Is the extra cost for customized cyberlimbs (+¥1500 per Attribute point) applied before or after the cost multiplier for improving the limb's grade? The former would seem more in line with the spirit of the rules, but leads to (potentially), a ¥285,000 limb (Base cost ¥15,000, +3 Agility, ¥4500, +3 Body, ¥4500, +3 Strength, 4500 = ¥28,500, deltaware x10 = ¥285,000). My gut reaction is that this is excessively punitive.

I fail to see a problem with that math, deltaware is supposed to be expensive and that human arm is nothin combared to a maxed out troll arm that would cost about 200k more

Yes. I dunno why people think a Troll should be able to get a 'normal' arm for himself as cheaply and easily as a human. It's not fair, it's capitalism.

Spare parts for a Porsche cost more than Yugo or Trabant parts...

(ignoring availability problems )

I've made a bunch of custom cyberlimbs recently, and they come out to be about 30 grand. Buying anything at deltaware is expensive...

There is only on delta-limb (maybe a pair) made specifically for you. This one is stretching the limit. The price is a bargain if you want it.

My next troll will call humans Trabants

Not sure why you could not get a Full Set Delta Limb Replacement (Including the Torso and Head Frames)... What exactly are you trying to say here?

Keep the Faith

He's saying that customised deltaware cyber limbs are one of kind items, so that price is pretty much a bargain.

This is why Deltaware in my game is mostly a Corporate gimmick. My last major Corp NPC had personal assistants who were using synthetic limbs at Deltaware. Looked Human, damned lethal if you crossed them. Checking my notes here, about 2.3 million nuyen worth of implants in each one, per RAW. Null perspiration for a megacorp, naturally, but some gutterpunk mercenary? I scoff, sir!

I could be wrong, but it sounds like Ryu is Tenegar's GM, and he's basically saying...
"In the game, you have the opportunity to get access to a delta clinic and have one (maybe two) cyberlimbs implanted. Take it or leave it, but the price is a bargain."

Meanwhile Tenegar did the math, and realized that once he/she customizes the limb and applies the deltware cost multiplier... it gets a tad expensive. Still a bargain (deltware-wise), but probably a lot more than Tenegar bargained on.


Of course, I could be totally wrong.

And thats still using cheap implants, for example Deltaware Synaptic Booster 3 alone costs a whopping 2,4 million .

Gotcha...

Keep the Faith

I woulf think that it's easier to cram a given strength into a troll-sized limb than an human one - with space less of a premium you can use bulkier systems to save cost. This would apply to a lesser degree to a cyberlimb designed for orks. Dwarves would get the short end of the stick there.

We were playing with the old rules, where Cultured Bioware is automatically considered to be Deltaware.

When bioware was first introduced, it was explained that while most bioware was simply cloned from a Type-O baseline, it was possible to have it grown specifically to your genetic profile, as Cultured Bioware, which used the rules for Deltaware. This was implied to involve growing a clone of you in a tank, so assume the process was both lengthy and expensive. Some mods, mostly involving the brain and nervous system, were so delicate they were only available as Cultured Bioware, and no better version existed.

This limitation did not make it into SR4; Augmentation p127 clearly states that Cultured Bioware is available in Alpha, Beta, and Delta grades.

i would see that more as technology improving the years between the editions making it so that even cultured bioware can be mad more essence friendly.

Wrong? Depends. I´m not a GM right now, and wouldn´t know Tenegar, but deltaware was/is available in my/our games. You just have to work for it. The chance to get deltaware will often come with a means of paying for it...

On page 313 of SR4A, the last sentence under "Cyberware and Bioware Grades" reads, "Note that cyberware accessories must be of the same grade as the implant they are added to." Just to clarify, does the term "cyberware accessories" include everything that could be installed in an implant, i.e., everything with a Capacity cost?

Tanegar, i was just going to point that out.

Cyberlimbs are very poorly worded, sometimes. I believe the -intent- of the rule is to make everything added on super expensive.

But..... Enhancements aren't accessories. Nor are Optimized limbs. There are actually several different categories of stuff you can slap on cyberlimbs - check out Augmentation.

Your mileage may vary.

Except that Enhancements are Add-Ons to Limbs, and as such ADD a certain price to the base limb... now, if you want your limb to be Delta Grade, you add on your Stat/Armor enhancements/customizations to the base limb, and then you pay the multiplier for that Delta Grade Option (after your enhancements have been applied to the Limb itself)... any Other Cpacity specific items must also be the Same Grade, so you must purchase them at the same Grade as the limb that they are installed in... So a Delta Grade Cyberarm will not accept a standard grade Cyberarm Gyromount... you would have to spring for a Delta Grade Gyromount to put in your Delta Grade Arm...

