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Belvidere
I've been going over technomancer rules and trying to make a "generalized" character out of one and I've found it to be next to impossible. I'm attempting to make a well-rounded hacker/face out of him and I'm having no luck whatsoever. If I try and split 50/50, Technomancer/Face the technomancer side feels terribly crippled to the point where it can't accomplish much of anything.

Agreements, disagreements?
Mäx
QUOTE (Belvidere @ Jun 26 2010, 06:15 PM) *
I've been going over technomancer rules and trying to make a "generalized" character out of one and I've found it to be next to impossible. I'm attempting to make a well-rounded hacker/face out of him and I'm having no luck whatsoever. If I try and split 50/50, Technomancer/Face the technomancer side feels terribly crippled to the point where it can't accomplish much of anything.

Agreements, disagreements?

Technomancer/face should be quite doaple especially with charisma stream like technoshaman were the face atribute is also the atribute used in fading resistance.
Make the character a dryad with high charisma, empathy software 6 and social skill group 4 and you have a desantly baddass face with around 20 dice for social skill except intimidation and you should have plenty of points to still make a desant technomancer and you also got a gtreat fading resistance pool out of those points spent begoming a face.
Jaid
i'm going to have to disagree with max.

you *can* make a generalised technomancer; that is, a technomancer who is also good at things other than being a technomancer. what you can't do, is make a technomancer who will be very effective as a technomancer as well as another outside field. oh, you might be able to come up with someone who isn't completely horrible at being a face, but your dice pools are going to be a lot lower than a comparable hacker/face (or indeed, just about anything else with the possible exception of heavily specialised magicians)
in other words, when you're making a face, it might only take something like 150 BP (at a guess) spent towards that. when you're making a technomancer, well... it is *really* easy to spend 435 BP (ie taking max negative qualities) and *still* have lots of places you feel uncomfortably weak in. certainly, you could make a technomancer, but you wouldn't be making the kind of technomancer that might be expected in most groups.

however, it should be noted that sometimes you can do something weird and crazy with your technomancer. if you are trying to make a technomancer who is not a particularly good hacker or rigger, it should definitely be possible to have multiple areas of ability. for example, i seem to recall someone suggesting a technomancer melee (subdual) specialist who would build towards getting the resonance trodes echo and could then black hammer/blackout people. this would likely only require minor investment in being a technomancer at chargen (really, about 3 resonance, a few CFs, and cybercombat would be enough), but i speculate that when you asked about being a technomancer, you weren't talking about this sort of thing.
Mäx
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 26 2010, 10:46 PM) *
i'm going to have to disagree with max.

you *can* make a generalised technomancer; that is, a technomancer who is also good at things other than being a technomancer. what you can't do, is make a technomancer who will be very effective as a technomancer as well as another outside field. oh, you might be able to come up with someone who isn't completely horrible at being a face, but your dice pools are going to be a lot lower than a comparable hacker/face (or indeed, just about anything else with the possible exception of heavily specialised magicians)

The build i posted is a little over 100BP for around 20 dice social pool, should be plenty enought to act as a face for the team.
That still leaves you almost 300BP to spent on becoming a technomancer and as i said in my last post gives you a pretty damm good fading resistance pool too.

So yah that technoshaman might be depending on treading and sprites a lot more then a pure technomancer, but she should still be desant enough to will the role of the hacker for a team.
But i definedly do agree with you that technomancer a terrible point sinks.
Jaid
i've often found that it's hard to find the BP to afford the technomancer's *core* skill set (ie electronics, cracking) skill groups at 4, let alone secondary skill sets.
Teryn180
I know the one Technomancer I've made was scraping the bottom of the barrel for BP by the time I got to purchasing Complex Forms. So I won't say I think it's impossible to have them be a generalist character, but I wouldn't want them to be the only hacker type character in the group if they went that way.
Udoshi
A technomancer is roughly comparable to an adept in the way it can boost other 'archetypes' and professions. Sprites with knowledge/autosofts(specifically machine), extra passes, even bonus social dice(through sensor soft complex forms). There's even one similar to Multiasking.

The problem is, an adept gets to have Fun Things right off the bat, and a technomancer is completely reliant on echoes to do most of his Fun Stuff.

Yes, it is entire possible to make a generalist adept technomancer.

....just not with Build Points.


