Can drones that are not rigger controlled use passive detection and manual gunnery? What about robots? Does a drone always have to use Sensor Locks to lock on against the signature before firing, or can it fire on a close range target simply by noticing it as normal (with appropriate modifiers based on light and all that) and fire away? Can a drone camera pick up people walking by it or does it need to first hit the TN6 to notice? I didn't think they could do that, but if drones require TN 6 to see someone right in front of them in a hallway that makes them much less scary...

JaronK

Not really. There is a list with sensory-enhanced gunnery modifiers which apply to the test. I don't have my book at hand, but it should reduce the tn to the 2-4 range at least.

No. Drones must always use active-sensor gunnery. Don't know about robots.




It must always achieve a sensor lock before directly attacking a target. It may however attack a LOCATION without a lock, and perhaps hit the target (by using launch weapons or suppressive fire, for instance). However, the drone will never do this without being specifically programmed to attack that particular area.




The TN is far lower than that. By virtue of having direct LOS, that's -4 (or there-abouts). There's another bonus for close location and somesuch. The TN should drop to about 2, which most drones will make about 80% of the time.

As I recall, you only get direct LOS when it's an air to ground attack or air to air attack. Plus you're inside a city.

JaronK

The rule says specifically "LOS stands for line of sight. This modifier applies if an uninterrupted line of sight exists between the vehicle's snesors and the target object." So no, neither item has to be in the air. Being in a city is irrelevant in this case, unless the OP meant 'what happens if someone walks right in front of a drone, which happens to be on the other side of a brick wall', but forgot that brick wall part.

Sig for an unmodified human is 6. From that we subtract -2 from LOS, to bring it down to 4. You might add +1 for urban setting, depending on whether the GM thinks it's relevant when the target is RIGHT IN FRONT of the drone, and thereby blocking out said urban setting. So your average, trashy drone has a 50% chance of locking onto you (GM fiat nonwithstanding). The drone should still 'see' you in the sense of knowing not to run over you, but it hasn't necessarily identified you as a squishy person to shoot at.

But yes, drones in SR3 are meant to be like big, stupid 80s drones. They take a lot of hits, and dish out a lot of damage, but aren't smart and are especially effective. Be happy. They're pretty deadly otherwise.

In an urban setting with direct LOS, the TN for a drone (without a rigger in it) both noticing and shooting a metahuman target is 5

Also, it says that while direct LOS is less likely in ground to ground, it is possible if the target is in 'clear, open terrain', i.e. not behind cover or anything like that.

That makes it doable, but not guaranteed. Also, if the target and the drone are far enough from buildings (as in, a cleared field of fire surrounding a corp compound), I'd remove the 'urban setting' modifier, allowing much easier TNs of 4 to spot, and 3 to shoot.

Of course, even then, unless the drones have decent pilot ratings, they aren't rolling too many dice - your stereotypical security drone has a pilot rating of 2, making the chance of hitting anything quite poor. I tend to give the drones of any serious corp sec a pilot rating of 4+ Without that, the TN hardly makes a difference, as so few dice are being rolled.

Robots would work much the same way, except they also get their adaptation pool - same TNs, but many more dice. Adding a BattleTach IVIS whatnot adds dice too, but that is rather expensive, like 25k per drone. Serious corp sec might be using that, but I've never actually used it.

The directive that drones only use sensor targeting turned up in Rigger 2 or 3 IIRC and as such should be considered optional like much of the bunkum in those books.
I allow drones (& bots) to use manual/optical targeting when it suits them. The sensor rules, though abstract, seem more appropriate to radar and IR.

From SR3 p153: "Direct LOS: The direct LOS modifier applies only if a clear, continous straight line can be traced between the gunner and the target, with nothing blocking the view. This generally occurs only in ground to air and air to ground attacks. For ground to ground attacks, this modifier applies only when the target is sitting in clear, open terrain." It goes on to say "Interrupted LOS: ...applies for most ground to ground attacks." So yeah, that's not going to apply inside a building for example (in the Archology is what I'm currently thinking about). Now that's in the gunnery section... the sensor section doesn't say that, but it does seem like a clarification. It seems from that that in the situation I'm thinking of (a drone in a hallway spots a target and starts shooting, while the target is not in cover) the drone basically has no chance. Base TN 6, roll a Sensor test (TN6, +1 Urban Setting, +2 Tight Terrain, total TN 9). With one success it can see where the target is but it doesn't know if it's a dragon, a metahuman, or a goat... but at least it can lock on. Of course, most drones have a pilot of 2-3, so it's very unlikely it will see the person in this situation even if they're obviously right there. If it does manage to see that there's someone there, it has to roll again to lock on, with the same TNs (very unlikely) and that will take a complex action. Finally it can start shooting if it got a success (still unlikely). Base TN 6, Urban Environment +2, for a total TN of 8. Chance of a hit: extremely small.

