I've noticed that generally when I've seen people create characters, they max the +35 BP from the negative qualities, often in ways that just seem strange and metagamey. Do people really need those extra 35 build points to make an effective character?

Given that the 35 BP can be taken in ways that do not hinder a build, not taking those 35 BP would be "loosing out". So yes.

I think it's more of a case of people doing it because they can. Often, negative qualities are overlooked by the GM so they don't come into effect very often.

For my characters, I let the negative qualities shape the character. For example: Being a warrior of honour and tradition, she does not rely on edge to succeed. She has Bad Luck (+20BP) and only 1 point of Edge. Also, she has a Sensitive System (+15BP), so she dedicated her academic life to studying bioware. The Sensitive System actually cost me more in the end. I spent an additional 30BP on buying bioware instead of cyberware.

I'm just looking forward to when my player with the Long Haul addiction makes her next glitch

Negative qualities are one of those rare areas where roleplayers and min-maxers are confluent. Roleplayers max out their negative qualities for their roleplaying potential, while min-maxers pick negative qualities so they can build stronger characters. Although even roleplayers can take slightly metagamey negative qualities, because you have a finite number of points, and sometimes you need a boost to be able to get the character to fit your concept.

That's pretty much it. I almost always max mine out (when playing in a game that even bothers with the limits) simply because I find so many of them fun and/or interesting. Others simply suit my preferred style of character (Criminal SINner being a big one). Rarely is it done out of pure min-maxedness, but the extra points are always useful. If for no other reason than to buy some equally interesting positive qualities without impacting the rest of my stats.

If it helps and you're really worried about them being abused, one house rule I came up for in a freeform character creation system is that you can take up a certain number of positive qualities of your choosing. The only stipulation is that you have to take at least one negative quality of equal or greater value, too. It has to be a 1:1 ratio, though. You can't take one expensive negative quality to buy off several positive ones. This allows players to take advantage of the quality system without min-maxing the rest of their character simply because none of the qualities actually grant any bonus build points or karma.

As a player, I look through the entire list of negative qualities everytime I roll up a new character. I usually have a vague idea about how I want him built, but want to see what will really complete him. My technomancer was a media junkie, socially inept unless it was through the matrix. My demo man, well... Slightly obsessed with explosives, and had a severe lack of concern for collateral damage. Shapeshifter phys ad had a severe allergy to soy, was a combat monster[more animalistic, feral mind, ya know.], and uneducated? He was like an eighty year old with their first computer, and suffered simsense vertigo. Those AR banners made his head spin.

In Debt 30, Betel Addiction (Mild) 5. Done, every character. Now just dodge the GM…

If the GM runs those flaws correctly, they actually are flaws. In debt means that you have to pay back significantly more than you borrowed, with a loan shark level of interest increasing it each month. And you have to pay a karma cost to fully get rid of the flaw, otherwise you will perpetually be owing favors to the people who gave you the loan. Betel addiction means that your character has an annoying habit that leaves him more vulnerable to developing other addictions.

Annoying to whom?

Sure, but compared to Sensitive System on most people, or real addictions, or most of the other options…

As a player, I usually end up roleplaying out more negative qualities than I'm actually supposed to have in any given character. I may or may not max out on the -35 bp cap. But, the characters I make are usually quite flawed in their own, special ways. It makes the whole game way more fun for me, and my GMs seem to be alright with it. Although, there have been a few instances of confusion regarding exactly what flaws I'm taking bp for, and which ones are just there for roleplaying.

I admit, the bp bonus isn't bad, either.

Alright, but are those extra points needed?

I can understand taking some of them, but it seems like my players are just abusing the +35 BP.

You're almost 10% stronger than 400BP, and those are the points that let you fill in the egregious gaps in skills, or get 2-3 really solid contacts.

Definitely.

This all depends from your standpoint.

As a min maxer those +35 points are necessary because that's plenty of points to pick up alot of stuff with. And to truly optimize a build you should always get them.

As a story based character (the kind i play), I almost always end up balancing my positive and negative qualities for things that make sense for my story. Sometimes this is all 35, sometimes not.

