A player of mine had a question for me and I couldn't come up with a solid answer, so I'm hoping someone here can answer it.

Can Spell Defense or Shielding be used to block an attempt to Dispel a sustained spell?

The description states that to shield against Sorcery, you use the Force of the spell as the TN, but Dispelling has no real force, per se.

I think my player might be getting concerned that I'll just keep attacking his sustained spells from the astral...

Opinions?

SR13

Nope, can't shield against a Dispelling. Sorry.

I'm not sure what you mean by attacking his sustained spells from the astral. An astral form can not use Astral Combat against a sustained spell.

As for dispelling from Astral, spells are cast on either the physical plane or astral plane, and to Dispell a sustained spell you must be on the same plane as the spell (Dispelling, SR3.184, 2nd sentence). Most sustained spells in my experience are on the physical plane.

An astral form can attack an active sustaining focus, with astral combat or with a mana spell that does physical damage (SR3.176 Astral Objects). If astral combat is used, the focus has a Karma Pool. If a mana spell is used the bonder of the focus can give it Spell Defense dice no matter where he is.

The rules for astral barriers are slightly different from what I describe above.

a spell cast on the physical world can be dispelled from astral in my view as all spells are dual natured from what i recall.

shielding is a advanced for of spell defence and therefor cant help agaisnt anything other then incomeing spells.

you can take out a spell from astral space, its a astral object with a known force. most likley it does (force)M damage...

gah, did i realy memorize the sr2 rules that solid?

grr, why did they have to change all the nice astral wrinkles

one thing i want to toss at you tho, what plane is a spell cast by a astraly perciving (damn, my spelling stinks) mage? does it depend on target? if so, target a dualnatured being

i dont undersntad why they ripped out the ability to attack a spell, the the dualnaturedness of the spells. it had nothing to do with grounding, that was connected to foci, not spells.

and i keep reading spells as being dual natured. man i hate unlearning stuff i have learned...

so basicly what you are saying is that the spell shares status with the target. so if a wizard casts armor and then starts to look into the astral any purelyastral being can take down the spell while if he didnt they cant touch it?
to me thats twisted or broken logic

im guessing that they removed it so that they didnt have to explain the grounding system yet again (a very messy part of magic inSR2). but it leave me wondering if they left some holes in the logic. or is it just the me like so many other people on this board are so used to SR2 magic that the totaly new logic of sr3 magic have partly gone past us?

as im thinking about it i see now that the mana/physical split have a new meaning in sr3, something i never picked up on before. the real mindtwister is the fact that a mana based spell works on both the physical and astral plane (but not at the same time) but a physical spell only works on the physical plane. this is never in my view clearly layed out in the text, its just hinted at. or i cant realy find a place that spell it out like this, i can only find hints about it after reading over the entire magic chapter.

im haveing to rethink the entire magic deal here, the changes have been so big but yet so well masked in the old trapping of sr2 style entrys that i didnt pick upon it before now...

No, the armour spell is a physical spell, it can only be cast in, and only exists in the physical plane, same goes for any physical spell. Mana spells on the other hand can exist in either the physical or astral plane, which one depends on which plane the spell is affecting, ie a mundane on the physical plane or a spirit entirely in astral. Dual natured spells such as spirit and spell barrier exist on both planes, and can be dispelled from either.

then there is a breatch of logic as the text clearlysay that no spell can be dualnatured but yet the astral barrier spell is suppose to be just that?

Astral Barrier is not a dual natured spell, it's a barrier that only exists on the astral. I suppose Spirit Barrier could qualify as being purely astral too, since spirits can only be astral or dual natured. Spell Barrier and Spell Shield on the other hand must be dual natured as the spell will block spells on either plane.

i guess depending on where the spell came from and where the barrier spell was cast (as in at what plane the caster was one at the moment). or maybe it follows the targets status.

if not then they are basicly breaking theyre won logic as now the spell barrier may have worked nicely as dualnatured before but now they are saying that its either or, not both. but then they turn around and produce a spell that should work on both sides at ones.

so your saying that a astraly projecting mage will be able to cast a spell barrier spell around a physical team and have it protect them bytargeting the same spot on the astral?

Yeah, just like an astral barrier would help protect them from spells.


It's actually a good answer to this question, too. If you want to dispel a physical character from the astral, surround them with an astral barrier and let them walk through it. Problem solved!

zazen, the funny thing is that the spell barrier is the only known sr3 barrier spell that works both on the astral and the physical plane. and its not realy a barrier, its more like a distortion field for magic going past it...

so basicly im doing a total rethink on how i see magic in shadowrun after this thread...

I had always thought that all spells were visible from the astral plane, considering all spells require mana to create...

Hmmm, that throws a wrench in my GM book of dirty tricks... Anyone got a canon reference on this in either case? My books are at home and I'm at work...

But the consensus is that dispelling cannot be blocked, right? Basically, cast it at a high enough level that it can't be easily dispelled...

SR13

SR13, yes, spells are normally visible from the astral plane. Yes, dispelling cannot be blocked.

hobgoblin, yes, that Spell Barrier exists on both planes seems to be unique to that spell.

well masking at a high level just became even more usefull
and remind me to add spell shield/barrier to my list of must have spells

grr, every time i look at the sr3 magic rules i find that i must forget what i thought i knew about magic in shadowrun. this will take a very long time. i just hope sr4 dont pull a similar move. learning the new stuff about combat was easy compared to this as it basicly changes the laws of nature it allso make a magican that mutch more dangerus i think (not compleatly sure tho)...