Just curious about creating and using Power Armor in SR4.

In SR3, you could build some interesting examples through the vehicle creation rules... but in SR4, all we have are modification rules.
Just wondering if there are any examples of Power Armor out there.

I was just recently browsing the official Shadowrun FAQ on shadowrun4.com, and came across this tidbit...

"What happens to their clothing and armor when a drake or shapeshifter uses their Shift power?

Clothing is generally shredded or burst through; armor may also be ruined at the gamemaster's discretion. Shapeshifters or drakes in power armor may find themselves trapped. "


It's funny, I hadn't even thought much about Power Armor in SR4 until I read that, then skimmed through my books again and still didn't find anything.
Maybe the aformentioned power armor is in a supplement I don't have?


EDIT: I should probably add that I'm not interested in making a PC that uses (and abuses) Power Armor.... though if I finally get a SR game off the ground as a GM, a surprise encounter with some Power Armor opposition might be interesting...

Nah.

There are mobility assisted milspec armors though, which I suppose could be considered power armor, although they still depend on the wearer for mobility more than vice versa.

Nitpickingly, I do believe those are known as power-assist armors, rather than complete power armor sets.

That's not much of a nit-pick. They're armor, and they are powered. There isn't exactly a standardized nomenclature for this stuff considering that it's generally sci-fi and comic book territory.

But it's a nit to pick all the same. The augmentation of a power-assist is far lower than power armor itself,and power armor is meant by definition to completely contain the pilot.

Edit: I disagree. The U.S. Military and DARPA have very clear definitions of what power armor is supposed to be.

Just sayin', your conventions are not agreed up on by everyone. That's why it's a convention.


Screw DARPA.

That'd be a good thing to add to a space supplement. They have the security space suits, but they aren't power armor. Power armor would be waaaay cooler to use on a zero-g walkabout where you are shooting big space lasers at dastardly Shadowrunners though. You might be able to use a cyborg as a starting point, but it would have to be bigger so more than a brain could fit into it.

Thbbbbpt.

Hey, just saying, I'll respect their opinion on the matter once they start calling it aluminium like the rest of the planet. Language is funny.

Raspberries aside, it's interesting we don'tsee power armor more in the SR world. After all, we have cyberlimbs that runoff the body's natural energy supplies and are capable of turning a man into Robocop, or the Bionic Commando. Add a power source that's based off the MPIII laser pack or something, and you could have a heavy military suit that, with an Exotic Something skill to signify training, would allow low-Bod characters to have full armor (until it had to be charged).

The technology is there, it just has been utilized to replace flesh instead of encase it.

WOAH. Normally off-topic rants are par for the course here, but not even FIVE posts in and people are bad-mouthing DARPA or something? FIVE?



Now. Power Armour?

Military Armor (especially of the heavy variety) with the Mobility Upgrade and Strength Upgrade (and then even Hydraulic Jacks and a Gyromount) would be considered power armor under any definition I would think. If it was any more "powered" it would be a vehicle instead of armor.

That's what a full powered armor suit essentially is. Get an augment suit like that and you could run at 35-50 mph with the proper training.

But we already have that in the Mobility Upgrade for military grade armors. A Body 3 character can wear the heavy suit and be at -1, or a Body 4 character can wear it with no penalty assuming a Mobility Upgrade at rating 3.

Shouldn't power suits be vehicles? You should be able to rig them, and they should take damage like vehicles. I'm imagining what a Power Suit Pink Mohawk Moment would be like.

Yes, but the Powered suit would be a step beyond this. We're talking about a full suit that a Body 2 character could wear with no penalty.

I would classify that as a personal vehicle rather than power armor. Armor in this context assumes something worn instead of something operated. It's all subjective of course so YMMV, that's just the way I see it.

So, add a Mobility Upgrade rating 4 (or 5) to get there and voila. It's not in the book but that doesn't mean Ares isn't developing such a thing.

If it makes you feel any better I had a smile on my face the whole time.

