Please read this you examine the house rule: This house rule applies only to karma gen. By karma gen, I mean attributes cost 5*(new attribute) karma and races cost standard BP*2 karma. Except Orks and their metavariants, they cost BPx2+20 karma.



This rule is intended to emphasize and encourage average attributes instead of min-maxing at chargen. Works as follows:

Part 1: - This part of the rule is only effective during character creation. –

Human attributes (Minimum 1, maximum 6) are considered the baseline. (Edge notwithstanding)
Any race with a higher minimum in a given attribute can pay the same amount as a human to increase that attribute up to their minimum+2. For reference, the cost is 10 karma for minimum+1 and another 15 karma for minimum+2.
This applies to ALL races and ALL attributes. It also includes the edge attribute. It does NOT include Magic or Resonance.

Example: An ork has body minimum 4. He may start play with 6 Body for the same karma cost as a human would start with 3.

Part 2: -This part of the rule is effective both during and after character creation-

For races with attribute penalties (this means anyone with an attribute maximum lower than 6) improving an attribute beyond 1 costs additional karma compared to normal. Like part 1, this applies to all attributes and all races. This includes edge. UNLIKE the first part of the rule, part 2 applies to the Magic and Resonance attributes. This means essence loss is especially nasty for mages, adepts, and technomancers.

The cost increase is 5*(6-racial attribute maximum) karma and is added to standard karma cost every time the attribute is increased. This is intended to make “attribute penalties” actual penalties, instead of merely lowering given potential.

Example: A troll has a racial maximum logic of 4. This means that every point of logic he buys past 1 costs 10 extra karma. Buying 3 logic would cost him 45 karma (10+10 to get to 2 and 15+10 to get to 3).

Sounds logical.


I don't quite get what you mean. Do you mean each level of Magic or Resonance costs ((new rating + essence loss rounded up) * 5)?

Yes, as your max magic attribute is your essence + initiation level - assorted essence loss. It's meant to discourage cybering up mages and adepts. I never felt there was enough of a crunch reason to avoid cyber/bioware as an awakened character, most of the time. I am unsure whether to include resonance, since I rarely see technos getting implants, at least in the beginning.

I would include Resonance for flavor reasons alone. It doesn't hurt technos nearly as much as it hurts mages, anyway. They almost never get implants, period.

For the record, I love this rule. I'm incorporating it into my personal houserule document ASAP.

What do you think on using the rule for essence, Tyro? I know you approved of it on standard attributes.

Also, realized this makes addiction dangerous for anyone who cares about essence.

How does addiction enter into it?

I have mixed feelings about the Essence penalty, mostly because I use (Force + Modifiers) for overcast drain instead of (F/2 + Modifiers). Overall I like it, but with some mental reservation.

[Edit:] I just realized the Essence rule also penalizes the Infected. Also, most Ghouls are going to have 1 CHA now. You might want to increase the cost of Infected templates due to seriously high average attributes and severe attribute penalties.

REALLY bad addictions lower your essence.

I understand you'd have reservations, but I would ask: how many bioadepts and mages with cybereyes have you seen on this board?
The penalty does affect infected, but it also gives them some pretty nice bennies thanks to their sweet racial bonuses, it evens out. More infected characters will be going the cyber route. Also, most ghouls already have 1 charisma anyway.

In general, I wouldn't allow most infected in the first place. I would look at costs when it comes up though.

This seems ok, however once our group moved to Karmagen we found much of the min-maxing was resolved. We have much broaded skillbases for characters with nowhere near as much specialization. OK there are 2 specialized guys but by being specialized, they ran out of points very quickly and are very narrowly focused.

Your first rule fits you stated intent of average attributes, but does not remove min-maxing, it simply changes its face. It makes average attributes the min-maxing standard, in this case.

Your second doesn't on either intent. The best min-max strategy would be not to increase the penalised attribute at all leaving the character at Attribute 1.

I suppose if you put it that way, it does turn min-maxing into "min-averaging".

On the second point, generally you want at least a 2 in most attributes, otherwise you invite big problems when you try defaulting those (and it happens). That said, it does encourage a score of 1, maybe 2 at best for races with penalties. However, races with said penalties, on average, are going to have those scores. When I said "averaging", I meant relative to the rest of their races, not necessarily at "3".

