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MortVent
I was looking at my technomancers and realized it is just barely possible to make one that can get by with all legal gear, and a little bit stashed at a locker somewhere (tag eraser, etc)

I can see it easily for pure matrix specialists for sure... but faces and some others might get away with it too (smugglers with perfromance mods and nothing combat related)
Karoline
Except all hacking programs are restricted. Most also have hot sim modified, which is forbidden if I recall. Other than that they're fairly good.
MortVent
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 3 2010, 09:10 PM) *
Except all hacking programs are restricted. Most also have hot sim modified, which is forbidden if I recall. Other than that they're fairly good.


Well I was looking at my TMs, and I imagine some mages can get past the rules too..

Pretty much Mages and TMs are able to walk in and out of anywhere with full abilies..
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 3 2010, 10:11 PM) *
Well I was looking at my TMs, and I imagine some mages can get past the rules too..

Pretty much Mages and TMs are able to walk in and out of anywhere with full abilies..


not so much. If a TM was identified, he could have to wear a headjammer before entering a place. And there are similar manatech for mages.
Of course I'm discussing things like a meeting with a Mr. J who is extra cautious about his security. But yeah, infiltrating as a "civilian" iside a facility, TM's and mages can do it pretty much with all his abilities intact.
Yerameyahu
Mages certainly have force-related licensing.

Why would anyone want to play a 'legal' character? smile.gif
MortVent
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 3 2010, 10:56 PM) *
Mages certainly have force-related licensing.

Why would anyone want to play a 'legal' character? smile.gif


only in regards to foci, but most of my mages don't use them... odd I know. And spells and spirits are not somthing that can be known till used (aka till ya drop a hellblast that turns half of downtown into ash... none know you can)

As fr legal, nothing like being able to blend into the crowd and pass all checkpoints as normal corp citizen 19939343

Plus the character in question would have no probelm pointing at the big dufus of a street sam and doing the poor lost waif being abused by the evil shadowrunners... (SIN and under 16 )
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 3 2010, 08:56 PM) *
Mages certainly have force-related licensing.

Why would anyone want to play a 'legal' character? smile.gif


Well, if you are using gear that is completely legal, then you do not ever have to worry about being detained by the authorities for having illegal equipment.

I think that this might be a difficult task, but there you go... it would be interesting to see if you could actually get away with that... wobble.gif

Keep the faith
MortVent
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 3 2010, 11:08 PM) *
Well, if you are using gear that is completely legal, then you do not ever have to worry about being detained by the authorities for having illegal equipment.

I think that this might be a difficult task, but there you go... it would be interesting to see if you could actually get away with that... wobble.gif

Keep the faith


Improvise (the improvised weapon tables are fun for that... especially for females... had a physad kill a troll with a spork once..)

Pepper punch gas grenades 25 works wonders and street legal
Splash grenades with various compounds are fun too (usually carry a couple with CC in them for destroying evidence)
Tasers are fairly legal
Ornate staffs, not just for mages

etc
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 3 2010, 09:07 PM) *
only in regards to foci, but most of my mages don't use them... odd I know. And spells and spirits are not somthing that can be known till used (aka till ya drop a hellblast that turns half of downtown into ash... none know you can)

As fr legal, nothing like being able to blend into the crowd and pass all checkpoints as normal corp citizen 19939343

Plus the character in question would have no probelm pointing at the big dufus of a street sam and doing the poor lost waif being abused by the evil shadowrunners... (SIN and under 16 )


Actually... A Mage's Spells are also licensed, as Combat Spell Formulaes (and by extent the spell itself) are Forbidden, and the remaining are Restricted. See, a normal law abiding citizen who registers their abilities as a mage has nothing to fear, but if you are a Shadowrunner and a Mage, well, I am guessing you do not have a Real SIN, so you are breaking the law everytime you cast a spell... even Health ones.

Keep the Faith
Dread Moores
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 3 2010, 11:56 PM) *
Actually... A Msge's Spells are also licensed, as Combat Spell Formulaes (and by extent the spell itself) are Forbidden, and the remaining are Restricted. See, a normal law abiding citizen who registers their abilities as a mage has nothing to fear, but if you are a Shadowrunner and a Mage, well, I am guessing you do not have a Real SIN, so you are breaking the law everytime you cast a spell... even Health ones.

Keep the Faith


That's one of the sillier legal quagmires of SR. The idea that the courts and law enforcement have the time, resources, and inclination to care about what force a spell is at. Spells legality should have been handled by spell type, rather than force. There's really no need whatsoever for an average citizen to cast fireball. Ever. If you've got a special effects mage or something of the sort, then a license could be had. Magic and legality are in serious need of an overhaul.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Jul 3 2010, 10:04 PM) *
That's one of the sillier legal quagmires of SR. The idea that the courts and law enforcement have the time, resources, and inclination to care about what force a spell is at. Spells legality should have been handled by spell type, rather than force. There's really no need whatsoever for an average citizen to cast fireball. Ever. If you've got a special effects mage or something of the sort, then a license could be had. Magic and legality are in serious need of an overhaul.


