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Halloween Jack
After reading the SSG, I have a hard time understanding how you can get any runs done in the city. Isn't it pretty easy for the cops to check GridGuide and realize that your car was parked at a bar two blocks over from the manufacturing plant that blew up? And that you were parked down the street, in an alley, for no discernible reason, from the office building where a guy got kidnapped? Do you now have to park your car 3 miles away from the run? How would you ever do a job in a D, E, or Z-Zone without walking there?

Furthermore, how does anyone without a SIN even own a car now? I imagine that all cars have to be registered for GridGuide purposes, and how can you register a vehicle without a SIN?
Fortune
Well, you could always rip out the transponder. Alternately, you (or an associate) could hack the DMV (or equivalent) to alter/falsify/etc the records for the vehicle in question.
Nikoli
Shoot, after reading the original Lone Star book, one has to wonder how any runs ever got done, let alone transportation.
Method

There is an item in R3 called a transponder liberary that allows your vehicle to "appear" as any number of preprogramed vehicles in the system....
Pistons
I'm also pretty sure that there are still some cars and bikes that don't run on Grid Guide, having older model or different fuel engines.
spotlite
I think you can choose to opt out of gridguide. You'd have to be able to in case of an emergency (say, gangers riding counter traffic in your lane), but anyone who had not surrendered control to the central system in other circumstances would surely look suspicious - they'd stand out from the legions of wage slaves happily letting their cars do the driving while they finish up some paperwork from the office like good little drones, right? So you'd get attention. That's where the rigger comes in - if you're on the lamb and the cops notice you, the rigger is there to get you out. You can also do the transponder tricks, decker tricks, and signature improvements work wonders - figure if you're not on guide, you have a good chance of not even being picked up by the system if you've got a good enough sig. Then you need the cops to get an eyeball on you and notice that you aren't showing up on their traffic display.

There's ways and means. If its a big issue, then as a gm you should allow players to get away with any cunning ideas for a while, but they instant they get rumbled, or leave clues then the opposition should start learning how to counter it, and then let them figure a new way round it. But it doesn't factor that highly in most of our games cos we're either in the wilderness or the seedier areas of seattle than downtown and the glittering corporate spires. They only go into the centre for nights out and meets - they've all been on the wrong end of a triple A security rating before!
Lantzer
QUOTE (Halloween Jack)
1) After reading the SSG, I have a hard time understanding how you can get any runs done in the city.

2) Isn't it pretty easy for the cops to check GridGuide and realize that your car was parked at a bar two blocks over from the manufacturing plant that blew up? And that you were parked down the street, in an alley, for no discernible reason, from the office building where a guy got kidnapped? Do you now have to park your car 3 miles away from the run?

3) How would you ever do a job in a D, E, or Z-Zone without walking there?

4) Furthermore, how does anyone without a SIN even own a car now? I imagine that all cars have to be registered for GridGuide purposes, and how can you register a vehicle without a SIN?

1) I suggest reading Rigger 3 - its got a nice section on GridGuide.

2) They _could_ if they knew what they were looking for, if the alley you parked in was wired for Gridguide, and if they were motivated enough to do some serious data mining and cross-checking. And if your car was registered in your name, if at all.

3) Actually, unlawful driving isn't that bad in areas rated lower than A. System maintainence isn't perfect, tends to be restricted to major roads, and gangs often vandalize the gridguide sensors.

4) Black market. Not everybody without a SIN has a car, granted - because they can't afford it. But there will always be people willing to lose paperwork, or sell to a dodgy fake SIN for a little extra under the table (Street Index). There are also stolen vehicles.

A modern vehicle in SR is required to have two forms of ID on it - a license plate and a transponder. Plates can be stolen or altered, and the transponder can be chopped out. Now, if the Guide notices that your car is missing a transponder signal, it will try to take a picture of your plate, and fine the SIN that is attached to the plate, along with a warning to get the transmitter fixed. If your plate is obscured or missing, it might flag your vehicle for the Star to take a look at if they have time.