So yeah, that all seems quite poor, hence my initial question. If they can use manual gunnery and passive detection then the runner in a hallway isn't quite so impossible to shoot.

JaronK

Manual Targetting says its used by characters when firing ... <first sentence of SR3 p.151>
Sensor Enhanced Targeting "is used by drones." <p.152 SR3>

I've always ran that drones can only use sensor enhanced/indirect fire and that R3 just clarifies what the core was trying to say. We did house rule that robots can use manual as they operate on their own initiative anyway.

Some of these are a bit wonky so I try and streamline it somewhat so things don't get lost in the details.

Okay, so it sounds to me like...

Yes, a drone MUST use sensor-enhanced gunnery (SR3 p.151).
When acquiring a lock, the drone uses the LOS rules described in the 'sensors' question (and using its sensor rating, usually 1 die), and will determine the target is an organic of an approximate size, but nothing more.
When firing the weapon, the drone uses the LOS rules described on p.153, the gunnery section, and so is less likely to apply. The drone rolls pilot + sensor/2, I believe, so it's still only 1 or 2 dice.

However, drones still stage damage down by a huge amount when hit, and can still mount awfully big weapons without worrying so much about recoil. So they're sort of like Mr. Magoo with an HMG.

All of this makes the drones in the Archology rather unimpressive. The players could put on Thermal Dampening armor and do a jig in there, and even with the most basic amount of cover they're invisible.

JaronK

Not so much. There are some weird things about drones. For instance, it doesn't get harder for them to see you because you're behind soft cover, or its dark, or whatever. The arc drones also have very high sensor and pilot ratings. Also, you never know when someone a bit smarter has dropped into that drone, and so there are a lot more dice flying. Finally, yes, one-on-one, an arc drone isn't precisely terrifying. But you're not fighting them one-on-one. Even if they only have a 25% chance of seeing you, they get to try again... and again... and again. And eventually, they will see you. And they will call in their buddies. And then you had better be very fast or very lucky, otherwise you will be very dead, because while the drones aren't the best at spotting intruders, they are awfully good at ignoring damage, and very effective at filling a narrow hallway with lead.

5 drones with HMG doing Wide Burst FULl Auto with 0 recoil in a 6' wide hallway, with no place to duck.

That's just not pleasant.

Also, what makes you think that Drones don't have regular cameras and facial recognition software?
Or RFID sensors. If you show up on camera, they scan you for an auherized Aztechnology RFID. You don't have one, say hello to mister Lead.

Cameras still need to make the check. However, you could have it be as simple as an on-board motion detector or somesuch. For whatever reason, these pieces of tech are hugely impressive when mounted on the wall, but not so much when part of a greater sensor suite.

And yes, the RFID chip bit (or vocal recognition, or whatever) is a good idea, and I believe is covered in the Corporate Security handbook. It really doesn't take too much creative thinking to sidestep the limitations of drones.

(Or, you know, just have a rigger there.)

A couple drones can quickly and easily eat away someones combat pool. After that better hope you can soak the rest of them. In many cases swarms are great for swarming. Otherwise a jumped in rigger is great for those 1 on 1 moments.

Keep in mind you can add autosofts as well.

Clearsight can be extremely helpful on those sensor test, basically doubling your pilot skill if you buy it that way.
Sharpshooter will allow the drone to be more effective by doubling its gunnery skill.

Just pay attention to what softs you want as drones are limited to number of softs skill based on pilot.

Other ways of making drones more effective, indirect fire rules, Ivis system and small unit tactics bonus.