BUT, It is handled by Spell Type and Not Force... SR4 has no innate Force for Spells... As such, the 5 categories have legalities attached to them... Combat Spells are Forbidden, while the others are Restricted. And I disagree... there is really no need for an overhaul to the legalities of the Magic System of SR4A...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Force only affects Availability, right? That's different. smile.gif Sorry if my mis-statement threw anyone off.
Cain
Force doesn't affect anything, legally speaking. Once you know a spell, you can cast it at any Force you can reach. So, security has no way of knowing what spells you can cast, let alone what force you can/are willing to cast them at.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 3 2010, 06:10 PM) *
Except all hacking programs are restricted. Most also have hot sim modified, which is forbidden if I recall. Other than that they're fairly good.


You.... COULD, technically, get around this by taking Intuitive Hacking(ai emulate), and a Software Programming Suite 5. This actually works, cuz you have the software skill, and thus aren't defaulting - but you seriously need to pump your Software test to make it useful. Still, it is a great way to fluff out a balls-to-the-walls hack on the fly hacker.

And, really, with encryption and non-wifi implants on your PAN, its pretty easy to keep people from seeing all your nasty list of hidden hacktools.

For a legal hacker, you can actually get some surprisingly good drone backup. The only restricted drones in the core book are the Steel Lynx and the Crashcart Autodoc. What this means is a doberman comes with a gun, and isn't illegal or restricted at all. If you're careful what you put on it, and how you modify it, it can be legal once you're done too. Same goes for Rotodrones too, because flying drones are ace. Start with tasers(even darts are straight legel) and laser sights. In terms of sensors, you pretty much have your choice - the only illegal stuff, really, are Ultrawideband Radar, Smartlinks, Cyberware Scanners, MAD scanners, laser microphones, NLJD's and, oddly, radio signal scanners.

Looked at this a while ago. Its not too hard at all. Invest in the locksmith skill and a toolkit, though - without autopickers and sequencers, you'll need it.

Even with implants, you can build half a sam with CyberLimbs(armor, oddly, isn't restricted, though the statboosts are). Eyes, ears, and jacks are good. Both bone density and reflex recorders are legal too. Platelet factories are legal, but sadly the trauma damper isn't. All the good nanoware's cleared. Orthoskin may be restricted - but Smartskin isn't.

About the only thing you don't get easily are extra passes, and that does suck. Adept, TM, or a high edge seems the easiest way to fix that.
Yerameyahu
So… you'll be an awful, awful runner. smile.gif But we knew that. It does throw some of the funny things about the legality rules into stark relief.
Udoshi
Sez who?

You can be a five pass hacker with completely legal ware, and if that's the role on your team, then you're pretty good at it.
Okay, sure, the hotsim unit IS restricted. Buut it looks just like a regular sim unit, so its kinda hard to tell the difference. If you're worried about it, you can always use an easily-ditchable external one.
Ol' Scratch
I don't understand the obsession some people around here have about this topic. It's like freaking out that someone might notice you have a pair of cybereyes or something. As long as you don't walk down Main Street dressed like you're ready for a war, there's zero to worry about. And if you are worried about it, just get a dirt-cheap license for those Restricted items you have and link them to one of your better fake SINs. If they make sense for someone with that fake SIN to possession (say, a freelance security expert, bodyguard, magic professor, whatever), you have little to nothing to worry about.

Just gear yourself like a smart person would. Don't walk into a police station with a Panther strapped to your back.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 4 2010, 06:50 PM) *
Sez who?

You can be a five pass hacker with completely legal ware, and if that's the role on your team, then you're pretty good at it.
Okay, sure, the hotsim unit IS restricted. Buut it looks just like a regular sim unit, so its kinda hard to tell the difference. If you're worried about it, you can always use an easily-ditchable external one.


But i you are using legally registered programs, than they would leave easily traceable digital fingerprints that will lead to yout legal SIN. If you just hacked a corp, they will grab you or ask Lone Star or wahteer using legal grounds for this and then you are screwed.
Mages can be totally legal, so TM's (the ones that hide the fact they are TM's) but hackers are screwed as everybody else.
MortVent
Sams can sorta get around it... by going pure bioware. it's tricky but doable where it's not detectable.

But the basic idea is the corp citizens don't normally have licenses for the gear a shadowrunner would have... and if one wanted to pretend to be a corp drone as a hideout/identity it would behove them to find legal alternatives to the gear they normally have.