Like someone else mentioned, transponder libraries are a nice toy, along with morphing plates.
Capt. Dave
Bah! This is all foolishness. My runners NEVER have to worry about getting pulled over, having their cars checked out, getting tickets, or even having their cars stolen. Why? Because every one of my 5 players opted to take no vehicles of any kind. That's right.<SARCASM> It's the ultimate in deception. Who expects a crack extraction team to pull up to their target in a fraggin' taxi?! </SARCASM>No, really, have you ever seen a SR team taking a bus? It's beyond sad.
Lantzer
Um We've had a character with a implanted clock and a huge knowledge skill: Public transportation schedules.

He'd do the job, run down the block, and disappear into the mass-transit system. (also had a magnetic limb system - he didn't always wait for the bus/train to stop.)
phaedrus
I had some runners with zero vehicle skills and they looked all surprised when I asked them how they planned on getting to the meet with the Johnson who had just called - walk? Public transport carrying a LMG or an AK98? Hmmm... Then one of them tried to run a Renraku Red Sam down with a car he couldn't drive - he had no driving skills at all! Needless to say he wasn't all that successful and the car didn't stay in a drivable condition for very long...
toturi
Which is why Knowledge skill: Seattle Sewers is your friend. By the way, I do not understand why anyone other than a rigger should buy a vehicle skill. Afterall, the damned car has an autopilot for crying out loud. For anyone else, it is just another mode of transportation.
Adam
Well, there is the rationale that some people like to drive. smile.gif
3278
QUOTE
I had some runners with zero vehicle skills and they looked all surprised when I asked them how they planned on getting to the meet with the Johnson who had just called - walk?

I'd have been surprised, too, since SR rules presume /anyone/ can drive a car [by defaulting, if nothing else]. The "Car" skill is for /combat/ driving, or /performance/ driving. Getting from point A to point B, on the other hand, is something pretty much anyone can do.

QUOTE
By the way, I do not understand why anyone other than a rigger should buy a vehicle skill. Afterall, the damned car has an autopilot for crying out loud.

Well, first of all, not every team has a rigger, so as in real life, they need a "wheelman." Sometimes, that's just some guy on the team who likes to drive, or happened to get a little training in the military or somesuch; other times, it's someone who's semi-dedicated to driving as an activity, for fun or profit.

Second, my own car has about 12,000 electronic gewgaws, about none of which I use [although I like the mileage computer, because it gives you something to do on those long trips]. I sure as hell wouldn't use an autopilot, except on the freeway, not because I wouldn't trust it, but because it makes my presence in the car completely extraneous. Like Adam mentioned, some people /like/ to drive; I don't even like automatic transmissions [one of which I'm cursed with at the moment]. I prefer to be hands-on whenever I can, using manual windows, seats, transmissions, and so on. [I submit to my power locks, though.]

Thirdly, using the autopilot for in-city trips can feel...stupid. Have you ever driven a car with one of those in-dash mapping computers? Personally, I feel dumb using it for any trip; I can't imagine how useless I'd feel using it to take a jaunt to the corner store. [Not that you need the Car skill to drive to the corner store; I'm just saying that the autopilot isn't necessarily a replacement for a driver.]

Finally, let me again stress that driving, for some people, is a passion, and not a way of moving from point to point. If I just wanted to "get somewhere," I'd walk, or take a bus, or have someone else drive. But to drive, to get behind the wheel of a car and get somewhere not in the shortest time, but with the most fun, /that/ is something that requires hands-on driving, and something that requires "performance" or "combat" abilities.

Don't think of it - if you were - in terms of wasted points on character creation. Think of it from the point of view of your character: just as it's a good practice to take skills like Air Hockey or Chess for characters who have invested a fair amount of time, practice, and passion into those activities, it's a good idea, if your character would, himself, love to drive a car, or a motorcycle, or a boat, or a plane, recreationally, then he should have the appropriate skill.
kevyn668
I hate it when I can't give a charater at least a 4 in some vehicle skill. Its like not having athletics.

In SR and in RL I dislike having to rely on others for getting around (unless its to the pub, of course. Then I'm all about it! smile.gif )

Plus if you only have the rigger, what happens when he/she gets whacked? I'll tell ya what happens: you're fragged, thats what.