Really drones / vehicles are very easy to kill with big/properly selected weapons, their low body means they have no chance to lower the damage more than 1 level. Their armor on the other hand prevents anything less than those weapons from doing much against them.

If they can't see you they're not going to be firing at all, so those 5 drones with HMGs are just loot for the party to take (and yes, the party has riggers. Two of them). After all, even something as simple as a Thermal Dampening 4 Longcoat puts the TN to see you at a rediculous 13. 5 of them with an average of 2-3 dice per? If they're lucky one of them might notice that you could be a rat down the hallway. Just walk up, make a B/R test to open them up, and take the drone offline. This is before going full out with the normal stealth gear our team uses (Thermal Dampening 8 on a Longcoat and FFFBA, Concealment from a Force 5 spirit, which would bring the TN to 22 just to see them).



They likely do. In fact, we know they have normal cameras. But they still can't see you, even with those... that's what I was asking about. Passive scanning with a standard camera would solve this, but evidently drones can't do that.



Right, but evidently they can't notice you showing up on a camera, because they still have to make that sensor test. So, RFID scanners don't matter much. In fact, having everyone permanently transmitting RFID makes things worse, since the players can now track RFID signals and know where everyone is (if they turn one off, they evidently "say hello to mister Lead.").

Even the archology drones with their 8 sensor dice have trouble with a standard person at TN 9, since they average 1 success per 12 dice rolled. They'll never know the difference between a rat and a dragon, let alone a human that should be there and one that shouldn't. A little thermal dampening to raise the sensor test and you could do a jig in front of them safely.

JaronK

@JaronK

Your right you can find ways to hide from drones, but I'm not sure that the long coat works. Feel free to clarify as my understanding differs. I'm also lacking my copy of cannon companion so I can't confirm that. My thoughts are that some drones don't even use thermal to detect people, and even if they did, they also use radar, ultrasound, etc... which would all bypass the thermographic issue.

Drones perception is Pilot + clearsoft + 1/2 sensors (using alt sensor rules from R3 p. 82)
So drones can have 3-15 dice (1 pilot, 1clearsoft,1sensor) or (5pilot,5clearsoft,5(10/2)sensor)
Default off the shelf drones will probably come in around 4-6 dice which is no worse than your average security guard, with the exception that its using sensors. Typically a rigger will throw in at least 1 drone with high sensors and pilot to locate targets for the other drones. I usually use a blimp in this case but any drone will do.

You are certainly right that a spirit using concealment will add its force to the TN to detect, but this will affect mundanes as much as a drone.

In the extreme example given of an open hallway with drones on either side. My understanding is that the TN would be base 11(sig 6 +5 from your spirits conceal). Then -2 for direct LOS, so a total of TN 9. feel free to correct me if the lined coat does indeed factor into this.

5 drones, average of 4-6 dice each, 20-30 dice to get a single TN 9. I'd bet on the drones detecting this intruder, just enjoy your 1 pass of no bullets coming your way.

There are other ways to increase the dice pool of the drones, using robot brains and modifications, but they really aren't cost effective unless its a single drone, clear sight is a must have for all combat oriented drones along with sharpshooter.

Thermal Dampening specifically raises signature by its rating. It maxes out at 8, but goes down by 1 point per hour you wear it, and takes an hour per point while it's not worn to cool back off again. However, nothing stops you from having two such coats and swapping. So if drones can only detect by targeting signatures, Thermal Dampening is basically invisibility, permanently, and cheap. A special kind of camoflague designed for sensors can raise this by another point, putting a character at a blanket +9 signature... base 15 here. Combined with being in tight terrain (such as being indoors, +2) and you're basically impossible to see.



My players will happily steal such overpirced drones. A Rating 5 Pilot Rating 5 Clearsoft Rating 10 Sensor drone is insanely expensive, and Rating 10 sensors themselves are ridiculous (and require something huge just to mount them... security drones simply lack the CF). If that's what's needed to challenge them, there's a serious problem.



They don't even have Autosofts, and usually have a Pilot of around 2-3 with a sensor value around the same. So... 2-3 dice, not 4-6.



Except the average guard has a base TN of 4 to the drone's 8 in a building. That's huge.



Again, the coat factors in, and Direct LOS is only when nothing else is around at all. In a building, Direct LOS never applies for drones. So even without the spirits it's 9 (you forgot the +1 for an Urban Environment). With the coat it's 13. With the coat and F5 concealment it's 18.



