except on the physical plane. Heck, many AI's don't know there IS a physical world let alone an astral one, and that goes the same for spirits towards the matrix.

It's sort of like a fish and a bird trying to chat. The one fish has to stick his head out of the water and the bird needs to fly in place above it... but how did they know the other was there to talk too in the first place?

I'd love to hear the results of what they come up with.

I would allow that... but as many said: There are SOME problems.

1. They share a body and on the physical plane it should work like this: The spirit has the the "Main Control", but the AI can interrupt, hinder actions, movements... so basically can make it spaz out. Also the Spirit can "relax" and let the AI take over. The Spirit can get MAXIMUM 2 passes, the AI 3 (or maybe 4 with a nice GM and some houseruling), but of course this does not combine in the physical world... BUT i would allow the spirit to blast on the astral when the AI steers the body, or the AI to hack stuff when the spirit steers. (Maybe with a slight modifier for precision for Actions while in moving vehicle for the spirit on astral *g*)

2. They cannot talk on an "intuitive" level. The AI is not alive and as such cannot have a mindlink or communication magic... the AI has no DNI and cannot think words. So they have to talk to each other on the physical. (speakers, microphone, HUD) something like that.

But overall i find this idea funny and pretty fitting for this weird world. Maybe i will have an NPC in my game have a concept like that.

That analogy makes it far too easy for them. Afterall, there is alway waterfowl (such as ducks). I'm thinking its more like a fish talking to a grapefruit. One is an animal, another is a plant; two totally seperate worlds that don't interract. Yet, somehow they come together to form the newest Odd Couple. I'm fairly certain that Felix and Oscar would seem like identical twins when compared to this combo.

You do not -add-. You use the best thereof. Therein lies your problem. READ the rules for your extra passes! Most all of them say 'does not stack with other technological or magical enhancements to initiative' or something similiar.

Free spirit: 3 astral. 2 in the meatspace. AI: 3 on the internet. Stirrup: As jumped-rigger.

Classic.

So thanks for all the advice, everyone! To recap:

• The consensus seems to be 5 IPs are okay, but must be on separate "planes." I.E. Spirit uses powers and/or spells while AI "drives" or Spirit
  "drives" the body while AI operates on matrix or maybe rigs just an external mount or the like. In other words, it's really not 5 IPs, but maybe a good analogy is two runners ridding in the same vehicle. Only one can drive, but both still have actions.
• Spirit-AI coordination would be difficult at best. Image link is out. What about something like nanotattoos? Could the spirit control that to send messages to the AI?

How am I doing?

RE: how'd they come up with it. The concept started when a possession tradition mage directed a spirit to possess a pursuing drone and used it to turn on the pursing KE team and allow our heroes to escape. The successful tactic spawned a lot of high fives and led to this.

RE: character background. Great point. Much fleshing out still to be done, but the basic thought is they're both "children" of a recently killed SR team. The AI was an agent for a hacker. The spirit was an ally. Their "creators" were killed by enemy X and they've combined forces to try and relate to a world they don't really understand and because everything else they know was recently killed.

Not a bad background actually. A few details and it could work pretty well.

The communication is going to be the difficult thing. I suggest something outlandishly simple, but not necessarily concealed or private.

Just have them talk to themselves. The AI can talk via a small speaker on the drone, the spirit can speak normally I believe. Both should be able to hear so that would work fine.

The drawback is they can't talk without the possibility of someone overhearing it, but that seems like a cool and unusual character flaw, and could get them into fun stations ESPECIALLY since they don't understand the physical world too well.

Like...
They meet a fixer named "Smalls" and the fixer happens to be grossly overweight.
The AI might start talking to the spirit: "It is a strange abnormality to name oneself in direct contradiction to obvious realistic qualities. It should have named itself 'Bigs', 'Larges', 'Fats', or another synonym, however this appears to be a common oversight among metahumans.", right in front of the fixer, not understanding it's insulting him.

I'd highly recommend this communication setup and a negative quality like Uncouth, Incompetent Etiquette, Reality Impaired, or Real World Nativity just for the crazy situations it could cause.

on the communication subject some modification on the drone would enable them to change the frequency of their respective speeches out of normal hearing so as to talk in more privacy would only take two small mods to the voice and hearing for the drone body and a specilised speaker/mic setup only slightly more special then the one you would need to rig up anyway

Johnson "you are one strange fella talking to yourself like that"
High pitched sounds come out of the guys wrist mounted commlink
Johnson "what was that?"
Drone "dont worry my commlink was just laughing at you"

All I can think about is that movie All Of Me with Steve Martin and Lily Tomlin.

He's a analytical mathematical AI, she's a witty magical spirit. They fight crime!

Absolute win

Should that not be "They commit crime!"

The only thing you forgot were the proper tags:

[deep movie announcer voice]
He's a analytical mathematical AI, she's a witty magical spirit. They fight crime!
[/deep movie announcer voice]

A couple of thoughts just occurred to me.

1. Who's preparing the vessel? I assume they want the clone to be prepared, since preparation offers a hefty +6 to the spirit's possession roll. Preparation a living vessel is an Enchanting + Magic (vessel's Willpower, 1 day) extended test. Will the spirit and AI pay a magician for this service, or will the spirit attempt it itself? If the latter, it must first possess another (unprepared) vessel to prepare the clone body (unless you rule that the spirit can prepare the clone while possessing it).
2. There has been talk of the spirit going off and doing other things in astral space while the AI rigs the body. Do you plan to make the spirit make a new possession test every time it possesses the body? I would.
3. This is a question to the readers at large: in order to benefit from the +6 preparation modifier, does the vessel need to be prepared anew each time the spirit possesses the body? I can see both sides of this argument. I would set a regular interval at which the vessel must be re-prepared; every lunar month, perhaps. No need to screw the spirit's player over unnecessarily.

