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tim
Does anyone know if the Synaptic booster in the core book can be gotten through use of the genetic heritage quality?
Saint Sithney
If a GM allows it.
Faraday
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jun 4 2010, 05:42 PM) *
If a GM is crazy enough to allow it.
Udoshi
Technically, why yes, i believe the wording does allow for it.

However, any same GM will be going 'ten bp for an 80k/rating implant!.... yeaaannnooooooooo.'
Yerameyahu
That particular Quality really shouldn't exist at all. smile.gif
The Jopp
I would say NO.

It allows for one free GENETIC MODIFICATION and Synaptic Booster is BIOWARE - Not Geneware.

For 10 points you get a 20% discount on all Transgenics and one Genetech modification for free.
Udoshi
Yes, Jopp, but there's a clause about geneware being able to replicate the effects of most bioware.
Yerameyahu
It should just be a discount, like the other discount-style Qualities. Luckily, a loophole that is completely up to GM approval is no loophole at all. smile.gif
Railgun
I'd allow it to discount the cost, but not remove it, and have the costs go towards the medication or procedures you'd need to survive having your synapses firing off like crazy while your brain is developing as a baby/child. Otherwise I could see you having problems with seizures and abnormal development along the way.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 5 2010, 07:02 AM) *
Yes, Jopp, but there's a clause about geneware being able to replicate the effects of most bioware.


Oh, page reference?
Udoshi
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jun 4 2010, 11:34 PM) *
Oh, page reference?


Augmentation 93: "Most of the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."
The Jopp
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 5 2010, 07:47 AM) *
Augmentation 93: "Most of the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."


This quote is on the other hand only available under "Animal Features" so I would rule that this only applies to (as they write) "imbue the subject with full animal-like senses or abilities"

Enhanced senses and things like a balance tail is what I would apply under that rule but not ALL bioware
Udoshi
Yes, exactly.

Going 'OH HEY! Free rating 3 synaptic booster for ten points' is retarded.
Faraday
QUOTE (Railgun @ Jun 4 2010, 11:11 PM) *
I'd allow it to discount the cost, but not remove it, and have the costs go towards the medication or procedures you'd need to survive having your synapses firing off like crazy while your brain is developing as a baby/child. Otherwise I could see you having problems with seizures and abnormal development along the way.

TLE-x, it's not just for grownups anymore. biggrin.gif
Oehler the Black
QUOTE (Railgun @ Jun 5 2010, 01:11 AM) *
...have the costs go towards the medication or procedures you'd need to survive having your synapses firing off like crazy while your brain is developing as a baby/child. Otherwise I could see you having problems with seizures and abnormal development along the way.

Could we refer to such abnormal neurological development as a byproduct of genetic technology as "Stark Syndrome?" grinbig.gif
last_of_the_great_mikeys
My 2 cents (and I'm a very liberal GM who like letting players, within the rules, get what they want so they all have fun):

I allow all the standard bioware to be available via this clause...up to the availability and rating limits. No alphaware (I believe it states that only standard can me genetically engineered)

In my games this does mean that you can get synaptic booster 2 for 10 bp (the equivelant of 50 000 nuyen). I have not experienced this to be more powerful than wired reflexes 2, though it is a tad harder to detect. I also include the caveat that to upgrade with actual bioware you have to remove the actual parts of the nervous system, have a regular spinal cord implanted then have the bioware upgrade done. Tres expensive!
Mx
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Jun 8 2010, 04:41 AM) *
In my games this does mean that you can get synaptic booster 2 for 10 bp (the equivelant of 50 000 nuyen).

I would really like to read the background the player wrote to explain that one.
Ofcource if i was GM:ng and someone had this on their charsheet i would be "okey you can have that, but your character is about 5 years old, see you in 2080:S" cyber.gif
hermit
QUOTE
I would really like to read the background the player wrote to explain that one.

Why, yet another of these "it escaped from the gene lab" characters, possibly, since genemods like this have only been around since the edition change, so unless the character is a 7 year old child ...
Lansdren
I must admit I cant get my head around the idea that you can get bioware as a genetic heritage. Ok I get the fluff of it I'm not just improving myself but my kids too.