-- Oh gods, Power Armor. You are aware this is one of the longest-running blue balls jokes in the game right? It's hinted at constantly and never has game rules

Fields of Fire (2054)
-- biggest tease
Military Grade Armor, p. 54

"I heard Fuchi's working on a fully-powered version of this kind of armor: strength apmplification, jump-pack system, integrated weapons, the works."

"Just rumors, but I heard it was Ares, not Fuchi."

Oooooh shit!

I forgot about that!

No thats a battle suit....
Go go ott conflicting deffionations.

I'd like to point out thats its rather easy to make a budget battlesuit with arsenal's modification rules.

All you need is walker mode and two arms. Possibly upgraded armor or, alternatively, a rigger coccoon.

Cool beans, I like it. Does anyone want to throw together a build on that and drop it into the Shadowrun Space thread? It might even get published.

How would a runner go about repairing or replacing damaged power armour?

I'd probably go with a combination of Armorer and Hardware for minor repairs, but I think once the damage gets serious enough you'd have to approach it like repairing a drone. I think I would probably have it be a series of relatively simple tests across multiple disciplines rather than one hard test ruled by a single Skill. After all, when you consider how good SR4 drones are, it becomes apparent that the only tricky thing about a Power Armor suit would be the need to reconcile the way the suit moves with the fact that there's a person in there and you don't want them to get hurt. It's the combination of things that's the problem.

Yeah, I've got one.

This assumes you've got the optional rule of "Full Mechanical Arms Get Cyberlimb Capacity". You can either put an External, Fixed weapon mount on a drone, and use Gunnery, and enjoy other benefits, such as the ammo reserve. Or not, and use the limbs.

Originally from a 'things for your hacker to do in combat' thread, this Budget Battlesuit'nets you:
Decent dice to shoot stuff with command+gunnery.
the ability to run away from a troll(speed 40 vs 35)
The ability to have your auto-doc unit first-aid treat you for biofeedback damage is a huge plus.
And....... you can tool around in meatspace instead of just slumping and turning your body off in VR.

Evo Orderly: 2000, avail 4.
Handl 0
accel 5/20, speed 40. Pilot 3, body 3, armor 3, sensor 2.
Medium Sensor Array: Capacity 6, Signal 4
5:Radar 6, 1200Y
1: Camera 6, smartlink, 1100Y
Standard Upgrades: Two mechanical Arms, Walker Mode, Special Machinery(medkit 6), Rigger Adaptation(its a drone, gets it for free).
Mod Possibilities: 4 slots. (for this version, I went Gecko Tips, weapon mount, enhanced coccoon, pimped ride.).
Gecko Tips: 1 slot, 150Y.
Rigger Coccoon, Enhanced. 2 slot/4000Y.(1slot/1500Y for basic)
Weapon Mount: Normal size, External, Fixed, Remote control. 1 slot 2000Y
Weapon Mount: Ares MP-LMG. 1500Y. External Smartlink: 400.
Pimped Ride 1 (Walks Upright. It already has walker mode, so it can't be added again.) Overmodded: 300Y, 0 slots.
Armor9 , unconcealed: 1800Y, 1 slot
Improved Sensor Array: 1000Y, 1 slot
=12000 Nuyen, on the dot.

Other possibilities: Cyberarm slides and gyromounts in the arms. Radar Sensor(its ultrawide in disguise, augmentation 46) in the arm. Ditto Scanner System(its a MAD scanner, aug 45). You could also fill them full of Alphaware Datajacks(device rating 4), and cluster them for a decent hacking platform.(with properly Optimized programs), and Optimized hardware mods on the jacks themselves
Alternatively, this sensor loadout:
1: Camera 6, Smartlink. 1100
1: Motion sensor, rear. 50
1: Microphone 6, spatial recognizer 400
2: Ultrawideband radar 4, 2000
1: Radio Signal Scanner 6, 150
Underbarrel weapons on the MP-lmg - an Enfield grenade launcher, or possibly an aztechnology striker with an airburst link.

Edit: Apparently Full Mechanical Limbs can only be used to take accessories, despite the pages it points to being the whole cyberlimb rules with capacity and everything.

