In the BBB and other Canon references, a person's astral signature can be used as evidence in a court of law, how?

Are all the members of the jury able to perceive astrally?
Can the judge perceive astrally?
Would it be legal to allow anyone who can perceive astrally make use of that during a trial?
Just how does one register their signature with Lone Star in Seattle to obtain a permit for a force 4 heal spell?

To my knowledge astral signatures are not perceptable to technology, so there is no way to objectively display that information for all to see, which means almost any astral evidence would be useless, or contestable as conjecture, as it cannot be displayed to the average person (which is what is striven for in jury selection, at least that's what they are supposed to strive for).

The Jury doesn't have to perceive astrally. There are probably artist renderings of the astral signature made by two or more officially recognized astral perceiving people. (I'm assuming one hired by the defence and one hired by the prosecutor.)

Then they can show their renderings to allow all non-awakened in the court room to be able to observe the signature while various experts break it down and explain what it means.

Finally, a real use for magical artistic ability.

[EDIT] The hardcore renderers could use illusion spells to make a more realistic looking signature. However, the judge might not allow them inside the court room, which has protection against outside magical intrusion that might throw a case.[/EDIT]

I think it might fall under jury of peers... in a case with magic as it's focus, it could be argued that the only peers would have to be magically active themselves...

-Mike R.

But, awakened people only represent less than 1% of the populous. it would be hard to find 12 un-biased individuals. Remember, lawyers want someone they can manipulate in the courtroom, not just someone who doesn't outright hate their client.

the awakened are notoriously strong willed.

It would be through the use of expert witnesses. A police magician (or several) would have assensed the signature in question and the suspect then testify that they are the same.

Personally I don't think it should be possible to transmit knowledge of a signature except in general terms, meaning not enough to describe a fairly ordinary persons signature to another. Even if it was it would not matter in most cases because the astral signature of a spell or conjuration is gone long before the trial. For a bonded focus, anchored/quickened spell, controlled elemental kept alive until trial (maybe???), ward, etc more witnesses could be called to compare the signatures.

The problem with professional witnesses in this case is that depending on how many successes the witness got in the assense test, they may come up with conflicting information. Then there is karma expenditure to buy off target successes, etc.

I'd agree with Nikoli. It's simply not feasible for the courts to search around for such a group of people, and it's no more a valid argument than saying I, as a college educated man should be judged only by people with a college education. The judge, with very few exceptions, won't be magically active either. You might have magically active expert witnesses in high level cases, but I suspect that aura reading will be considered inadmissable for anything other than proof of identity. Even if one's aura suggest an emotional state, I don't think they'd accept it as evidence any more than they'd accept lie detector tests.

Witnesses, even expert witnesses, make mistakes today. It really isn't any different. Just a variety of eyewitness testimony.

It isn't hard to get a ton of dice for astral perception by the rules. 6 for intelligence, 6 complementary for aura reading (or 3 if you like to roll those the easy way), initiates get thier astral pool dice. Anyhow you don't need to be an ubermage to get 11 or so.

Maybe they (the forensics magicians) could design up a spell that preserves astral signatures?

Again though, a good defense lawyer can say that there is no conclusive proof that what is shown is nothing more than illusion, meant to portray their client negatively.

Exactly as they do with witness testimony today.

True, what I'm trrying to figure out is, how can there be a legal precedent for evidense that cannot be shown to any person objectively?

Yes. Eyewitness testimony.

Only the eyewitness saw whatever they are testifying about. Nobody else can see it. Thier testimony is the evidence. Quite often police officers are eyewitnesses, for example.

Psychological expert testimony is another example. The expert usually testifies as to thier opinion of some persons mental state based on interviews with that person.

eye witness accounts are not the only evidence used usually and has the basis to be backed up with other evidence like photographs, recordings, other eye witnesses, and the nice thing about expert witness testimony is that any person can choose to learn that skill and perform their own assessment, but not just anyone can learn to perceive astrally.
I'm just feel that astral evidence should not be presented as the next DNA.

testimoney doesn't have to be objective.

the evidence would be normal evidence, it would just be interpreted by a mage for either side...

ex:
scorched body armour.
modern forensice could tell what temperature, how long...
Magical forensics couls say approx force (maybe) astral sig is similar to this guy, or similar to the other peices of evidence.
Police Mage files report after incident describing astral sig, even if it is only in his own terms he can later be called as witness and positively ID the aura later.

defence can call it's own witnesses and cross examine.

no different than todays evidence and procedures.

-Mike R.

P.S. if there were a special court for purely magical crimes, I could see jury of peers being all magically active. even at 1% there would be a large enough population to get a jury in most major areas. and it would only be nessasary in purely magical crimes, (like mind probe charges) where the evidence is totally magical in nature.

Good point, I had not thought of that. Of course, if the accused can initiate and change their magical sig in time, the prosecution is screwed.

Let me rephrase my original statement...