On a side note, if you want to play a TM well - concentrate on your Sprites. Most TM's are sprite wranglers early on, until they get some karma under their belt. Either that, or pump threading and rely on that, and bite the bullet for a point of ware - your faceparts will thank you for the tailored pheremones and biosculpting, while a Tm can benefit greatly from some things like a Math SPU, a vehicle control rig(it stacks with their similiar echo), or a nanohive rocking out the neocortical nanites.
Belvidere
Well the character I'm really attempting is an ex-corp player. He bought and sold stocks and could sweet talk people into trusting them with his cash... before the crash. After being trapped he tried to go back about his business but people tend not to trust you once you get busted with a fake SIN. Down and out on his luck he fell into the shadow biz just as his power started emerging and he's been running with them for awhile now, so I don;t want him to be a great technomancer. But at least good enough to be the groups only matrix support, along with having enough skill as a face to be an ex-corp player, which IMO has to be pretty good.
mrslamm0
I tried the Technomancer dryad route it worked pretty well but ended up leaning more towards the hacker role then any kinda of face. I still like how the char turned out though just needs a lot of improvement lol.
MortVent
Don't overlook threading, many times it's easier to put the BP into skills and then thread the CPs as needed... leaves you a little weak at first in some areas..

But treat it as making a face/hacker. Drop resources and contacts downward to compensate, and build upward on contacts and gear in game (as well as pick up combat or vehicle skills...)

It depends on background, and also a bit on BP creation. I run a TM in a game with a starting build of 600BP, started out a bit of a face/hacker type.. but has since picked up combat skills and focused a bit on hacking. She's the matrix face for the team and the other face handles the in person meets (not to mention most tend to be off put by a teen in negotiations, especially one that wears glasses/goggles and a resperator constantly [hey when you got Aztechnology looking for you as a lost science project... ])
Five Eyes
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 26 2010, 03:46 PM) *
For example, i seem to recall someone suggesting a technomancer melee (subdual) specialist who would build towards getting the resonance trodes echo and could then black hammer/blackout people.


See, this, combined with the thread premise, gave me an idea that sent me running off to Unwired. Sadly, PAB units aren't program-based and take weeks to work, because a brainwashing CF plus resonance trodes would be a great asset to a Technomancer that wants to do face work. You could subdue someone, put a hand on their head, and hack them into having a more favorable opinion of you...

Might use that as an adversary, next time I run a game with technomancers. Just say that it's a combination of custom Complex Forms and advanced Echoes.
Ravennus
So any suggestions for a fairly competent 400 BP Technomancer Hacker/Face?
I'm trying to work out a build I'm happy with....


I had a concept for one that focused on Spoofing and Conning. A younger kid, kind of like Leo from Catch Me if you Can. Only now Leo can control machines with his MIND. nyahnyah.gif


Of course, he'd likely follow a Charisma based Stream... either Networker or Technoshaman... but for the concept, I was thinking Networker.
Originally, I thought an Elf would work well... the extra +2 Cha is sweet and the +1 Agility is just Icing. Unfortunately, that +30 BP is a hell of a lot to spend with everything else I have to worry about.

So Human.... Body 2, Reaction 3, Agility 3, Strength 2, Charisma 5, Logic 4, Intuition 5, Willpower 4. Edge 2 and Resonance 5. = 240 BP

For positive qualities, I was thinking... Technomancer (of course), Codeslinger (Spoofing), Chatty, Paragon (Alias), First Impression, and Trustworthy (Con). Assume an equal amount of negative qualities to balance it out.

Now 160 BP left over for skills, equipment and Complex forms sound like a lot... but I'm having a hard time.


First, the skills...
Tasking Group 3
Electronics Group 3
Hacking 6 (+2 Spoof)
Cybercombat 3
Electronic Warfare 3
Con 4 (+2 Impersonation)
Etiquette 4 (+2 Matrix)
Negotiation 2
Perception 3
Pistols 1 (+2 Light Pistols)
Dodge 3

Those are all skills I consider fairly essential to the concept, and in many cases I lowered them to try and save BP. But if my shoddy math is right, that's already 184 BP right there!
So I'm 24 BP over, and I haven't even bought any equipment or Complex Forms yet!

Just kind of frustrating, especially because this is doesn't even come CLOSE to a min/maxed character.
MortVent
one thing to consider is what I ran into with mine, you can start with skills related to hacking/face work.. but no combat skills and as a youngster you can be starting out on the streets/shadows with 3pts in contacts (fixer 2/1) and 2 pts in resources (or even 1 pt as a technomancer really just needs a doss and some minor gear to work)

Also one thing I found helps is not to max out! It is tempting to go ahead and put hacking at 6. But cost wise groups work best.