Keep the Faith

In Augmentation, there's a specific category called "Cyberlimb Accessories". I treat that sentence as referring to those accessories.

It's by no means unambiguous, though.



Udoshi and Tanegar were just discussing the actual rules that determine whether or not this is the case. Perhaps you should review the information contained within their posts before making the above assertion.

Keep the Capital Letters to a Maximum

If anything has to be the same grade, it's enhancements and optimizations, etc. The argument *might* be made that the commlink you slot into capacity does not, but I can't see anyone arguing that the Strength increase doesn't.

Thanks for your concern; and yes, I saw the discussion...

Keep the Faith

You could indeed make that argument, but since a Comlink can take up capacity, it must be the same grade as the limb it is installed in, per the rules in the book...

There is a lot of flex in the interpretation if you want to push it a bit, I will admit, but it is not really all that unambiguous to me...

Keep the Faith

You can't? That's interesting.



That's not what the rules in the book actually say, though. Those rules state that "cyberware accessories" must be the same grade as the cyberware into which they're installed. Meaning that one group of items on Aug. p45 (which are specifically listed as accessories) must be the same grade as the implant to which they're added.

The book doesn't mention anything about items that "can take up capacity" being special. It calls out "cyberware accessories" as being special.

The bit you're referring to in Augmentation says "cyberlimb accessories," while SR4A refers to "cyberware accessories." My question is, do things like cybereye add-ons (low-light, thermo, smartlink, etc.) have to be the same grade (and thus apply the same cost multiplier) as the implant they're added to?

One assumes 'yes', but one never 'remembers' to play that way.

Cyberlimbs are a subset of cyberware, so cyberlimb accessories are necessarily cyberware accessories.

But not all cyberware accessories are cyberlimb accessories. I'm referring to the general case, not the specific.

Actually the only thing which 'should' need to be delta grade is the interface between flesh and metal. The rest of the limb beyond that point shouldn't really matter. Rules say otherwise, but many, many rules in SR tend not to make a great deal of sense.

Pheh, as if. If you want to fool the body / aura into thinking a limb is "human" (or simply minimize mechanical stress on the rest of the body) you need to do a lot of work to make the limb balance and move in a natural manner, and so on. With a stock limb, you can get away with simpler joint designs, for example, or making the lower limb a bit bulky.
Also, the to make the "interface" delta grade, you need to have high(er) performance sensors and controllers all through the limb. No point putting a drive by wire system on a jalopy, so to speak.
Making the entire limb more expensive is certainly justifiable. Now, if you wanted to talk about accessories (especially something like a built in comlink), then it gets a bit wonky.

This kind of comments always make me roll eyes... If you dont care/trust what the rules says, why care about entering a rule discussion (not house rules nor proposed rules amendment).

Rules can be flawed but they have the absolute advantage to be the same for everyone, they are the only things that make us all play the same game and thus communicate/comment efficiently. If we dont play by the sames rules then how could we comment/advice peoples ?

The Aura does not go all the way into the arm however. This is shown that you do not lose essence by amputating the arm. You lose essence when someone interfaces a cybernetic arm with your body, thus it is the interface which is the problem. Make that as kind as possible, and have a set of 'modular' arms that all hook up with a couple bolts and some USB 12 connections or something, and you should be good.

This kind of comments always make me roll eyes... If you dont care/trust what the rules says, why care about entering a rule discussion (not house rules nor proposed rules amendment).

The game makers have afterall make modular cyberlimbs which do pretty exactly what I said.

Modular parts have to be deltaware too if the connector is.

Given how semantically troublesome this game can be, I think only cyberware accessories need to be the same grade, and all the modular parts are cyberlimb accessories.

… And that cyberware accessories aren't cyberlimb accessories?

It's a lot more defensible to just say you don't care, than to argue that makes sense.

The game has plenty of instances where equivlent things are treated differently because they have different names, and very different things are treated the same way.
For examples vehicles don't have hardened armor, but there is no functional difference I am aware of between giving a vehicle regular armor and giving one hardened armor. Masking allowing you to look 'mundane' but it doesn't expressly state it allows you to turn an astral form into a simple aura, meaning it would make a duel natured creature appear to have a mundane astral form....

also, just back to the cyber limb accessories thing, who in their right mind would custom design a deltaware jackhammer just for someone with a modular limb? Some items simply don't make sense to come in delta grade.

Yes, but cyberlimbs are manifestly cyberware.

No, many things don't make sense. That's the argument I said was okay. But to argue that limb isn't ware is just silly.

I think the correct action is to say, 'screw it, doesn't make sense, rules unclear anyway'; but acknowledge that you're 'cheating'.

I cant tell if your agreeing with what i said or disagreeing.
From what you wrote it seems you do agree, but then i don't see the point of you writing that long ass sentence in the first place.