Secondary choices are hidden/disquised gear (aka commlinks built into a functional biomonitor unit with a skinlink and skinlinked trodes or datajack for example)
Udoshi
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 4 2010, 03:20 PM) *
But i you are using legally registered programs, than they would leave easily traceable digital fingerprints that will lead to yout legal SIN. If you just hacked a corp, they will grab you or ask Lone Star or wahteer using legal grounds for this and then you are screwed.
Mages can be totally legal, so TM's (the ones that hide the fact they are TM's) but hackers are screwed as everybody else.


If you're using the stock, read-as-written degredation, yes, thats right. However, in games that aren't using unwired, that's not a problem.
For the record, we've tossed SOTA rolls out in my game, because it was too much of a hastle.

However, you can pretty easily use pirated software. More importantly, you can take Black Market Pipeline(pirated softwares), and your entire team will love you for it. Not only can you get any pirated soft at 10% market value, you can haggle over it at 3 extra dice. Additionally, they'll always -buy- that product from you, which means you can pretty easily sustain your stolen program habit by edge/rush job/coding a new common use program each month, and selling it.

A unique, no-bugs, not-used analyze 4 would go for 600 nuyen. Its not used, so the 35% doesn't apply. It'll also net you an effective 4000NY in program patches for your pirated stuff through your contact. If you can somehow make a Hacking program above rating 4, which would need eight hits, putting the price at Rating x 1000Y, you should be able to sustain your pirated program habit pretty easily. Or you could just crack the programs off of commlinks you loot. 1 hour extended tests are much easier to do in downtime.
And, hey, if you need to ditch all your programs cause someone's building a data profile on you, ditchem all and buy a completely different brand, cheap.
Mister Book
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 4 2010, 01:56 AM) *
I was looking at my technomancers and realized it is just barely possible to make one that can get by with all legal gear, and a little bit stashed at a locker somewhere (tag eraser, etc)

I can see it easily for pure matrix specialists for sure... but faces and some others might get away with it too (smugglers with perfromance mods and nothing combat related)


Show us the build? wink.gif
MortVent
QUOTE (Mister Book @ Jul 4 2010, 10:30 PM) *
Show us the build? wink.gif


Quick tone down of the char I am using (600bp prime runner, this is a 400bp version): Basics is a translator/researcher skill set (hence hacking and face skills). The 600bp one is just better due to the starting costs of a TM (not much but enough to make her a bit better all around, though with less in gear and contacts.. but pts added to knowledge skills and more advantages [linguist was a no-brainer]). Over time, with this build mainly focus on those core skills and add: pilot skills [ground, maybe aircraft and anthro], dodge, unarmed combat, clubs [easier to improvise with]. This is the kind of character type that needs some combat skills, but only as a last resort... their focus is the matrix and interaction with words and not bullets. First thing at start would be to take time to rp gaining registered sprites vs buying them at creation. Like all technomancers they start out a bit weak in skills and abilites.

ELF
B 3,A 3, R 3, S 2, C 5, I 5,L 5, W 5
Resonace: 5
Edge: 1

Adv: Technomancer(5), Natural Hardening (10)
Dis: Alergy- Mild, Common(pollutants, 10);Phobia - Moderate, Uncommon (Confinement, 10), SINner(5), Prejudice - Outspoken, Specific (Shadowrunners, 10)

Active Skills:
Cracking Group 3
Electronics Group 3
Ettiguete 3
Perception 3
Tasking Group 3

Knowledge Skills:
Corp Politics 3
Matrix Theory 3
Psychology 3
Security Systems 3
Sprites 3
Lg - English N
Lg - Cantonese 3
Lg - French 3
Lg - Japanses 3
Lg - Mandrian 3
Lg - Russian 3

Complex Forms:
Analyze 3
Armor 3
Attack 3
Browse 3
Decrypt 3
Edit 3
Explot 3
Scan 3
Spoof 3
Stealth 3

Contacts: Fixer 3/1

10k in gear:
2mth Low Lifestyle
novatech airwave w/Iris Orb OS (3/3/3/3)
*std sim module
*Basic + suite (Analyze 3, Browse 3, Command 1,Edit 3)
* Encrypt 3 , Scan 3
AR Gloves
Biometric Reader (DNA - Hair)
Subvocal Microphone
Trodes
4 VR Games
Wall Space ARE Software
Virtual Pet ARE Software [something annoyingly cute enough to gag a troll sami]
Glasses, rating 2 W/ Image Link, Flare Compensation
Resperator, rating 3
Medkit, rating 3
Defiance Super Shock Taser W/Concealed Holster, 20 taser darts
Flash-Pak
5 Pepper Punch Canisters (1 dose each)
Lined Coat
2 Stimulant Patchs, rating 6
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 4 2010, 08:04 PM) *
If you're using the stock, read-as-written degredation, yes, thats right. However, in games that aren't using unwired, that's not a problem.
For the record, we've tossed SOTA rolls out in my game, because it was too much of a hastle.