On the RL drivng note: a do a LOT of driving for work (not as much as truckers, but still a lot) and sometimes I'd give a whole lot if the company car came w/ onstar or the indash map. As it is, I've become quite adept at driving, reading a map, drinking a cup of coffee, smoking a cigarette, and talking on the phone (hands free, of course). All at the same time. Even in the rain. smile.gif

Granted, thats not the same as driving under fire......
Solstice
A couple thingd most of you overlooked:

1. the Grid is damaged/under construction/non existant/non operational/malfunctioning in many areas anything below a B zone does IMO.

2. You can jam the guide transponers (the ones on the sidewalk not your car) and feed them misinformation.

3. Also Grid guide is only prevelant on main artierials and more important streets. Parking areas are most likely not subject to Grid Guide nor are alleys or non arterial streets (though I'm sure there are a number of other security measures).
locomotiveman
QUOTE (Lantzer)
Um We've had a character with a implanted clock and a huge knowledge skill: Public transportation schedules.

He'd do the job, run down the block, and disappear into the mass-transit system. (also had a magnetic limb system - he didn't always wait for the bus/train to stop.)

I know people with that skill in real life.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (3278)
The "Car" skill is for /combat/ driving, or /performance/ driving. Getting from point A to point B, on the other hand, is something pretty much anyone can do.

Speaking as someone from the Northeast, that's not true for several days each winter.

~J
Kakkaraun
According to Matrix, GG has to be "activated."
Tal
My last group of bullet-bait PCs decided that it would be a good idea to just start carjacking people for runs, then dumping the car at the local scrapyard for a couple hundred nuyen.gif . Worked pretty well for a while.
Lantzer
I'd worry that it was a good way of messing up the run before it really started.
Tal
Like I said, bullet-bait. vegm.gif
Prospero
First of all, if the runner's car is under one of their real IDs and the cops (Lone Star or Corp) know this and know who the ID refers to and know that these specific runners are/were pulling a job nearby and start looking for said car... you're pretty fragged already. GridGuide is the least of your worries, I'd say. Otherwise, who cares that John Doe's car was parked two blocks away at the time of the job? So were a bunch of other cars.

On a slightly different note: I was wondering where people think keyless entry tech went. I mean, as of now, 2004, I have a friend who can start his car from a couple of blocks away, turn on the radio and A/C or heating, etc. And it wasn't all that expensive. It's gotta be standard by 2064, right? And with GridGuide and autopilots... I mean, you wouldn't have to be a rigger to get your car to drive to where you are (as long as its somewhere with a good GridGuide).
Moonwolf
You don't even need GrindGuide for that, an autopilot 4 will be able to drive cross country to get to you, as long as it doesn't get into combat.
Nikoli
The first Batman movie comes to mind.
Edward
Morphing plates are useless.

A rotating plate will give you 3 or 4 options and if well built can not be detected by the star that happens to be behind you.

They don’t exist in any of the books but we can build them today in real life. Also they would be cheaper. The only disadvantage is a low limit on the number of plate options.

One character I am playing has pilot 2 in his car set up not for rigging but to receive cellophane messages to pick me up at a certain location. It is registered under my real sin so I don’t use it for running except for transport after legging it on foot.

Edward
FrostyNSO
I had some runners decide they would do the old 'carjack a hooptie' scheme for a while. It all ended when they carjacked a car with a baby in the carseat.

I've also had runners take the taxi to about 3 blocks from the target and then hoof it out on the retreat. That ended when the tax driver saw bullets flying and left them in the dust.

Finally they just started renting limos. Same as the taxi solution.

One character gets a bike skill and a rapier. Arrives at the target in minutes after the rest of the team walked from the bus stop.