But its a very iffy interpretation of the rules. I'm guessing there is no official word on this one?

Cardul
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jun 8 2010, 05:44 AM) *
I must admit I cant get my head around the idea that you can get bioware as a genetic heritage. Ok I get the fluff of it I'm not just improving myself but my kids too.

But its a very iffy interpretation of the rules. I'm guessing there is no official word on this one?



Honestly? I do not allow Genetic Heritage in my games, because genetech is so new. It is one of the few things
that I really, honestly and truly will not allow a player to take.
Traul
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jun 5 2010, 08:52 AM) *
This quote is on the other hand only available under "Animal Features" so I would rule that this only applies to (as they write) "imbue the subject with full animal-like senses or abilities"

Enhanced senses and things like a balance tail is what I would apply under that rule but not ALL bioware

According to this point of view, a Synaptic Booster 1 should be allowed: there are mundane critters with 2 IPs. Call it Cheetah reflexes instead of Synaptic booster 1, and you're good.
Traul
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Jun 8 2010, 04:41 AM) *
My 2 cents (and I'm a very liberal GM who like letting players, within the rules, get what they want so they all have fun):

I allow all the standard bioware to be available via this clause...up to the availability and rating limits. No alphaware (I believe it states that only standard can me genetically engineered)

In my games this does mean that you can get synaptic booster 2 for 10 bp (the equivelant of 50 000 nuyen). I have not experienced this to be more powerful than wired reflexes 2, though it is a tad harder to detect.

Try something along those lines:

Genetic heritage, Born rich, Biocompatibility, full maxed out cyberlimbs, and maybe Restricted gear for a pain editor.

You get maxed out attributes (even the mental ones with BP), insane armor, insane condition monitor, a few tricks in your limbs and you still have plenty of BP for skills. The typical sammy will have a hard time competing with that.

QUOTE
I also include the caveat that to upgrade with actual bioware you have to remove the actual parts of the nervous system, have a regular spinal cord implanted then have the bioware upgrade done. Tres expensive!

I thought there was a genetech process to get rid of genetic enhancements, but I can't find it. Was it SR3?
The Jopp
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 8 2010, 11:31 AM) *
According to this point of view, a Synaptic Booster 1 should be allowed: there are mundane critters with 2 IPs. Call it Cheetah reflexes instead of Synaptic booster, and you're good.


The problem is that it basically gives you a 30K discount for a cost of 10BP which amounts to 50K of the (usually) needed 80K for the implant - And I do not think that was the writers intent.

Also, they write under animal features:

QUOTE
Note that such physical alterations
do not automatically imbue the subject with animal-like
senses or abilities, remaining primarily cosmetic
. Full functionality
requires much more profound metabolic alterations. Most of
the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also
possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months).


In the end I think it is up to the GM but I would in that case restrict it to more thematic characters than every damn streetsam and combat adept who want improved initiative on the cheap.

I would also limit it to a rating 1 implant.
Zyerne
From the FAQ
QUOTE
Can I get bioware as genetech? If so, can I get it in different grades, and what is the Essence cost?

Sort of. Most of the functional changes available through bioware are available through the Animal Features transgenic alteration genetech for comparable Essence and nuyen costs (p.93, Augmentation); i.e., a transgenic digestive expansion would cost 0.5 Essence and 20,000.

The exact limitations of what is and what is not available are up to the gamemaster; as a rule of thumb for gamemasters out there: if it's in the animal kingdom already (echolocation, gecko thumbs, gills, etc.) it's probably fair game. More exotic implants like chemical glands for synthetic drugs, false front, and symbionts are a little more iffy; though anyone who's had children could at least make an argument for little parasites growing inside of you being completely natural.

Unlike bioware, however, genetech is not available in grades; therefore any transgenic alterations of this type will be based on the base Essence and nuyen cost of the bioware.

Yes, this does mean that a character with the Genetic Heritage quality can get a piece of bioware as a transgenic modification for "free" (i.e., no nuyen cost) with the gamemaster's approval; the character still has to pay BP for the quality and Essence for the bioware/transgenic modification.


I have a character with transgenic "suprathyroid" obtained through Genetic Heritage. Also took Restricted Gear to cover the availability. With a cost of 45k, the same as genewipe, I don't think that's stretching things particularly.

