Now I've seen a lot of data on where people always talk about how broken the Firearm Creation Guide is in regards to applying them to the Canon Weapons. I've been looking at it(most because my work on SCOS, a Shadowrun Campaign Suite) and I think I can manage some of the descrepencies in it with some decent IG reasoning.


I took the Ruger Thunderbolt last night, and rebuilt it using the Cannon Companion's FSG: here's the results:

Heavy Pistol[ruger thunderbolt]
Conceal 5 (4. 4[special])
10 Round Clip(2. 12 Rounds)
Semi-Automatic (1. BF)
9 Moderate Damage(1. 12 Serious
2.75 Kilos(1. 3.25)(3. 2.75)(4. 3.50)(5. 2.75)
Firearm Construction Units 2(1. 1)(4. .25)
Design Point Value 120(1. 220)(2. 224)(3. 234)(4. 374)(5. 389)

1. switch to BF(+95DP, -1 FCU, +.5 kilos)
2. Add 2 rounds to clip(+4 DP)
3. Lighter Alloy(+10DP -.50Kilo)
4. Apply Recoil Comp[Gas Vent III](+.75 Kilo, -.75 FCU, +140 DPV)
5. More lighter Alloys(15DP -.75 Kilo)

original frame cost = 600
Modification Costs = 1345
final price = 1945

now that looks like Ruger is being awful generous to Lone Star producing 2000 nuyen guns for them. However, lets say that since Ruger is a Large Corporation, they have access to cheaper materials, and automated factories. lets say that reduces the DPV Value by half. then your price ends up being 973 nuyen to produce, granting Ruger 27 in revenue. not bad.

To prove a point let's use the same assumptions for a Ares Predator III

Heavy Pistol [ ares predator III]
Conceal 5 [special conceal 4]
10 Round Clip(1. 15 Round Clip)
Semi-Automatic
9 Moderate Damage
2.75 Kilos (2. 3.0 Kilos)(3. 2.25Kilos)
Firearm Construction Units 2 (2. 1.5)
Design Point Value 120(1. 130)(2. 310)(3. 325)

1. Increase Clip(+10 DP +5 Rounds)
2. Add Smartgun Internal(+.25 Kilo, -.5 FCU, (1.5x frame cost) 180DP)
3. Weight Decrease(+15DP, -.75 Kilo)

original frame cost = 600
Modification Costs = 1025
final price = 1625

Wow! that's incredibly expensive for our good friend, and @ 650 nuyen, a runner is getting one Hell of a deal! Now if we assume that the frame costs half as much for a well maintained facility, then the smartgun also doesn't cost as much(90DP), the final price when you half the total cost of manufacture is 587.50 giving Ares a profit of 62

I haven't done any other mods, but I hope to find them all like this. I figure if you divide the cost of manufacture in half, and then multiply by 5, you arrive at the appropriate cost.

Anybody tried this or want to attempt? thoughts comments? Any help is appreciated, since I'm going to be building a gun mod/redesign program for SR3, and I need to come up with some good solutions to the "canon guns don't apply to the FCG rules."

I'd say divide by more than 2. Remember, the FCG rules aren't intended to work on anything mass-produced, and mass-production cuts costs by significantly more than half.

~J

I have no opinion nor care about the canon FCG, cause I simply don't use it, but I'm just gonna point that that if you haven't, you may want to take a look at spudman's FCG found on Raygun's site. Maybe you'll find it better and could build you app from that instead.

If he's trying to make a general-use Campaign Suite, building from Spudman's rules would be of no help whatsoever. If he's just trying to make something for himself, it sounds like it would still not be particularly great, as it doesn't sound like he uses the rules.

~J

I'm just glad I haven't seen anything that was terribly broken in terms of the rules of FCG in the Canon weapons, just way underpriced. maybe we should just not multiply by 5 the costs of the weapon from the manufacturer? I'm pretty sure the X5 is the costs of the parts if a gunsmith were to call Ares and say "I need the smartlink assembly for an Ares Predator III" or some such.


Anybody else have some good thoughts or wanna show me a broken gun I'd like to know if anyone else has had trouble with FCG in regards to canon Cannons


[edit] I'm building an application called (shadowrun covert operations suite) which I intend to build as a roleplayingmaster system for SR3. here is my inspiration the SCOS is listed in dumpshock projects Here I intend to make it SR3 Canon, maybe allow for some rule addendums to be made by users, but I also want a really flexible Weapon Creation platform, which FCG by itself needs some amendments. the SCOS gun lab basically will show how any canon weapon was built, and so I need to put things into the creation of the weapon that can be easily explained away with style.[/edit]

As the book says, those prices are more for limited edition/prototype weapons rather than mas-produced ones. This article from TSS has a good way of giving you a reasonable price on a gun you've designed.

As far as the price difference between weapons created with the CC rules and canon weapons is concerned, check this article.

Never used the firearm creation rules myself. But then I don't use any canon weapons either.

the Canon FCG is decent, just not when it applies to creating the weapons in the Canon material. however that link is awesome. thanks for the info, I might play with that a little.

Anyone tell me what guns are referred to in the article that was posted? I'm interested in what guns simply "cannot" be converted.

Have you ever tried maxing-out an assault rifle in that system? You can make assault rifles with the same power and concealability as Heavy Pistols (9M, Concealability 6), but with all three fire modes and 6-10 points of Recoil Comp...


I agree that the weapons made with it can be expencive, but compared to his cyberware the small-change he pays for an insanely powerful assault rifle (somewhere around 10k ?) is no object.

The Cannon Companion one ? I once minmaxed a Sport Rifle with it, and ended up with something like a 10 or 11S, burst-fire, fully-compensated, Conc 6+ monster.

I sort of kept looking at the system funny for a while afterwards.

I have Reverse Engineered all of the Canon Firearms, and the 80% Majority seem to be 30% to 60% too expensive. There are those certain weapons (the Fichetti Exlusive Action, Walther PB-120, and Ruger Thunderbolt, to name some examples), that are almost accurate with their list price. Some, are way under priced, like the Colt Water Carbine. The design system leaves out a lot of things that are part of the weapon as well... Second Barrel (Walther Palm), Polyresin Const. (Many pistols and SMGs), Interchangeable Ammo (Taurus Multi-6), and Increased Damage Potential (Barret M-121). None of these things can be done with the system, and they are the short list.

The system is flawed, but it is functional, and unless you care to design a whole new system (which is my intention for our games), Your pretty much stuck. So, unless it really drives you nuts, be happy that SR even has such a system, a lot of other RPG systems don't...

Ah Yes, done the math again. Here's the weapon:

Frame:
Assault Rifle

Mods:
Improved FCU 1
Increase power 1
Bulpup Config
Barrel Reduction
Recoil Compensation 2
Heay Barrel
Internal Smartgun-2
Shock Pads
Personalised Grip
Weight Decrease 8

The final stats are:
Conc 7, 30 Rnd. Clip, SA/BF/FA Modes, 9M Damage, 5.5 Weight, 4777.5 , 6RC

OK: It's heavy, but the Assault Rifle base weight is hevier on its own than any assault rifle. Actually: It's technically even with the AK98, but that has an underbarrel grenade launcher.

[edit] added weight decrease, but it's still quite heavy compared to the Ares Alpha which is somewhat larger, has a built-in grenade launcher, and is still lighter [/edit]

I see no problems with incorperating the weapons design system into a campaign suite, just make-sure the person using the suite has other ways to insert weapons to the program.