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Caadium
First off, let me just say that if this has come up before I'm sorry I just didn't find it since I tend to get turned off of a thread once it goes firestorm. Secondly, please know that I am lucky in that my players typically do not look for ways to abuse the system. In fact, the reason I'm finally looking at something for overcasting/oversummoning is for a magical threat, prime runner reoccuring style npc. It isn't my goal to just 1 shot any party member because of something like this, but I do wish to cause them to cringe (or possibly even open the eyes of the newer SR players to the magical 'oh shit' button). That beind said, here is a houserule idea I had to deal with overcasting and I'd like to get some feedback:

1. When overcasting a spell, you do not divide the force by 2 when calculating drain. For example, a force 10 stunbolt would to 9 (10-1) physical drain, and not 4 (5-1) physical. This does not affect normal casting, only overcasting.

The way I see it, that would encourage more split dicepool casting of normal spells most of the time, but still leave mages that 'I need to put all I've got into this' option when needed. I would love to get feedback on this.

Now, on a conceptual level, there is only 1 real problem I see right now: How do you approach oversummoning? That got me thinking of the following:

2. The easiest thing is to double the drain damage value for spirits when oversummoning (hits x4 instead of x2). That number might seem absurd, but then I don't see an average of 12 physical damage for a force 9 spirit as too out of line (3 successes x4), where 6p average just isn't high enough. I could however see going with something like +1 multiplier (x3 instead of x2) instead, which would still be around 9 Physical average on that force 9 spirit. This is the area I'm most stumped on, so I'd love input. The general idea though is that overcasting not only makes the drain physical, but it increases it by a significant magnitude.

I numbered the points for easy reference, and am very interested to hear what people say (and hopefully we can keep the asbestos lining on the thread walls to get some good ideas).
Lanlaorn
Yes, this comes up a lot, many people seem to irrationally hate magic. Regarding your ideas,

1. This is ridiculous, 9 drain for a Stunbolt? Forget about actually casting like a Powerball or heaven forbid a Fireball (15 drain!) at Force 10.

2. You're right, this is absurd.

Anyone who actually overcasts using these houserules is risking killing themselves on the spot. And for what, that Force 10 Stunbolt may do 17 stun damage, but your Sammy firing long and short burst from his Ares Alpha will do the same (as physical damage). I just don't understand the "problem" here.
Whiskey
What most GM's forget is that a mage invites other trouble when they spellcast. their spells, the higher the force they cast at the longer the astral signature hangs around, which is very much trackable.

- Go ahead, cast that force 6... that means for the next 6 hours any mage can look at the area and use it to track you.
- Mages are also karma hungry like crazy.
- The public is very misinformed about what mages can do. A high powered mage going one on one with a tank and obliterating it with a wave of his hand and null sweat.. SURE! If you believe the media.
- Mages are practically locked out of every advanced tech one can use to upgrade themselves. Skillwire? Nope. Magic or tech, your pick chummer.
- Most groups that know how to handle shadowrunners have one creed in combat. Frag the mage first. they dont' move all that fast but yes, they can blast chunks out of huge areas at a shot...

Mages are like artillery. They don't fire often, but when they hit, they HURT for damned good reason. And they pay for it. you don't get drain for shooting your minigun.
Lanlaorn
Even the combat mage as artillery piece isn't really that true, spells are amazing against high armor targets since Direct Combat spells bypass them whereas bullets don't. But guns still do a lot of damage, especially with burst fire and called shot. In most situations the other team members will be doing just as much damage as the mage, and not damaging themselves while they do it.
Traul
QUOTE (Caadium @ Jul 17 2010, 12:20 AM) *
2. The easiest thing is to double the drain damage value for spirits when oversummoning (hits x4 instead of x2). That number might seem absurd, but then I don't see an average of 12 physical damage for a force 9 spirit as too out of line (3 successes x4), where 6p average just isn't high enough. I could however see going with something like +1 multiplier (x3 instead of x2) instead, which would still be around 9 Physical average on that force 9 spirit. This is the area I'm most stumped on, so I'd love input. The general idea though is that overcasting not only makes the drain physical, but it increases it by a significant magnitude.