Light Military armor 16F/12k¥, 10 capacity points
[3]Strength +3, 12R/4.5k¥
-- no jump-pack
[3]Mobility Upgrade 3 18R/7.500k¥
[4]Hydraulik Jacks 3 9/4.5k¥
[-]Ruthenium Polymer Coating 12R/7.5k¥

36k¥, worn without penalty if (ball 12 - body*3)/2 is 3 or less... assuming body 2 the penalty for wearing this armor is 6/2-3=0. Strength is boosted by the difference between a sub-average and a well-trained human. Jumping and Running are boosted even more.

Steeled warriors would prefer better Hydraulic Jacks instead of the Mobility Upgrade, as body 4 is enough to wear the armor without penalty. Lowers the availability problem to 16 on a single item. For integrated weapons you need heavier armor.

Anyone fancy statting up jumppacks? I'm surprised they're not around, given the tech level in SR.

Do you think the Security Spacesuit gets milspec upgrades? Or would a Milspec Spacesuit be even heavier?

-- They should be available, given the various flying drones and their performance

-- Sketching out performance with GURPS Vehicles:
* Assumes 350 lb capacity (want to lift a good-sized metahuman and his gear).
* Assume we don't want to use helicopter rotors or large ducted fans. Assume we are unconcerned about jetwash (armor on the legs).
* Assumes good stability control and vectored thrust capability.

450-lb lift light turbofan (56.25 lbs, $8,437.50, 6.75 gallons jet fuel per hour)
-- Vectored thrust option increases this to 84.375 lbs, $12,656.25
-- This leaves us with 15 lbs or so (not a lot as jet fuel is 6.5 lbs per gallon!. Lets say 2 gallons for 17 minute endurance (enough for bounding jumps)
2-gallon ultralight self-sealing tank (0.2 lbs, $100)
-- 2 gallons jet fuel (13 lbs)
Exposed Harness crew station (2 lbs., $25)
Computerized controls ($1,000)

Aerial Top Speed (c.9 sf of surface area on the engine pod)
Drag = 29
Top Speed = 340 mph

This is a rough design that I only spent a few minutes on, but gives you some idea of what it would look like. I ignored the structure costs (negligable in this case anyways, the volume is only about 2 cf).

They are - kind of. Try the Sparrow FPMV, in arsenal. You'd basically put the soldier in one of those.

A comparable one - in terms of statistical representation, in that it flies and has rockets - is a Transys Steed.(which can already carry a person, because its a chair), with Lighter Than Air (speed of 20, but you can fly), Rocket Boosters, and a crash harness for its wearer, via Passenger protection.

For a flying people-moving jetpack, it might be appropriate to use a Gun Port on the vehicle - instead of a weapon mount, representing the milspec armor's ability to link up with the rocketharness, and use its thrusters to compensate for firing guns.

Rasczak's Roughnecks are ready to take out the next bug hive.

Ummm. . . I haven't yet had the chance to look at BattleRun, but given the presence of Elementals and other such various and sundry power armor in BattleTech, are there SR rules in that set for using Elementals/Inner Sphere Standard/whathaveyou?

Bwahaha.... yeah, I always got that impression. Great quote!





ACTUALLY.... I stated up some Power Armor using SR4 Arsenal mod rules the other day. It actually turned out pretty interesting...

Most people usually try to mod the drones, particularly the anthro drones that are available, like Udoshi did to the Orderly. The Tomino would be perfect, but obviously it's way out of the reach of most any character in availability and price...


But really, you can add Walker mode to any Groundcraft, with the only restriction being it must 10 or less body.


What did I pick as the basis of my Super Cool Power Armor Modification Transformation??

The Hyundai Shin-Hyung of course!
Why? Well it already starts with 10 Body, which is the max we can have for a Walker. It also has a great starting acceleration and speed of 20/45 and 160, which halved still leaves us with a very speedy walker.
But best of all... it comes with an extra 4 additional mod slots, for a total of 14! Perfect for all that 'wiz gear we want to stuff in there!
Here are it's base stats and cost....