As a GM, I might allow synaptic 1, but I'd rule the character could never upgrade it or use any other form of IP booster except drugs.
hermit
QUOTE
though anyone who's had children could at least make an argument for little parasites growing inside of you being completely natural.

Bullshit. Children are not an inherited trait, but an implant, if you really want to get that technical. So no, no inherited symbiotes unless the symbiote somehow spawns into the embryo.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Zyerne @ Jun 8 2010, 02:57 PM) *
As a GM, I might allow synaptic 1, but I'd rule the character could never upgrade it or use any other form of IP booster except drugs.


I would actually go a bit further.

The "saving" of points (a mere 6BP) could be applied to the character having a -1 to social tests against unaugmented people - after all, he's got twice the reaction time as any kids he knew his whole life and he cannot understand why everyone is so slooow.

Someone being born with twice the reaction time or the ability to see the astral plane or talking to computers might have a slight problem talking to those different.

ESPECIALLY if they were BORN with it.

Must have been hell for a family with an overactive three year old who reacts twice as fast as his parents.

darthmord
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jun 8 2010, 09:58 AM) *
I would actually go a bit further.

The "saving" of points (a mere 6BP) could be applied to the character having a -1 to social tests against unaugmented people - after all, he's got twice the reaction time as any kids he knew his whole life and he cannot understand why everyone is so slooow.

Someone being born with twice the reaction time or the ability to see the astral plane or talking to computers might have a slight problem talking to those different.

ESPECIALLY if they were BORN with it.

Must have been hell for a family with an overactive three year old who reacts twice as fast as his parents.


Genetic Heritage means one or both of his/her parents have that augmentation / heritage as well. SO Speedy the Kid also has Speedy Parent(s).
Yerameyahu
It's not just saving 6BP, but 6 extra BP of cash (30k), which is what an separate entire positive Quality does. smile.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2010, 12:08 PM) *
It's not just saving 6BP, but 6 extra BP of cash (30k), which is what an separate entire positive Quality does. smile.gif


Exactly. That's the same reason I like using Genetic Heritage for Genetic Optimization. Great trick if you can take the magic/resonance reduction, only costs you a point more.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
I just ignore all that crap and worry about whether or not it will be fun. Of course my group is remarkably assclown free.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2010, 07:08 PM) *
It's not just saving 6BP, but 6 extra BP of cash (30k), which is what an separate entire positive Quality does. smile.gif


Or an "In Debt" negative quality at 30 points.
Yerameyahu
We all know that In Debt is actually a positive quality. biggrin.gif
General Pax
I would just limit it to a transgenic mod priced no higher than 50k or so. Problem solved.
Lansdren
I'm still not down with the interpretation that the Genetic Heritage can get you full cultured bioware. I still think it reads for the basic mods linked to the animal looks. We really need a errata / faq that gives a straight answer
Yerameyahu
I would remove the freebie entirely, because it's a 'discount' Quality.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 9 2010, 12:36 PM) *
We all know that In Debt is actually a positive quality. biggrin.gif


This of course would depends on if the GM choose the organization the character got the loan from.

Imagine your streetsam character waking up one morning with a splitting headache and his left leg from the knee down is gone and the stump bandaged. A small note is attached to the kneecap explaining that the monthly debt is paid - And the next time they take his right arm.

It is baad to borrow money from organ leggers...
Mordinvan
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jun 8 2010, 05:48 AM) *
I would also limit it to a rating 1 implant.


Just a point, is if it can be grown in a tank and sustained in a body, it likely can be encoded into the person DNA to begin with. There is no biological reason to limit it to rating 1.
Mordinvan
It was a 'hole' in noticed when I first read through augmentation, and I seem to remember asking Synner about it. Either way, I actually like the idea of someone with their bioware genetically encoded into their body. Should make detection a real pain.
Traul
Even implanted Bioware is a pain to detect, isn't it?
Faraday
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 10 2010, 09:19 AM) *
Even implanted Bioware is a pain to detect, isn't it?