I believe that they would accept the views of the investigators about how the person was feeling at the time of the crime, that works like eye witness accounts (and psychological profiling). However, they probably would NOT allow the admission of evidence in regards to the emotional state of the person while in the custody of the police gathered from assensing like that, for the same reason they don't admit lie detectors. I remember reading somewhere that mind probe isn't allowed, I'm not sure about spells like detect lie, but it seems like that's probably not admissable for questioning the suspect.

No, but I could see a judge casting that spell before the case is called.

Lots of people are convicted on eyewitness testimony from one person alone. Some of them wrongly.

If you don't want it to be the next dna don't make it the next dna. Maybe make it the next psycological expert testimony. Perhaps many people don't have much faith in it so it rarely can stand alone. People refuse to beleive DNA evidence in court sometimes.

Besides Shadowrun is a dystopian future. If anything the idea that astral signature testimony is being used in court to falsly convict or exonerate suspects as corruption dictates fits the universe better than it being an accurate and reliable technique.

Fair enough.

Now on to how a mage registers their spells...

even that could be adressed by a smart prosecutor. all you have to do is establish that the perp at one time had that signature and that it is unique. so If I have evidence from his home that he has cast spells on (levitate on the remote) than I can establish that his sig. was at one time the same... not foolproof, so I bet this wouldn't be the primary evidence in a case, but it would be good evidence in addition to other evidence.

-Mike R.

i figured they went down to the courthouse and filled out some massive paperwork, possibly cast it in front of a qualified examiner, than paid the fee and was registered...

-Mike R.

hrm
So, what happens when that examiner dies?

the examiner is just there to verify the spell you claim to be casting has the desired effect, so you don't go in and get a heal 4 permit and then go around casting heal 6 claiming that it's heal 4, basically a check to make sure you really can cast the spell you are getting permitted for. to prevent fraud/fake permits.

edit;
admittadly this is my own way of dealing with it and not at all canon.

Though why they would want to disallow someone to have a heal 6 is beyond me. even healing criminals means yuou have a better chance of them surviving till prosecution.

I just had to bring up my own little court mishap my decker had, and if you just want to go free this may work, or get you the chair. My decker almost pulled this off, completely threw the GM so he would let it go with a really high open test, like 38 or something (he actually had the "conspiracy theories" knowledge skill). I failed, but rolled something like a 19.

"It is a well known fact that to be a judge in the greater Seattle area you must be at 5th degree free-mason. If utter the word "tublicain" in his/her presence you have acknowledged that you know who they are and they must dismiss all charges and go to a cave in the woods and paddle themselves for 3 days."

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Shooting is not too good for my enemies.

ROFL

The problem is that you can honestly go around casting Heal 4 when you've really got Heal 6.

~J

Why would they be concerned about you getting a permit for something you can't do? As long as you have paid the costs and gone through the background check, you should be able to get a permit for any spell you plan to learn. Since the permits are SIN linked, it will take as much effort to transpose the permit to another person as it does to fake a SIN with such a permit.

Well, depends on the reason for the permit. If you're getting a permit as a DocWagon EMT, they're gonna want to make sure you can really cast the Heal spell you claim to be able to so you don't present your permit and say "see? I can heal. Pay me more." when you really don't know the spell.

~J

additionally it's a beuracracy. why does it matter if you can heal 4 or heal 6, cause they charge a different rate for each permit... does it make sence, no. would they take you to court over the difference, probably not, would they use it to tack on additional charges if you already did something illegal, you betcha!

-Mike R.

I have to agree with Fahr, permits on spells are simply big government. It's like an unregistered blackbelt today. They are legally lethal weapons in some states and therefore need to register. If someone doesn't register that they are a lethal weapon will any known government today prosicute? No.

As for heal spells, people would simply laugh at you at the permit office most likely. "You are asking if you need a permit to do what?"

Given the restrictions on performing medical procedures, I'm hardly surprised. You could probably get away with using an unlicensed Heal or Treat or similar spell in an emergency under the Good Samaritan laws, but in general Healing people without a review to make sure that your Heal spell actually does everything properly is a no-no. What if you don't clean the wound and your version of Heal heals the skin first? Nasty infections.

~J

well in my games, I would say teh restrictions on heal spells are non-enforced. Meaning its teh law, but nobody follows it or cares and knows every mage will break it anyway.

What if they're dealing with someone who can do the Cleansing and Severing metamagics, and the Sterilise spell? It's going to be hard to say the least!

What's severing? That's not a canon thing is it?

Here's a question that just popped in. All sentient creatures have an astral signature, regardless of magical ability or essence. Say someone who owns a knife, carries it around a good bit, then in a fit of rage kills someone with it, they leave teh knife there, not thinking learly. How long before this mundane person's signature is faded from the knife?

Also, would a person with low essence fade before a personwith a high essence?

I was thinking more like a legislative mandate that crimes that were of purely magical nature have a jury of magically active peers...

but I can see how that might not make it into law by lobbying... just thought I would share the perspective I was coming from.

=Mike R.

Besides a person that can astrally perceive has got to be a lawyers nightmare for jury selection. Though I could definitely see balifs being astrally perceptive, with their own magical group and generally highly initiated.

I know here in nevada it's a myth.

I've heard the same of people working in certain industries that require large amounts of strength. It may be a legend, however.

~J