Is there any reason (or advantage) for a dual natured character (in this case an Adept) to have vision augmentation, either of an implanted or magical nature? Would said Adept find any use for Image Magnification, Low Light, or Thermographic vision, seeing as he is already constantly Astrally Perceiving?

Do you rule that a dual natured character does not receive the normal +2 to non-magical TNs, as is detailed in Critters, being that this is his natural state?

Two words: Mana warp. He's going to have trouble seeing into a mana warp on pure astral perception alone.

For shapeshifters, the SRComps states that they do not suffer the +2TN.

How are vision augmentations going to help with a mana warp, when the Adept is constantly perceiving anyway?

Not all dual natured characters are 'shifters, which is why I asked.

Well, some dual natured do not have astral perception or rather no "Sight", just feelings.

Cybermantics are dual natured and have to learn how to perceive properly, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

I'd say a dual natured character doesn't get the penalty, but if they became dual natured during the game, they'd have the penalty for a while but slowly get rid of it.

As for vision modifications, as long as they still have their functional eyes there's a use for them, since if you're concentrating on looking at something you can pretty much ignore sounds, the same should be true of astral senses.

In the 2nd paragraph on P260, SR3, (the start of the spirits and dragons chapter) it states that dual-natured creatures don't get the +2 to TNs.

I don't think vision mods would provide much help to the adept. Flare compensation *might* help against the glare caused by masses of people, but that's stated as a distraction penaltry so I'm not sure. You may need to take special astral vision bonuses for that.

Those mods will help with his physical vision. Image mag can let him read the number on that guys cell phone from across the street, flare comp to deal with a flash grenade, thermo to help locate a hiding drone, and low-light so you can wear your sunglasses at night and still read the paper. Obviously they're less useful than for someone without astral perception.

The only one I'd go with is flare comp, though. The rest provide bonuses which will be rarely realized.


Now if you're feeling generous you can apply an adepts magical flare comp to his astral perception or let him buy something special for that. Grey area, I think

Thanks guys. I never really thought about this, but that's probably because I never had a character that couldn't shut off his Astral Perception.

I can see the use for some of the varying augmentations/modifications, but not others, at least to the same degree. Low light is particularly limited in it's uses (although the reading at night example is valid ), and Thermographic vision is almost as bad. The benefits of Vision Mag and Flare Compensation would be almost unchanged though.

Just to throw a little something into the mix, SRComp states that shifters have to use a simple action to astrally percieve (pg 36) -- seeming to indicate that they aren't always astrally percieving, even if they are always astrally active. Does everyone here pretty much ignore that rule, or is it true that dual natured creatures really aren't always astrally percieving unless they choose to be? Why would a dual-natured being ever *not* astrally percieve?

It is distracting or unpleasant? I often breathe through my mouth in the presence of nasty odors or put hearing plugs in at work. Perhaps for Dual natured beings, simply closing their astral eyes allows them to focus on the world around them or close out the multitude of unpleasant emotions and auras on the astral? Also, it takes a Simple action to Observe in Detail (roll dice) so it taking a Simple to Observe the Astral (roll dice) makes sense.

I've always interpreted the shapeshifter's "astral perception as a simple action" (SRC.36) the way Kanada Ten describes: it's the equivalent of a mundane person using a simple action to make a perception test (SR3.106 "Observe in Detail"). I don't think it means that a dual natured character can shut off what their new sense is telling them about the astral plane.

Strictly by Canon, shapesifters can turn it off, since they have to turn it on to use it in the first place. But they are still dual and vulnerable to astral attack.

It says "Shapeshifters are dual beings... Consequently, they can use astral perception any time as a simple action." This is a consequence of their dual nature, meaning that you must apply this rule to all dual beings.

However, the rules in SR3 say that "...the astral awareness of a dual being is active all the time. It cannot be 'turned off', since it is the natural state of the being."

Also, the very definition of a dual being is written in SR3: "Characters and creatures using astral perception are referred to as dual beings since they operate on the physical and astral planes simultaneously."


Rather than change the rules, I chalk it up to unclear writing. I think that SRComp obviously refers to an "observe in detail" type action.