The OP was talking about completey legal runners. If you build a hacker that uses pirated sfotware then it is not legal, is it?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 4 2010, 04:20 PM) *
But i you are using legally registered programs, than they would leave easily traceable digital fingerprints that will lead to yout legal SIN. If you just hacked a corp, they will grab you or ask Lone Star or wahteer using legal grounds for this and then you are screwed.
Mages can be totally legal, so TM's (the ones that hide the fact they are TM's) but hackers are screwed as everybody else.


Mages cannot be totally legal because ALL of their Spells are Restricred or Forbidden... first time a Shadowrunner mage casts a spell against someone he has broken the law, and will possibly be tracked down just like the Hacker... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 5 2010, 01:08 PM) *
Mages cannot be totally legal because ALL of their Spells are Restricred or Forbidden... first time a Shadowrunner mage casts a spell against someone he has broken the law, and will possibly be tracked down just like the Hacker... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith


The spells that are restricted he can have a license for them. Let's say you end up breaking into a fight inside a restaurant and starts slinging spells left and right to kil/disable your attackers and no civilian gets hurt. If you have a license and a SIN, when the LS or KE arrives, you could show them and claim self-defense. Of course this could lead to investigations, being called to testify on court, et cetera, but you could do it legally.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 5 2010, 10:55 AM) *
The spells that are restricted he can have a license for them. Let's say you end up breaking into a fight inside a restaurant and starts slinging spells left and right to kil/disable your attackers and no civilian gets hurt. If you have a license and a SIN, when the LS or KE arrives, you could show them and claim self-defense. Of course this could lead to investigations, being called to testify on court, et cetera, but you could do it legally.


Sure, in that regard you are correct... However, it is very hard to claim self defense when it is you who are attacking the Lone Star Guards, at the facility that you are breaking into, to obtain the prototype device, that the Johnson has hired you to obtain... in this case, you are all sorts of illegal... It is after all a game where you are playing criminals... why someone would try to stay within legality is obvious (can't be harrassed for having illegal equipment if you are not carying any after all), but it completely breaks down once you actually start performing those jobs you have been hired to perform (No amount of Licensing is going to save you at that point, unless you are the Lone Star Cop in the above scenario). wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Ol' Scratch
Yeah, and if you did the same thing with perfectly legal gear, you're screwed, too.

Licenses and legal gear only matter if you get stopped on the street. It doesn't mean jack squat if you're caught using it while being a criminal. Which, again, points back to my last post on the topic. This obsession for purely legal gear is silly and pointless.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 5 2010, 11:53 AM) *
Yeah, and if you did the same thing with perfectly legal gear, you're screwed, too.

Licenses and legal gear only matter if you get stopped on the street. It doesn't mean jack squat if you're caught using it while being a criminal.


This is also very true... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Mesh
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 3 2010, 11:07 PM) *
Plus the character in question would have no probelm pointing at the big dufus of a street sam and doing the poor lost waif being abused by the evil shadowrunners... (SIN and under 16 )

I've seen people play some real psychopaths, but you are one hardcore sick b@stard, Mort: Doing a waif while pointing at a street sam like he's next? That's next level fragged up, man. Real cajones...

Hmmmm, either that or I read your post wrong. You might want to work on your narrative a little more.

Mesh
MortVent
QUOTE (Mesh @ Jul 5 2010, 01:57 PM) *
I've seen people play some real psychopaths, but you are one hardcore sick b@stard, Mort: Doing a waif while pointing at a street sam like he's next? That's next level fragged up, man. Real cajones...

Hmmmm, either that or I read your post wrong. You might want to work on your narrative a little more.

Mesh

More she is the one acting all poor and innocent waif beign abused by the shadowrunners... till the guards move between them and her...

then it turns nasty... got to remember this is the same TM that hid a MGL 6 under her dress for a run... and 2 the next time when told not to bring 'A' grenade launcher... and then was forbidden to wear a dress on a run after pulling two HK urban fighter pistols while the sami was dealing with just a elan...

Mesh
I knew I should have put a winkmoticon at the end of that post. Oh well.

Mesh
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 5 2010, 02:53 PM) *
Yeah, and if you did the same thing with perfectly legal gear, you're screwed, too.

Licenses and legal gear only matter if you get stopped on the street. It doesn't mean jack squat if you're caught using it while being a criminal. Which, again, points back to my last post on the topic. This obsession for purely legal gear is silly and pointless.


Well, I'll agree with you there. I'm just talking about what was proposed in this thread. Because, afterall, if you have a license for a weapon, theoretically its informations about gunprint, etc could be accessed in some database and this means you shouldn't shoot with that gun in runs to begin with.
Ol' Scratch
That's why you either get fake licenses or keep that gear out of sight so that it rarely if ever comes up. Again: Play smart. You're playing a professional criminal. They should know all this stuff by default.
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