Hyundai Shin-Hyung
Handling: +2
Accel: 20/45
Speed: 160
Pilot: 1
Body: 10
Armor: 5 (I assume it\'s concealed, as this is a street car)
Sensor: 1
Availability: - (Easy to find!)
Price: 17000 (Cheap enough for our runners!)

Also, we have a juicy 14 slots to play with... yum yum....

So what do we want? What are our Power Armor essentials? What makes Power Armor.... well, POWER ARMOR?

-2 Fully Articulated Mechanical Arms
-Walker Mode
-Rigger Adaptation (obviously)
-Rigger Cocoon (Basic is fine, though Enhanced is super cool if you can swing the 14 availability)
-Life Support (preferably Level 2 for a fully sealed Environment.... even works in space!)
-Armor (the more the merrier! if we remove the concealed armor we can get obvious Armor up to 20 and even free up an extra mod slot, as obvious only costs 1 slot and concealed is 2)
-Pimped Ride (more a requirement than a want... I\'m sorry, but that Power Armor sticks out like a sore thumb and the mechanics of Pimped Ride are perfect)

IMHO, these are the bare essentials. Notice it doesn't include a weapon... but with the fully articulated arms you can easily carry some.... and you can always still mod some in (see below)
So altogether.... those essential mods come to *drumroll* ...

Arms = 4 slots / 8000 nuyen
Walker Mode = 2 slots / 5000
Rigger Adaption = 1 slot / 2500
Rigger Cacoon (basic) = 1 slot / 1500
Life Support (Level 2) = 3 slots / 20000 <--- This is the big expense in nuyen and slots, but I think it's something that SkepticInc would especially be interested in for those Space runs
Normal Armor 20 (replaces concealed 5) = +1 slot / 4000
Pimped Ride (Level 2) = 1 slot/ 5000

Including the downgrade form Concealed to Normal Armor, that's a net of 11 mod slots used and 46000 nuyen spent. No mod is over 12 Availability, so it's all available in chargen without the restricted quality.

So in total, this piece of basic functional Power Armor costs 63000. Sounds about right to me! Much more than Milspec armor, but still cheaper than high-end 'ware.
Now that extremely modded Hyundai Shin-Hyung Street Racer looks like this....

"Blue Baller" Power Armor
Handling: +3
Accel: 10/23
Speed: 80
Pilot: 1
Body: 10
Armor: 20
Sensor: 1
Upgrades: 2 Mechanical Arms, Walker Mode, Rigger Adaptation, Rigger Cocoon, Life Support 2, Pimped Ride 2
Availability: 12R
Price: 63000


But let's not forget we still have 3 mod slots to play with even before we get into potential overmodding.
You could even downgrade the Life Support to level 1 and save an additional 2 slots.
Also, you could argue that you could gain a mod slot or two by removing any extra passenger space from the car, as well as cargo space (like the trunk).

A short list of upgrades I would definitely be interested in...

-Assembly Time Improvement (for breaking it down and storing it in a much smaller place, like the back of a van)
-Extreme Environment Mod (as necessary, depending on the field of deployment)
-Ram Plate (Hell Yes! I would treat it as a shield on one arm. It wouldn\'t raise the armor, but would justify smashing stuff)
-Touch Sensors (for when you really have to feel like you are one with the machine)
-Weapon Mount w/ optional Ammo Bin
-Chameleon Coating
-Body Stabilizer (I would almost consider this a part of the basic suit... super handy for maneuvering and recoil compensation)


Anyway, that's what I came up with a few days ago. I thought it was pretty neat... I even came up with a fun character concept around it.
Essentially, this young genius corp brat with a head for machines decides to trick out his street racer... but in a way nobody ever imagined. He's obsessed with the old Transformers vids and comics, and finally decides to make one for himself!
He modded the car with the basic setup above, except with these changes...

-Life Support 1 (instead of 2, saves 2 slots)
-Concealed Armor 10 (just kept the originally concealed armor and jacked it to 10)
-Body Stabilizer 3
-Touch Sensors
-Also some heavily upgraded SOTA sensors

Not only that, but the idea is that he kept the basic structure of the care intact as much as he could. Also, he can actually switch between normal wheeled mode and walker mode.
So when it's in wheeled mode, it just looks like a super tricked out corp brat street racer. But with a command he can transform into Power Armor mode!