Team buys car. Hires ex-taxi driver on retainer...anything to avoid getting a car skill.
Black Isis
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
Bah! This is all foolishness. My runners NEVER have to worry about getting pulled over, having their cars checked out, getting tickets, or even having their cars stolen. Why? Because every one of my 5 players opted to take no vehicles of any kind. That's right.<SARCASM> It's the ultimate in deception. Who expects a crack extraction team to pull up to their target in a fraggin' taxi?! </SARCASM>No, really, have you ever seen a SR team taking a bus? It's beyond sad.
Digital Heroin
QUOTE (Prospero)
First of all, if the runner's car is under one of their real IDs and the cops (Lone Star or Corp) know this and know who the ID refers to and know that these specific runners are/were pulling a job nearby and start looking for said car... you're pretty fragged already. GridGuide is the least of your worries, I'd say. Otherwise, who cares that John Doe's car was parked two blocks away at the time of the job? So were a bunch of other cars.

Any runner who uses a car registered under their legit SIN for biz should be shot...
FrostyNSO
BI :

That cartoon totally sums up my players =) funny funny.
FSBO
I agree with Digital Heroin, but not just cars, Guns and all tools of the trade should be for the specific job then got rid of. If you are using other then standard cars and vans then you rigger would be like the show monster garage prepping the special vehicle.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
Bah! This is all foolishness. My runners NEVER have to worry about getting pulled over, having their cars checked out, getting tickets, or even having their cars stolen. Why? Because every one of my 5 players opted to take no vehicles of any kind. That's right.<SARCASM> It's the ultimate in deception. Who expects a crack extraction team to pull up to their target in a fraggin' taxi?! </SARCASM>No, really, have you ever seen a SR team taking a bus? It's beyond sad.

My players have gone this route more times than I care count - buses, taxis, monorail...
Tarantula
QUOTE (Edward)
Morphing plates are useless.

A rotating plate will give you 3 or 4 options and if well built can not be detected by the star that happens to be behind you.

They donít exist in any of the books but we can build them today in real life. Also they would be cheaper. The only disadvantage is a low limit on the number of plate options.

One character I am playing has pilot 2 in his car set up not for rigging but to receive cellophane messages to pick me up at a certain location. It is registered under my real sin so I donít use it for running except for transport after legging it on foot.

Edward

Actually, by R3 rules, morphing plates can be tied into a transponder library, and automatically change the plate to match the plate your transponder is sending. Making it so they actually have an infinite number of plate possibilites, the wonders of nanites.

They do exist in the books, if you're wanting the vehicle rules, go to the book that is all about vehicles, R3. Matrix has a little bit on gridguide, but R3 has a good section dedicated to it.

Regardless, unless your driving something like an APC and decide to park it across the street from the place, you'll probably be ok.
Solstice
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
Bah! This is all foolishness. My runners NEVER have to worry about getting pulled over, having their cars checked out, getting tickets, or even having their cars stolen. Why? Because every one of my 5 players opted to take no vehicles of any kind. That's right.<SARCASM> It's the ultimate in deception. Who expects a crack extraction team to pull up to their target in a fraggin' taxi?! </SARCASM>No, really, have you ever seen a SR team taking a bus? It's beyond sad.

LOL that is awesome.
viggo
QUOTE (Moonwolf)
You don't even need GrindGuide for that, an autopilot 4 will be able to drive cross country to get to you, as long as it doesn't get into combat.

the concept of a car getting into combat all by its lonesome is hilarious. Someone told me to stop laughing so loud.
Kremlin KOA
Hey Frosty, how did the baby stop them? I woulda thought one silenced Pistol shot would have gotten around that little issue
Slump
The morphing plate is pretty obviously not a real plate when you're up close and personal, which is why if star is behind you, they'd notice it wasn't legit.

This is why you have a combo-package. Rotating plates (3), one is a morphing plate, and you have that lovely color-changing paint, all linked to your transponder library.

Get on a busy road, change transponder codes, plates, and color. Bam, a brand new car just got off of the turnpike. I would have subtle color changes, like red to dark orange, to orange, to light orange. This way people would think it's a trick of the light, but the cameras just see an orange americar with plates and a transponder code of an ... orange americar.
Digital Heroin
While I like the idea of the combo package, a familiar alley or side road is really much better for a change of car ID... trick of the light, maybe on a really sunny day, but I think most people would notice the car they're next to/behind has suddenly changed from red to orange...
Blacken
Carjacking stops being useful when the targets shoot back.

Warhawk to the face, anyone?
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