No, not really. It'll just further distance the min and the max. Your orcs are going to have Logic 1, all the time (to costly to raise) and Strength/Body near max, because the first two ranks are cheaper.

How about 5BP/rating*3 for attributes up to 3+racial mods, 10BP/rating*5 for attributes beyond that?

This is explicitly a Karmagen-only houserule. Or do you mean Karma, not BP?

What do you mean here with regards to Magic and Essence loss? As I understand it, by RAW, if you have, say, 1 point of essence loss, and you want a Magic of 2, you have to pay (in Karmagen), 15 karma (Magic 1 for free, 15 points for Magic to 3 which then loses 1 point for an effective 2). Your formula says to take Magic from 1 to 2 would cost... 10 karma? (5*1 + 5*(6-5))? That's less? Or do you mean I pay twice? So I have to buy magic to 3 at a cost of 25 karma for an effective 2?

BTW, as someone who makes mages with essence loss all the time, I'd say if you want to discourage the practice even further, make essence loss also remove drain dice (i.e. drain soak becomes casting stat + willpower - essence lost).

As for the rest, I think you'd be better off with a formula something like ((current - race mod) + (current - race mod) / 2) * 5. I would have characterized this not as min-averaged or anti-min-maxed, but rather commonality adjusted (or weighted if you prefer). I.e. more common racial stat range/distribution is encouraged. Personally, I think Karmagen accomplishes this well enough. If you are going to use such a formula you should have it carry through to post-creation karma expenditures as well, imo.

If you wanted to encourage people from making characters with effective 0s (or less) in an attribute, you could modify the glitch rules. Rather then only counting 1s for glitches, you could count 1-2+effective attribute value for all skill tests of skills linked to attributes which are effectively sub-1. I.e. your troll has Logic -1. You don't buy any logic, default to 1, giving you a theoretical 0 (but still a 1). Now all your logic-linked skill tests on your troll count 1s and 2s as glitch dice for purposes of determining glitches and crit glitches (1 to (2+effective attribute value which was 0 in this example). Default a stat with a -2 modifier, now 1-3s count as glitch dice. etc.

Edit: math error

My suggestion would be a change to both systems. I like simple rules, but have to ponder the consequences of this one myself.

Thats how it works in stardart chargen, if you want magic of 2 and have 1 points of essence worth of ware you have to buy magic 3 costing 25(10+15) point of karma.
His house his house rule would change that to 35 points of karma [(10+5)+(15+5)], but that rule doesn't really make sense with magic/resonance in chargen where you allready have to first buy the stat up and then lower it by essence loss. After chargen it makes more sense.

Mm.. isn't it current rating X 5? So magic 3 would cost 15 karma... 5 for the 2 and 10 for the 3, which would then be lowered to an effective 2 by the essence loss.

Say you have a penalty of -1. Your average is still be 3, in fact, this is the average considering that a normal 1-6 range has an average of 3-4 instead of just 3. Relative to the rest of the race, your house rule encourages keeping the attribute at 1.

You have to consider where the karma saved is going to be spent. A mundane will spend on enhancements. So what if my natural Reaction is 1, I just bought MBW which increases my Reaction to a decent score. So what if my natural Agility sucks, I bought Muscle Toner. Therefore, you still have the Attribute at least 2 when you default. I could simply buy up the skills with the karma instead so I do not have to default.

Shin raises an important point about glitches. I'd rather default to a pool of 0 than default to a pool of 1 or 2 in most cases. With a single die you're nearly as likely to critical glitch as you are to get a single hit, and single hits are often pretty ineffective to begin with. In Shadowrun having a dump stat is pretty smart simply because attempting something that's out of your league is often a dumb risk, so there's li'l point in worrying about getting your dicepool into long shot territory.

There somethink seriously wrong with your math.'
Ratingx5 means its 10 for 2 and then 15 for 3, so 25 to raise it to 3 and then your essence loss drops it to 2.

Shin is apparently using Current Rating x 5... Not exactly sure why though, as it is New Rating x 5, as you and several others have noted...

Keep the Faith

I think the tweak to Magic and Resonance costs is silly. You already have to buy it up first, and then lose the points you have paid for when you add 'ware. The only thing the additional rule will do is to make awakened characters and technomancers initiate or submerge (raising their minimum) enough times beforehand that they won't face that penalty.