A dual spec is not going to start out at min/max... they will always be a bit behind a focused character but will catch up.

Edit: quick char 400pt conversion of my 600bp tm

Elf
Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 2
Strength 2
Charisma 5
Logic 5
Intuition 5
Willpower 5
Resonance 5
Edge 2

Adv: Natural Hardening (10), Technomancer (5)
Dis: Sensative System (15), Moderate Uncommon Phobia (10, Imprisonment), Mild Common Allergy (10, polutants)

Active:
Electronics Group 3
Cracking Group 3
Tasking Group 3
Etiguette 3
Negotiation 3

Knowledges:
Lg - English N
Data Havens 4
Security Procedures 4
Matrix Theory 4
Lg - sperithiel 3
Lg- Japanese 3
Lg - French 3
LG - Spanish 3
Corporate Politics 3
VR Games 3

Complex forms:
Analyze 4
Browse 4
Stealth 5
Exploit 5

contacts:
Fixer 2/1

Resources : 5000 (1bp)
1 mth low lifestyle
yamaha pulsar taser w/ concl holster, 20 darts
Lined coat
Resperator 3
Medkit 3
2 Stim 4 patches
Flash-pak
Ar gloves
Subvocal microphone
Trodes
5 blank datachips
Glasses 2 W/ flare comp, image link
Meta Link Commling with Vector Xim OS
* std sim module
* 4 VR games
* 20 virtual surround music chips
* Virtual pet

Note this is a quick redo of the character, young technomancer with moderate skills (relys on sprites and threading for combat, but has the forms to get in for data steals, and do minor negotiation/etiguette...) just starting out vs a primed runner
Ravennus
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jun 29 2010, 12:06 AM) *
Note this is a quick redo of the character, young technomancer with moderate skills (relys on sprites and threading for combat, but has the forms to get in for data steals, and do minor negotiation/etiguette...) just starting out vs a primed runner



Interesting, but not really what I was looking for. I wanted to focus more on the social engineering aspect of hacking.

Either way, it just seems to me that Technomancer's are horribly costly without giving much in return?
I mean seriously.... this character is literally just a kid... fresh out of the corp arcology. For a supposed specialist, he's actually pretty bad. You could build a mundane hacker that could run circles around this kid in the matrix, then have enough BP left over to still be a combat machine and even a decent face.

The main advantage I see for Technomancer's are when they get a lot of Karma. Many of those echos are amazing, and eventually he's going to surpass the Hacker in the matrix.... but that will take a LONG time.
I don't know about you, but I'm lucky to get in a one-shot Shadowrun campaign... let alone one that plays twice a week for a couple years.

Also, the mundane hacker will also get all that Karma and be able to spend it on other things, making himself much more versatile.
Not to mention all the Nuyen from runs... he'll be able to afford much better 'ware and programs, whereas.... what will the Technomancer spend it on exactly? A Luxury lifestyle?

*shrug*

I LOVE the concept of Technomancers, and at first glance.. especially when looking at Unwired (which I recently bought)... they have some neat tricks and potential... but the opportunity cost just seems way too high, especially in Chargen (but even in a long running campaign).


Heck, Awakened characters don't even get hit this hard. It's so much easier to build a kick-ass mage or adept in Chargen and still have room for other stuff, and both those concepts benefit from a good influx of Karma AND Nuyen.

Or am I missing something completely? I have to admit, I haven't toyed around much with Technomancers, as I've never had one in a game or even been interested in them until I recently read through Unwired.
MortVent
the catch is a Technomancer doesn't really need nuyen.

So they tend to be balanced a bit as karma sinks.

Technomancers are more the specialist focused on what they do best, with minor talents elsewhere... And take time to develop, it is far easier to build other characters up at creation than a technomancer.

But a hacker that has his commlink taken away is going to have the skills, but none of the tools to use them.

Technomancer in effect are the new magicians in SR4 that mirror how earlier versions treated the magically active (huge karma sinks with spell levels costing karma per level, foci and spirit binging costs [which TMs don't have])

And unlike a mage a TM can improvise with threading, they don't start out superhuman like most characters

To be honest I recomend TMs mainly for those that can play them solo and with a group, so they have higher karma influx (mine spends most of the time working solo with some runs with a regular crew, but mostly one shot runs with random NPCs with a few regulars thrown in)
Ravennus
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jun 29 2010, 01:56 AM) *
the catch is a Technomancer doesn't really need nuyen.