5 Drones that are actually average would have 2-3 dice each, so 10-15 dice to get an 18... but that's not enough to even recognize that you're not a cat. You need two successes just to see that it's a metahuman. So you need two 18s on 2-3 dice for that, but you get 5 chances. Yeah, it's not happening. The runner might as well take a nap. And remember, even if the drones do know you're a threat, each one must lock on individually unless you put the rather expensive battletac system into each of them... making them that more valuable. If I was ever running against your Rating 4 drones with Rating 4 Autosofts and Battletac and all that, I'd be stealing the drones instead of the main loot. They cost more. In fact, I've done exactly that (levitate vs drones is hilarious if they're not fliers).

JaronK

Thermal dampening requires a full body covering armor. Get a helmet with that coat and you're fine. Otherwise prepare for some drones aiming MG's at your head!

See I don't get this.
THermal Dampening should have no effect if the drone isn't using Thermal Sensors.
Of course, you are talking about SR3, and not 4. So I'd have to dig around in my head to see if I can remember how the sensors work on sr3 drones. It just.. seems incredibly silly.

And for example, that Thermal Coating would have 0 effect on a guard.

This is a point where 'the rules are stupid'

Thermal sensors are part of the default sensor suite at rating 1. However, Jaron's idea of swapping coats doesn't exactly work because while the last coat is venting, it'll be hotter than before, so would logically add a penalty to your TNs to not be seen (unless your GM is toturi).

I doubt it; broadcast encryption is effectively ironclad unless you throw a fair bit of karma pool at it. If you make the rating of the encryption commensurate with the rest of the drone, you can drop the "unless" clause as well.

Also note that the rating of a single modification is capped at the highest of Impact and Ballistic (CC p52); to get +9 to Signature from Thermal Dampening, you need to be packing Heavy Hardened Military-Grade Armor (but actually p53 caps the modifier at +8 anyway but you already noticed that). Your longcoat will "only" get you a +4, which is powerful but hardly foolproof.

~J

Unless you do something like put the venting armor in a miniblimp or doberman drone designed for the purpose, one that hangs back from the party. Heck, put in special machinery so you've got a refridgeration unit and a fan and it should cool even faster.

And you can steal drones by physically walking up while jamming them (remember, they can't see you), turning them off, and taking them. Or destroying them with non explosive attacks and taking the parts. You don't need to bother with encryption.

As for the Thermal Dampening rating, just wear a long coat and FFFBA. That allows for the full 8 points of Thermal Dampening. And yes, you'll need a nice high collared long coat and hat to go with it, but that's hardly a major issue. The +9 included one point of sensor camoflague.

JaronK

As a GM, I would strongly encourage my players to hide by dragging a balloon behind them everywhere they go which vents huge amounts of heat. I'm sure 'suppressive fire at the drone immediately behind you' won't turn out poorly for them.

(But a very ingenious idea.)

Heh, you don't put that drone anywhere near you. Meanwhile, it shouldn't put out "huge amounts of heat." The stuff is storing up body heat, that's all. There's less heat venting than a gasoline engine, that's for certain. Put this thing on a signature improved Miniblimp, keep it stored in hidden locations when you find them, through sensor camoflague on it, give it a little ECM if necessary... you should have no trouble keeping the signature rating at 9+. It's not like it needs guns or anything.

JaronK

Non-tiny drones tend to be pretty heavy, but point; I'd forgotten about the low-tech (relatively) approach.


Mm, I guess they completely failed to address the stacking issue; the "maximum modifier" clause could then be interpreted to be per-armor-piece, letting you get +9 from a longcoat (or underoos) and an armor jacket. Note that the sensor camo works only at night; it presumably uses some kind of shamanic magic, since the position of the sun matters but local lighting conditions don't.

This game, I swear.

~J

I think from looking this over that we're going to have to house rule that drones can use passive sensors like a human, just to avoid the situation where a wall camera can detect people easily but that same camera on a drone would be lucky to even notice that there's a life form. We're likely also going to say that robots can use manual gunnery rules when they want to.

I haven't really seen anything else I can do here... otherwise drones are a complete non threat and pathetically easy to counter.

JaronK