Generally. Most of the time, you need invasive surgery to get a straight answer... Genetics wouldn't offer much better.
sabs
QUOTE (Faraday @ Jun 10 2010, 05:57 PM) *
Generally. Most of the time, you need invasive surgery to get a straight answer... Genetics wouldn't offer much better.


Would you not just need a blood sample and DNA testing?
We have baselines for DNA for most meta-humans.
Genetherapy is a known quantity.
If you know how to use genetheraty to modify for X, then you know how to look at the genesequences to look for X having been modified.

The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 8 2010, 04:38 AM) *
I would really like to read the background the player wrote to explain that one.
Ofcource if i was GM:ng and someone had this on their charsheet i would be "okey you can have that, but your character is about 5 years old, see you in 2080:S" cyber.gif



QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 8 2010, 05:08 AM) *
Why, yet another of these "it escaped from the gene lab" characters, possibly, since genemods like this have only been around since the edition change, so unless the character is a 7 year old child ...



>.> actually at 7-8 if it were an orc, thats teenager territory isn't it? Could do a real wiz ganger involvement bit with this too.
Glyph
The description of the quality says that the technology has been around for "well over three decades", so someone with that quality hardly has to be a toddler.

If someone tried to use ambiguous rules to munch out a character, I would just shoot it down. I hate this passive-aggressive bullshit that too many GMs seem to use. "Oh, well, I'll allow the quality, but I'll hit your character with a bunch of asinine penalties and single your character out for bad things to happen to him."
last_of_the_great_mikeys
It seems that certain rules offend people for different reasons. Genetic Heritage seems to be one. My suggestion is this: have fun!

Seriously, getting locked on to one detail will wreck everybody's fun. If you're the GM and don't like Genetic Heritage, okay. Let your players know. Make a house rule for it or ban it. Do not try and justify it because that will lead to hours of arguement. The rule is ambiguous and everyone knows it. Yes, some players will try to take advantage of that. You're the GM and have the ultimate power over the rules so just use it allready!

I had this issue with a different game (D&D 4) with a character race that bugs me. I simply banned it. People asked why and I said 'cause I don't like it and it wrecks my fun...because! That was why: because. After five minutes of repeating this in response to whatever was said they got it. It was never open for debate or question. It was The Rule. As I am a pretty liberal GM that allows most things (because they are fun) it became a running joke but it was accepted.
Mx
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 11 2010, 04:04 AM) *
The description of the quality says that the technology has been around for "well over three decades", so someone with that quality hardly has to be a toddler.

Having bioware as trangenetic geneware certainly hasnt.
Geneware in general has been around for 30+ years, put some stuff is much never then that. Adapsin for example was grand new in 2070.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 12 2010, 07:35 AM) *
Having bioware as trangenetic geneware certainly hasnt.
Geneware in general has been around for 30+ years, put some stuff is much never then that. Adapsin for example was grand new in 2070.


Right, slap in the escaped clone edge onto that however, and it becomes doable. Not 'RAW' but logically possible.
Faraday
QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 10 2010, 11:05 AM) *
Would you not just need a blood sample and DNA testing?
We have baselines for DNA for most meta-humans.
Genetherapy is a known quantity.
If you know how to use genetheraty to modify for X, then you know how to look at the genesequences to look for X having been modified.

Like I said, geneware *isn't* better than bioware.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Faraday @ Jun 12 2010, 03:49 PM) *
Like I said, geneware *isn't* better than bioware.


But it is certainly an option to look into... and there are a few things that even Bioware cannot do that are common place for Gene Therapy... Notice that you can have Gene Therapy to obtain most Biomods, but you cannot have Biomods that mimic what is available by Gene Therapy...

It all works in the end though...

Keep the Faith
Faraday
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 12 2010, 07:42 PM) *
But it is certainly an option to look into... and there are a few things that even Bioware cannot do that are common place for Gene Therapy... Notice that you can have Gene Therapy to obtain most Biomods, but you cannot have Biomods that mimic what is available by Gene Therapy...

It all works in the end though...

Keep the Faith
That's not the context of the post you quote. A more full post would've said "Geneware isn't better than bioware for avoiding detection."
Yerameyahu
Honestly, by the time you're talking blood tests and medical exams, it's not even 'detection' any more. At that point, you're nicked already, you're just trying to escape. smile.gif
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