So they tend to be balanced a bit as karma sinks.

Technomancers are more the specialist focused on what they do best, with minor talents elsewhere... And take time to develop, it is far easier to build other characters up at creation than a technomancer.

But a hacker that has his commlink taken away is going to have the skills, but none of the tools to use them.

Technomancer in effect are the new magicians in SR4 that mirror how earlier versions treated the magically active (huge karma sinks with spell levels costing karma per level, foci and spirit binging costs [which TMs don't have])

And unlike a mage a TM can improvise with threading, they don't start out superhuman like most characters

To be honest I recomend TMs mainly for those that can play them solo and with a group, so they have higher karma influx (mine spends most of the time working solo with some runs with a regular crew, but mostly one shot runs with random NPCs with a few regulars thrown in)


I get the idea of being a Karma sink, however the current setup for TMs just seem to take it too far. I think the current awakened characters have a good balance of karma sink, while still getting something out of all the Nuyen they are working so hard for. Honestly, I don't see what use Nuyen is to most Technomancers. Any TM worth his salt could easily Spoof a decent lifestyle, so it's not even like he has to pay for his Soyburgers and Latte.
So why do they even go on Shadowruns at all? Isn't it all for the scratch? (unless you are some kind of masochist adrenal junky freak)
It was my impression that money is balanced as another character advancement method, just like karma. It runs right along side it... so if a character has no use for it, it's like he's getting half the 'XP' as the other players.

I agree that being on the down-low with their hacking is a good thing, but costs way too much. Even a normal hacker can have his commlink implanted somewhere on his body that can't be removed easily, and there are even mundane solutions for depriving TMs the ability to do their thing. The corps are well aware of the danger TMs represent as well, so there is little doubt that they have ways of detecting and dealing with them (albeit not as easily as a normal hacker).

Being a hyper-specialist hacker also doesn't seem to be worth it. Not only would it take a 400 BP Technomancer a LOT of karma to reach the levels of a well-built mundane Hacker, but even when he reaches that point and bypasses it... I don't think it would matter all that much. There comes a point where over specialization is wasted and unnecessary. Honestly, if the runners are up against a system that a 'normal' elite mundane hacker can't handle, then they are fracked anyway. A technomancer in that case probably won't make a huge difference.
And if he DOES, it's because the GM is now tailoring all Matrix challenges to the uber specialized Hackers.... which is not only unrealistic, but very detrimental to any other mundane player who might be interested in hacking, as the challenges that an uber TM requires will flatline them in a micro-second.


As for recommending them to solo players..... um, what? Is there a Shadowrun MMO I'm not aware of? Or did the old Seattle MUX rise from the ashes? (*sigh* I miss the old days there)
Please tell me you don't play by yourself, doing double duty as both player and GM. wink.gif
Mäx
Well if your GM allows it there are rules for converting nuyen to karma, which is a really good for TM:s.
And there are a whole lot of nice echos that allow for nice tricks.
MortVent
solo meaning one on one sessions, 1 player + 1 gm

My TM started with 0 resources and 0 contacts, slightly different disadvantages. Only starting gear was what was bought at creation using the street lifestyle rolled nuyen.

Before I even hooked up with the regular team I had to in effect earn a couple contacts, and move into the shadows from being a lab rat for a triple A (character was freed during a run against the facility, snatched some gear off a dead guard and scavanged some clothing) and being hunted by them.

By the time the character was ready to be a useful teammate she had already earned a semi-decent rep in the matrix, though street wise was realatively unknown (no meat meetings till a little longer into the campaign)

Belvidere
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Jun 29 2010, 03:29 AM) *
I get the idea of being a Karma sink, however the current setup for TMs just seem to take it too far. I think the current awakened characters have a good balance of karma sink, while still getting something out of all the Nuyen they are working so hard for. Honestly, I don't see what use Nuyen is to most Technomancers. Any TM worth his salt could easily Spoof a decent lifestyle, so it's not even like he has to pay for his Soyburgers and Latte.
So why do they even go on Shadowruns at all? Isn't it all for the scratch? (unless you are some kind of masochist adrenal junky freak)
It was my impression that money is balanced as another character advancement method, just like karma. It runs right along side it... so if a character has no use for it, it's like he's getting half the 'XP' as the other players.

I agree that being on the down-low with their hacking is a good thing, but costs way too much. Even a normal hacker can have his commlink implanted somewhere on his body that can't be removed easily, and there are even mundane solutions for depriving TMs the ability to do their thing. The corps are well aware of the danger TMs represent as well, so there is little doubt that they have ways of detecting and dealing with them (albeit not as easily as a normal hacker).