Or even easier: Overcast spirits spend Edge on the resistance roll (which they always can, this is GM call). It is less damage on average, but since there is always the probability of a critical success by the spirit, that sounds good enough to me.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 16 2010, 02:49 PM) *
Or even easier: Overcast spirits spend Edge on the resistance roll (which they always can, this is GM call). It is less damage on average, but since there is always the probability of a critical success by the spirit, that sounds good enough to me.


I've always likened conjuring powerful spirits to trying to summon Demons, they expect to be in control so they use every option available to them to try to gain the upperhand, especially using edge to resist the Summoning / Binding.
tagz
I have to agree that changing the mechanics isn't a necessary fix and I'm in the camp of "Magic is Powerful". Magic is powerful and it should be powerful, and it should have a cost to it that is USABLE. (I'm more of the opinion that due to the ease drain pools are built a unilateral increase of 1 Drain should be applied to all spells, but I think that's it. No need for new mechanics, no radical changes. That's just my opinion though and I haven't even brought it to my game.)

Having the GM take on the "side effects" of magic that Whiskey pointed out is also very effective. Getting tracked down, having everyone spot the mage immediately due Noticing Magic rules, these things are deterrents in their own right.

Also remember to factor in things such as range and visibility modifiers, these will tend to make spells less effective and make mages more careful about casting as nobody wants to take the drain of a high force spell that doesn't land. You'd be surprised how many groups don't remember to properly use those modifiers on spellcasting tests.


Over-summoning would likely (but not always, keep your spirits happy) result in edge use on the spirit's part as suggested by RAW. Considering the threat of exploding sixes and taking 2x the number of hits in drain... makes oversummoning a deadly proposition.
stevebugge
Another way to go if you're worried about the Mage becoming disproportionately powerful is to add more technical security, Drones work wonders the threshold for hitting one with a direct combat spell is pretty high and indirect combat spells have nasty drain. Drones on the other hand tend to have autofire weapons with lots of recoil comp and sensors capable of detecting invisible mages.
Caadium
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jul 16 2010, 03:29 PM) *
Yes, this comes up a lot, many people seem to irrationally hate magic. Regarding your ideas,

1. This is ridiculous, 9 drain for a Stunbolt? Forget about actually casting like a Powerball or heaven forbid a Fireball (15 drain!) at Force 10.

Anyone who actually overcasts using these houserules is risking killing themselves on the spot. And for what, that Force 10 Stunbolt may do 17 stun damage, but your Sammy firing long and short burst from his Ares Alpha will do the same (as physical damage). I just don't understand the "problem" here.


First off, I don't hate magic. In fact, its one of my favorite parts of the game. However, as a GM I don't want to use it unfairly against the group.

Secondly, my group is one that typically doesn't use things like an Ares Alpha. In over a year of play, the rigger has fired his van mounted minigun one time.

Thirdly, and maybe this is just the old SR player in me and the system/world are so different I need to let go of this idea, but I think that casting a force 10 spell should be downright deadly! They should be something epic and mythic the way I see it. The same is true for spirits. Dragons are supposed to be scary shit; with great dragons and epic magic/spirits really topping them out. A force 10 spirit is on par with most dragons so again I say that being able to call one up should be scary as hell.

QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 16 2010, 03:49 PM) *
Or even easier: Overcast spirits spend Edge on the resistance roll (which they always can, this is GM call). It is less damage on average, but since there is always the probability of a critical success by the spirit, that sounds good enough to me.


I know its always a GM call, but thats a fair guideline as to when to have spirits spend the edge. I think I like this approach though. It isn't just arbitrary GM fiat screw the player, but gives a solid guideline as to when the spirit really trys to resist. Of course mathematically, its a little scarier than my x4 idea because once you factor in the rule of 6 you'll often get even more spirit hits. Then again, see my thoughts above on force 10 spirits.
Caadium
QUOTE (tagz @ Jul 16 2010, 03:56 PM) *
Having the GM take on the "side effects" of magic that Whiskey pointed out is also very effective. Getting tracked down, having everyone spot the mage immediately due Noticing Magic rules, these things are deterrents in their own right.

Also remember to factor in things such as range and visibility modifiers, these will tend to make spells less effective and make mages more careful about casting as nobody wants to take the drain of a high force spell that doesn't land. You'd be surprised how many groups don't remember to properly use those modifiers on spellcasting tests.



QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jul 16 2010, 03:59 PM) *
Another way to go if you're worried about the Mage becoming disproportionately powerful is to add more technical security, Drones work wonders the threshold for hitting one with a direct combat spell is pretty high and indirect combat spells have nasty drain. Drones on the other hand tend to have autofire weapons with lots of recoil comp and sensors capable of detecting invisible mages.


As I stated, this isn't an issue of out of control players. I'm blessed in that I don't have that problem. This mostly relates to a SERIOUS magical threat for the group. Whiskey's suggestions will be helpful for the group in tracking and finding the threat (once they are aware of it), and I'm sure they'll tech up as much as they can. But, they are the PCs and not the unlimited resources of story-based NPC needs so it might be a little harder for them.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Caadium @ Jul 16 2010, 03:09 PM) *
As I stated, this isn't an issue of out of control players. I'm blessed in that I don't have that problem. This mostly relates to a SERIOUS magical threat for the group. Whiskey's suggestions will be helpful for the group in tracking and finding the threat (once they are aware of it), and I'm sure they'll tech up as much as they can. But, they are the PCs and not the unlimited resources of story-based NPC needs so it might be a little harder for them.


It works remarkably well for players that smartly budget their Nuyen too, There is a nice balance. Cybered people are vulnerable to magic but usually fairly good with physical threats. Hackers & Riggers can use proxy measures like drones to make life rough on the Mage. Now granted the players probably won't have tricked out combat drones but with a little ingenuity they can still use drones to create havoc for the mage on a low budget or if they have a good hacker they can always use other peoples drones.
Whiskey
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jul 16 2010, 03:42 PM) *
It works remarkably well for players that smartly budget their Nuyen too, There is a nice balance. Cybered people are vulnerable to magic but usually fairly good with physical threats. Hackers & Riggers can use proxy measures like drones to make life rough on the Mage. Now granted the players probably won't have tricked out combat drones but with a little ingenuity they can still use drones to create havoc for the mage on a low budget or if they have a good hacker they can always use other peoples drones.



I play a fox shape shifter mage in the game I'm in now, and other then the one stunball spell I have (due to the pacifist quality)... I don't delve into combat spells too much. In fact he's pretty good at avoiding it... BUT the one time I did use that stunball it dropped half the room. Now... with that said... Did it hurt? Alot. For both me and them. The best I can say is I shortened the encounter a bit and saved us a bit of ammo, as I'm pretty sure the fox was dragging tail by the time we bailed.

Mages don't have alot of defenses against tech, as it's usually a threshold of 4 for electronics or 6 for full fledged computers, drones and commlinks to affect them directly. The chances of a mage doing massive damage to a drone? With indirect spells, very good (and high drain for it). With direct spells and anything except combat spells? For those spells you have to have a force of 6 to affect them.. otherwise? Don't bother.

Did I mention my fox hates tech?
Lanlaorn
QUOTE (Caadium @ Jul 16 2010, 07:05 PM) *
First off, I don't hate magic. In fact, its one of my favorite parts of the game. However, as a GM I don't want to use it unfairly against the group.

Secondly, my group is one that typically doesn't use things like an Ares Alpha. In over a year of play, the rigger has fired his van mounted minigun one time.

Thirdly, and maybe this is just the old SR player in me and the system/world are so different I need to let go of this idea, but I think that casting a force 10 spell should be downright deadly! They should be something epic and mythic the way I see it. The same is true for spirits. Dragons are supposed to be scary shit; with great dragons and epic magic/spirits really topping them out. A force 10 spirit is on par with most dragons so again I say that being able to call one up should be scary as hell.



I know its always a GM call, but thats a fair guideline as to when to have spirits spend the edge. I think I like this approach though. It isn't just arbitrary GM fiat screw the player, but gives a solid guideline as to when the spirit really trys to resist. Of course mathematically, its a little scarier than my x4 idea because once you factor in the rule of 6 you'll often get even more spirit hits. Then again, see my thoughts above on force 10 spirits.


Yea but I'm sure you didn't arbitrarily decide that in your game assault rifles do half their damage to the user each time they're fired, right? I don't understand how you have trouble using magic unfairly against the group but not firearms. Or explosives. Or drones. Or, etc. Everything in the game is incredibly powerful.
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