I feel somethings need to be bought at the ware of the limb, like strength upgrades, but slotting in a comlink, or jackhammer, not so much.

Then I suppose you won't mind if the Deltagrade discount is reduced or eliminated from ware that has limited interfacing with the nervous system. I mean, bone lacing is bone lacing and you can't improve the interface.

Your position reflects an assumption that Essence is a representation of the impact on your physiological system when Shadowrun is a game of dualities. Just like the physical is reflected on the astral, and to a degree, vice-versa, Essence cannot be viewed as one half of that dual nature.

I have no issue saying your Delta arm can have standard grade mods. I also have no issue charging Essence loss based upon the lowest grade component in your cyberware.

Actually my problem with the bone lacing is because its installed via nanites, and there is no real 'surgery' to install it persay, I think it should be dirt cheep to begin with. You are correct in assuming I don't feel it should come in 'grades' but then again, titanium coated on calcium phosphate is bio-invisible, and you body should be completely unable to recognize its there, so unless human spirits are allergic to titanium, there is no reason for it to have the essence cost it does.


My position reflects the fact that the essence system in SR is terribly broken, and I do not mean in any munchkin sense of the word. I mean in that there is no internally consistent explanation for how it works which does not rely on the phrase 'its magic'.


I too have no issue allowing someone to fit any grade of mod into a cyber limb they want. There may be interface issues and the like, but it should be 'possible'.

We've always played it such that any accessory for any piece of cyberware must match the grade of the base unit of cyberware. So if you have Delta eyes, your eye accessories must be delta as well.

As for Bone lacing... it changes the aura because it's implanted into the body. It's sufficiently invasive that it registers in your Aura. That's what Essence is... a metric to measure the overall changes to your aura.

Besides, your body is the physical representation of your astral self / aura. Changes made to one affect the other.

Should the prices for bone lacing change? That's a different discussion. But having them present is perfectly valid.

Statements like this beg the question, of what happened before the awakening? Since no one had auras because there was no magic to generate them?

Says who? Just because an even higher percentage of the populace lacked the ability to interact and perceive them, does not mean that they were not present.

Immortal Elves
Reiki / faith healers
Fortune tellers
That bad give you get when you walk into certain areas...
These could all possibly be examples of aura interaction and/or sensitivity pre-awakening. Well, in the case of IEs, during the fifth world, I don't know how much of their Adept abilities they retained from the fourth world.

Given Faith healers, Fortune tellers, and that bad feeling, all have rational non supernatural explanations, I don't really see their existence in the 5th world proves much of anything. I understand the game wants some form of balancing mechanic to keep the total amount of cyber ware down, but I just don't think saying your soul gets emo and leaves is a terribly good one. Using essence as a measure of how 'accurately' one's body reflects their spirit has a whole host of problems including stagnating biological adaptation, and preventing organ and tissue cloning.

That's likely because the literal explanation is that it is, in fact, magic. The backstory and fluff all handwave Essence loss as damage to the astral presence of a living thing, without which it cannot survive. To the best of my knowledge, it has always been tied more to degree of inhumanity then to medical impact. It is not science, it is magic.

Of course, as players, we can look behind the curtain at *why* Essence loss is in place - it is a deliberate power cap on cyborg characters. More specifically, with cyberware grades, it allows that cap to be overcome to a degree with sufficient money. RAW, that cap is in place; you're welcome to houserule around it if you want.

If you dismiss Immortal Elves, and various potential expressions pre-6th world expressions of magic, then it is not a wonder why Essence doesn't make sense.


Not really. Mana/the Aura interacts on the genetic level. (Source Augmentation?) Given the awakened creatures that appeared, I would say, it accelerates biological adaptation, but that could simply be re-emergence of pre-existing awakened variations. And tissue cloning is not an issue as that explicitly is not an impact on Essence.

The unthought of impact of essence scores however is that no organism can now undergo any significant level of genetic change. In effect evolution becomes impossible. Bacteria can not develop immunities to antibiotics because doing to would cost them enough essence to kill them. Same for viruses and anti-viral medications. That's just the microscopic level. Vitas could never have come about, and most of the biological agents which the game freely admits exist could not. Tissue could not be cloned, nor could bioware be engineered. Having essence relate how closely your body matches its ideal prototype also falls flat on its face when dealing with severe injury. You do not lose essence if I cut both your legs off, but you do for having cyber limbs attached. Having body parts missing or malformed because of surgery, birth defect, injury or any other number of reasons does seems to effect your essence. 'Fixing' these problems however does. The a child who was deformed due to a congenital birth defect has 6 essence, dispite the fact his body does not match his genetics or his idealized 'template', another child, who's parents were engineered, and who's body DOES match his genetics, does not have 6 essence.