Would be nice, but the reality is that once the debt is paid off it is gone. You can keep the negative quality, but it has no real effect in game play as there is nothing that is owed. Now if you borrow money it comes back, but other than that it is hard to justify the strong arming a PC to do some action for a non existent debt. That said is ifthe GM is smart and the missions are infrequent is allows a lot of leverage to the GM. The GM can put the character into a desperate situation where he takes very dangerous and bad jobs as they are less risky than trying to welch on the debt.

I do think the debt should be modified to "The character is required to perform a task for loan shark to help pay off the debt. The character is required to pay 10% of the original debt each month and is required to perform tasks as requested by the loan shark. These tasks are to approximately equivalent to 5000 Nuyen per point of flaw that is removed.


From a GMs perspective I would rather players take negative flaws. It gives a springboard for adventures and weaknesses that characters have to face. It also gives motivations to the characters so I can tailor adventures. Last thing I want is a tailored adventure to be sunk because the players decided they didn't offer enough money. Also ideally the character should be creating their own adventures and runs not me (ok, I do the background, defenses, etc,).

I'm a big fan of the Fate system, which is somewhat similar to Shadowrun mechanically, and I've been thinking of importing the Fate point refresh system as an edge refresh system, tied in some way to the player's negative qualities. Partially this is because I think the 10% extra power seems excessive.

I was thinking something along the lines of giving the players an edge refresh of (Negative Quality Space remaining / 7), minimum 1, which they'd get each session. This would reward players who don't completely take the full 35 points. I discussed this with my players, and they felt this would be broken. At this stage, it probably is. it needs a ton of fine tuning.

Based on what people said, perhaps it would be (Negative Qualities Space + Positive Qualities taken /7). So a character with 20 points in negatives and 20 in positives would get a 7 edge refresh at the start of sessions, while a character with 20 points in negatives would get 3 edge refresh at the start of sessions. Players with 30 negative qualities would get 1 refresh, 25 would get 2, etc, etc.

The reason Fate negatives work like this is that players get Fate points when their negatives complicate their lives, so when a player's life was complicated by his negative qualities, he'd potentially get an edge refreshed, at GM's discretion.

I realize this is a bit of a cobble, but I'd appreciate some feedback from players who know the system better than I do.

I would suggest to simply live with 35 BP of Negative Qualities per character. If everybody is getting the same number of "free" BP, everything is fine.

(It does not matter if those BP are spend on Positive Qualities or something else. Spending habits vary.)

The book already has some examples of when the GM can refresh Edge, including making it refresh per session or per mission. I would agree with Ryu, if everyone gets the same +35, it's probably best to not complicate things. Also, as a GM you can really make them earn those BP by making sure to employ the rules for them whenever possible/feasible. Know your player's negative qualities and make them a part of every session (not all of them at once, but make sure everyone suffers at some point during each run )



And semi-off topic, but what's the general feeling about going over the 35 point limit for Negative Qualities, assuming the GM makes sure to employ them. Positive Qualities are still a hard 35.

I am a big fan of the Qualities, both as a player and as a GM. When I GM, I make extensive notes on players Qualities, and try to work them all into the adventures I run. I also work with the players to ensure that they don't take "freebie points". I recently told one of my players to change the skill on his Inept (He took Inept: Hacking and was a street sam.) I have keep characters out of runs for their Day Jobs, had their Enemies shoot them up, immersed them in their allergies, and do truly wicked stuff when they are Wanted. Sinners and Criminal Sinners have to face repercussions, and any other social based Qualities always come back to haunt them, good or bad. I always have Addicted players make Composure tests when they have gone too long without. If they fail, I use the difference in hits as negative pool modifiers (sometimes without telling them why or what the test is for).

I also like the role play aspect of Qualities. I wish there was more of them to choose from! Most of my current players are new to Shadowrun. I go through the Qualities with them when they build their characters, and we look for ones that fit their character concept and background (They all have to answer the old-school 20 questions). I like the way this fleshes out their characters.