Being a hyper-specialist hacker also doesn't seem to be worth it. Not only would it take a 400 BP Technomancer a LOT of karma to reach the levels of a well-built mundane Hacker, but even when he reaches that point and bypasses it... I don't think it would matter all that much. There comes a point where over specialization is wasted and unnecessary. Honestly, if the runners are up against a system that a 'normal' elite mundane hacker can't handle, then they are fracked anyway. A technomancer in that case probably won't make a huge difference.
And if he DOES, it's because the GM is now tailoring all Matrix challenges to the uber specialized Hackers.... which is not only unrealistic, but very detrimental to any other mundane player who might be interested in hacking, as the challenges that an uber TM requires will flatline them in a micro-second.


As for recommending them to solo players..... um, what? Is there a Shadowrun MMO I'm not aware of? Or did the old Seattle MUX rise from the ashes? (*sigh* I miss the old days there)
Please tell me you don't play by yourself, doing double duty as both player and GM. wink.gif


I've finally made my technomancer face and I was noticing the problems I was going to have with nuyen and nothing to spend it on so I made a way for him to spend it. But it's only going to last so long. I took in debt for all 30 bp and he's trying to open up his own tattoo shop. And my GM is really into micro-managing so I'm actually starting up the business and applying for licenses and whatnot, while scrounging to survive with what cash I have left over. He's actually got a very interesting story. And knowing my GM I'll have that shop up and running for maybe a month and I'm going to step on someones toes and they'll burn it down so then I can sink my funds and time into getting revenge. grinbig.gif
Jaid
technomancers can build up a large selection of malware with cash, or a selection of drones for all purposes, or both (trust me, there isn't much that will suck your bank account dry faster than being a drone rigger).

and i assure you, if you want to be a better hacker than the hacker at chargen, you can be a better hacker. rather disturbingly so.

and on a side note, i highly recommend a free sprite contact. you have access to something it wants (registered sprites), and it has access to all kinds of things that you want (sprite services with no limit to duration and number beyond what you can convince it to offer, cheaper submersion, free sprite powers, cheaper submersion, potential contacts with other technomancer groups, cheaper submersion, cheaper submersion, possible trade partner for certain echos, and cheaper submersion. did i mention cheaper submersion?). depending, you may also wish to have a technomancer group contact. i really can't recommend 0 points in contacts for a technomancer, a free sprite contact is worth every BP.

and on a side note, while you can't PAB-hack your target using resonance trodes, you *can* thread in psychotropic options for your blackout program and give them all kinds of mental problems that lead to them doing what you want. of course, if you do this on a regular basis, nobody will want to hang out with you, but it can do some really ridiculous stuff. it also has many other uses (give corpsec a phobia of shadowrunners, or weapons, or both smile.gif )
MortVent
Well the 0 contacts and resources fit the character well, started out as a lab held TM. Unknown group hit the lab, she escaped in the confusion (rp with her started during the hit) and grabbed some items off a couple guards as she made her way out and into the barrens... made it to a abandoned house that still had some clothing in it to replace her lab flats (nothing special just some worn moth eaten boy jeans and a windbreaker)

So the character was in a lab where they took precautions as they worked on making TMs ... freaks on a leash to the corproation (using old style brainwashing tools... with the only wireless systems being the test nexi for the TMs to practice on individual and as teams)

All data being hard copy courier run to the corp offices for digitizing


course the full character bio was a bit more detailed.. and on my old computer (RIP Desktop)
Jaid
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jun 29 2010, 05:45 PM) *
Well the 0 contacts and resources fit the character well, started out as a lab held TM. Unknown group hit the lab, she escaped in the confusion (rp with her started during the hit) and grabbed some items off a couple guards as she made her way out and into the barrens... made it to a abandoned house that still had some clothing in it to replace her lab flats (nothing special just some worn moth eaten boy jeans and a windbreaker)

So the character was in a lab where they took precautions as they worked on making TMs ... freaks on a leash to the corproation (using old style brainwashing tools... with the only wireless systems being the test nexi for the TMs to practice on individual and as teams)

All data being hard copy courier run to the corp offices for digitizing


course the full character bio was a bit more detailed.. and on my old computer (RIP Desktop)

fair enough. i still can't recommend it as a good plan to go 0 contacts though nyahnyah.gif certain specific contacts are just too good to pass up on.
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