AUTOBOTS ENGAGE!!

Hehehe... I also had an idea that in his first big street race, he lost, but because the other guy cheated. He very nearly killed him in the process, so this kid goes all Autobot on his ass and rips the other guys car to shit.
Wanted by the police (and also by the corp for the PA tech and know-how) he's been on the run ever since.


EDIT: Oh, and I should mention the corp kid is also a Dronomancer Technomancer who follows the Deadalus Paragon.

hi hi

Anthroform is a specialization of Automotive Mechanic, so I would bet that would be used for power armor unless it is just milspec armor with strength and mobility upgrades.

Rules with Battlerun? You really haven't read it have you?

Fully modded heavy milspec armour is power armour. Relatively large str boost. Mobility also enhances your speed tough admittedly not hugely. Capable of taking a huge amount of modifications. To the extent that one can be in the desert sun and still feel nice and cool. As for battle-suites ect. I have no problem with them being above 12 availability. Restricted gear exists for a reason. As any modded item only have the highest availability used its not per mod.

Looking into the science fiction on power armor (not deeply, mind you, just a quick google at this point) splits between to types of Power Armors, which matches the split in this thread. You have the infantry power armors along the lines of those projected by different Armed Forces around the world today which go by the name of Powered Exoskeleton designs, examples of which include the Future Force Warrior designs [link], and the Lockheed Martin Hulc [link]. On the other side of the spectrum, you get Robert A Heinlein's Starship Troopers drop armor which is much heavier. Flipping through my copy of the book I see them using flamethrowers in one hand, dropping 2 kiloton nukes, using bombs as opposed to grenades, etc. Everything the Powered Exoskeleton does, just on a heavier scale. They also get dropped from orbit, so that's pretty cool.

And then there's Mecha. So, infantry exoskeletons, then those little guys from Gundam, then Starship Troopers, then the big guys from Gundam, then Diebuster 2… then the final episode of Gurren Lagann.

I think the Appleseed manga, or to a lesser extent, the the CG movies are a decent source of inspiration for smaller-than-mecha but bigger than personal armor.

This is just my own opinion.... but personally, I consider Power Armor to be something that doesn't rely at all on the drivers physical stats... especially Strength.

In the cast of the augmented Milspec armor.... even though you can get a Strength boost, it's still just adding to whatever your character already has.
However, the way I see power armor.... you could be a 90 pound weakling and drive the thing, and your Strength wouldn't matter at all.
Of course, Agility, Reaction, and to some degree Body might.... but you know what I mean.


But as Skeptic said, there seems to be two different versions of Power Armor. That like I described (the Starship Troopers PA) and the more basic powered version (Milspec Armor).

*shrug* Just my two cents. I like both!

hi hi

Of course, once you start getting much bigger than man sized, you're really better off just using a tank. Mecha certainly benefit from the rule of cool, but realistically speaking they suffer from a lot of fundamental problems (not just engineering problems). They have a lot more surface area than tanks, meaning they need to spend more of their mass devoted to armor. Legs are less efficient than treads and exert a much higher ground pressure as they move around (an M1A1 exerts less ground pressure than a car). For human sized armor, you get the advantage of being able to climb, but once you get much larger you start running into the problem of the capability of structural materials to support your weight. Tanks also have a smaller target profile and can get better armor sloping qualities.

You're making the vehicle (pilot) versus armor (wearer) distinction. It is a good and relevant one.

Whoa, let's not even get into the fact that mecha are a stupid, inefficient, and probably unworkable concept. That's no fun.

Hahaha... yes yes, we all know that realistically Mecha are redunculous. But in a universe where Dragons run corporations and Trolls can hack a wireless VR matrix while a mage buddy provides cover with mind darts of doom... I don't mind so much.