I would say that it would depend. Does the vessel change or not? If the Spirit is off an about and then returns to find the vessel modified, I'd say reprepare it. I can also see some timeline being instituted, but I don't have my books handy to give you a valid one.

I couldn't find anything about it in Street Magic. The section on vessel preparation (p.86), the entry for the Possession power (p.101), and the sidebar "Possession and Vessels" (p.102) don't say anything about a spirit that possesses a vessel, leaves for a period of time, and then repossesses it.

I heard one of the devs or freelancers saying it was permanent. It's what makes it so risky to be a servitor. A prepared vessel is not just prepared for one spirit, but all. Which could bring up an interesting situation for the duo.

Also... why would you need to prepare it. Since it has no real soul/will it can't resist. and even if it is chock-full of cyberware it is still just a living, natural thing you are possessing. Giving it a OR of 1.

Hm hm... just read it again (well, skimmed over the section)... and that seem to work. If we would count the clone as "unwilling" he would just lessen the attempt by its essence... which isn't really there with a stirrup and added crap; So -1. The spirit can just do it. With a DRONE it will be different of course.

It's a living thing, therefore it has a Willpower attribute, presumably the same as the person it was cloned from. No, it doesn't "resist" per se, but there's still a Threshold involved for the spirit's possession test.

For those curious, this is what they came up with. I'm pretty weak on Matrix rules so any help is greatly appreciated! (Also, decided not to prep vessel and will possess vs. "3" willpower.)

Tomax
Free Spirit 250BP
Mental/Physical attributes @ 2: 0 BP
Force 6 - 45 BP
Edge 6 - 45 BP
Powers-Regeneration, Realistic Form, Psychokinesis
Sorcery Skill Gropu 4 - 40 BP
Astral Combat 5 - 20 BP
Assensing 4- 16 BP
Uncouth +20 BP
Hung Out to Dry +10 BP
Vendetta +5BP
Improved Invisibilty
Levitate
Heal
Manabolt
Lightingbolt
Mob Mind

Xamot
AI 110 BP
Mental attributes @ 5: 160 BP
Rating 5
Edge 5 - 40 BP
Inherent Programs: Command, Encrypt, ECCM, Armor, Medic
Pilot Origin 10 BP
Born Rich 10 BP
Restricted Gear: Stirrup Interface 5 BP
Restricted Gear: Simsense Accelerator 5 BP
Restricted Gear: Response Enhancer
Uncouth +20 BP
Hung Out to Dry +10 BP
Vendetta +5BP
Skills: Perception 6 -24 BP
Gear - $299,000 - 60 BP
Home Node Lifestyle
Type O Full Body Clone
Cyberware:
Stirrup Interface 1
Commlink
Orientation System
Biomonitor
Cybereyes 2: Flare Comp, Low-light, Vision Mag
Cyberears 2: Increased Sensitivity, Dampner, Enhancement 2
Voice Modulator
Bioware:
Muscle Toner 2
Bone Density Augmentation 3
Programs:
Scan 6
Sniffer 5
Trace 5
Decrypt 5
Exploit 5
Spoof 5
Defuse 5
Analyze 6
Browse 6
Edit 6
Reality Filter 6
Autosofts:
Cascading 3
Expert Defense 3
Expert Offense 3
Homeground 4
Chaser 4
Covert Ops 4
Profession: Armorer 4
Trailblazer 4
Clearsight 4
Defense 4
Electronic Warfare 4
Maneuver Anthroform 4
Targeting: Pistols 4
Targeting: Longarms 4
Targeting: Heavy Weapons 4
Targeting: Gunnery 4
Ordinary Clothing

Final Vessel-Drone Stats: (Spirit/AI)
B 8
A 7
R 2/9
C 2/5
I 2/5
L 2/5
W 2/5
E 0.4

Personally, I feel that the Hung Out to Dry quality should require the character to purchase contacts at chargen, however, remember that the quality states that at some point, decided by the GM, all contacts, earned and purchased, go away until a specific plot point is resolved, with some or all contacts returning depending on how well the player did in resolving it.

Also, you forgot to include the host's strength, and the spirit's physical abilities add to the host's physical abilities (reaction increase for the stirrup interface on GM say so only), while it uses just it's own mental abilities (which are all 2's ). And you need to look at the sidebar on page 89 since born rich, HOTD, restricted gear and vendetta are not listed as regular qualities that are open to metasapients, and thus are completely up to GM approval. Personally, I'd only allow one of them to take HOTD, as it would be kind of absurd to hit them with the disappearing contact plot twice.

I'm not familiar with possession rules enough to tell how the sprit's power transfers to the host, but if the regeneration power gets passed to the biodrone, that's going to seriously mess up it's cyberware.

First thing, I would make them change the names. Just a personal pet peeve, you might not care, but shameless ripoffs like that just annoy the hell out of me.

Second thing, a spirit whose mental attributes are straight 2's is in a world of hurt right out of the gate. He's rolling a whopping FOUR (4) dice to resist drain, for one thing, and his spells are not low-drain. He's also basically helpless in any kind of social situation; better let the AI take over in negotiations.

You know, the think that surprised me the most, is that this (these) character(s) really wasn't (weren't) very munchkiny at all. For all the hate directed toward PC AIs & Free Spirits, (OK, Frank's been permabanned, but he's still hating on them elsewhere) they're just not very powerful starting characters. I don't see how a starting AI can compete with a hacker or how an starting free spirit can compete with a mage. I guess you get immortality, but I think any hacker/mage duo would end their lives pretty quickly. Am I missing something?