But then again, that's why I think Power Armor suits are a good compromise. Ideally they wouldn't be much bigger than a Troll. Game mechanics wise, it's not really unbalancing... especially because Riggers can already achieve the same thing remotely without putting themselves at risk.

Power armor is plausible, and combat exoskeletons are a hot topic with the DoD because they allow trigger pullers to carry a lot more gear and armor without wearing themselves down to nothing hiking around Afghanistan mountains and patrolling urban areas. The problem with the concept isn't the technology, it's the shape of humans themselves -- which are not easily armored. Using a suit to carry armor that makes you practically immune to small arms fire = plausible, but making an anthroform that can stand up to tank fire .... probably not doable without making a LOT of trade-offs that negate the whole point.

I'd say that mil-spec power armor in SR4 already covers the basic concept. Anything more, and it's an anthroform vehicle, which just isn't a good fit with the rest of SR right now.

If you wanted to play a special Mecha-Mohawk campaign of Shadowrun, it would certainly change major aspects of the setting, but could be fun.

hi hi

Powered armor is certainly plausible, no argument there. Whether or not it is going to be effective against anyone but uneducated peasants living in mud brick houses wielding archaic weaponry is another question, along with cost. However, perhaps I should come at this from a different angle.

Drones in SR are unrealistically underpowered. We've got unmanned ground vehicles in production and in design that are very resistant to small arms and even some explosives. However, Shadowrun is a very human centric game that is about the characters, so having tons of cheap invincible drones everywhere doesn't help game balance very much. The problem with power armor is that once you have an armor technology that doesn't rely on human power to operate, you can just make drones out of it instead.

Not saying you can't go that route (I enjoyed bubble gum crisis as much as the next chap), just pointing out that it might come along with some unintended consequences.

Robert Heinlein made the argument for his power armor (which he described as looking like an "encephalitic gorilla") was based on training time. He goes on about negative feedback circuits and stuff, but comes back to being able to train bad asses much faster when they can use their own reflexes as a good starting point.



He seems to be saying that the job of the M.I. and tanks is very different, and the M.I. are put in situations that require human dexterity and discretion.

I am, however, projecting views onto a book written in 1959, so I claim no expertise here.

Mako Bulwark Battlesuit
The Bulwark battlesuit is Mako's first entry into the field of military-grade powered assist armor. It incorporates all of the latest toys from the boys at Mako labs. This suit of armor will survive longer than the wearer, it is so durable. And with our patent-pending Firelink smartlink software integrated this suit can dish it as well as it can take it. Mako-when the going gets tough, the tough get Mako!

Game Rules
Heavy Military Armor w/helmet-30000
mobility upgrade 3 +7500
strength upgrade 3 +4500
articulated weapon arm +3000
foot anchor +3000

B/I 18/16 | Capacity 17/20 | Avail you wish | Price 48000

-

Mako Dutchman Flight Suit
The Dutchman Flight Suit is an innovation in the field of mobile infantry deployment. This is a suit of armor that can grant your infantry the mobility to truly compete in today's battlefield. Our proprietary Updraft turbofan technology allows a man portable unit that can outfly even some autogyros! When your soldiers have this at their disposal they will always have the high ground. Mako- above the rest!

Game Rules
Lockheed Sparrow-body 4, armor 2, 19500
armor 8pts, 1 slot, +1600
personal armor 10pts, 2 slots, +5000
2 mechanical arms, 4 slots, +8000, +8000 (overmod)

Handling +1 | Accel 15/40 | Speed 90 | Pilot 3 | Armor 8 | Sensor 1 | Avail 16R | Price 42100

-

Mako Behemoth Mecha
It's a Mako Mecha, need we say more?

Game Rules
hyundai shin-hyung-slots 14, body 10, armor 5, 17000
walker mode, 2 slots, +5000
basic rigger cocoon, 1 slot, +1500
armor 20pts, 1 slot, +4000
2 mechanical arms, 4 slots, +8000
weapon mount (reinforced, flexible, remote), 3 slots, +6500

Handling +3 | Accel 10/22 | Speed 80 | Pilot 1, Body 10 | Armor 20 | Avail 24F | Price 42000