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DrZaius
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Ghost is pinned down in an abandoned warehouse by a Renraku Red Samurai HTR team. He checks the chamber of his submachine gun to make sure the Stick-n-Shock ammo is loaded. He’s almost positive he’s going to die here, but not without taking out a few of them first.
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Getting the drop on the Samurai was probably the last bit of luck Ghost would have, as he leaned over his cover and fired.
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Ghost tags the first Samurai with a long burst of stick-n-shock, knocking him on his ass and causing him to twitch. He wasn’t completely down according to Ghost’s AR display, but he probably didn’t need to worry about him for a little while.
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The shots from the Samurai zip over Ghost’s head, but none find purchase as he hunkers down behind his cover.
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Ghost managed to tag another one of them, but their shots were getting closer, and he had to spin out of the way to avoid getting hit himself.
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Ghost felt the rounds pound against his armor like hammers, bruising his ribs underneath. He checked the ammo count on his AR display, worried it wasn’t going to be enough.
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Ghost knew he didn’t have much time left, and tried to take out the Samurai before they got him.
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Two of them were already down, and only one was left alive; but Ghost only had 3 shots left- he had to make them count.
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Ghost's breathing is heavy as he runs through the door of the warehouse, making a mental note not to mess with Renraku again.



[ Spoiler ]

Ghost is pinned down (again) in an abandoned warehouse by a Renraku Red Samurai HTR team. He checks the chamber of his submachine gun to make sure the EX Explosive ammo is loaded. He’s almost positive he’s going to die here, but not without taking out a few of them first.
[ Spoiler ]

Getting the drop on the Samurai was probably the last bit of luck Ghost would have, as he leaned over his cover and fired.
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Ghost ducked and weaved as the bullets zoned in with brutal efficiency, and felt a sharp pain as he felt one dig into his shoulder.
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Ghost does his best to duck his head and avoid the incoming fire, but it is becoming more accurate and he is afraid he’s not going to make it out of this one.
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Despite his valiant effort, the Renraku proved too much for Ghost, as he slipped out of consciousness feeling them dragging him to their vehicle to the ‘processing’ center.
DrZaius
I have edited the first post. I have removed the fight between Ghost and the mook security Guards, and replaced them with Renraku Red Samurai. Most of the discussion from posts 3 to 51 is regards to the fight I removed. I changed it in case someone comes across this in a search, and is interested in reading it. While I don't admit to be perfect, I tried to fight it as 'straight' as possible.
Doc Chase
Except that Ghost is overpowered. nyahnyah.gif
Lanlaorn
C'mon guys do we really need yet another thread on this, why not post this example in one of the other threads?
DrZaius
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 19 2010, 02:03 PM) *
Except that Ghost is overpowered. nyahnyah.gif


Yeah; the issue was I wasn't sure how many guards to throw against him, and once I had finished the first fight, it didn't make sense to go back and start over with more guys for the EX example. /shrug. These things take a fair amount of time, So if someone else wanted to crunch the numbers on a larger fight they're welcome to. Ghost should be within the 400 BP chargen rules, and in fact is probably weak compared to some of the monsters people on this board can make smile.gif
Deadmannumberone
You got your surprise wrong. Only guard 5 and 6 can take a full defense action, and Ghost can attack all of them that are in LOS (though with six coming around a corner, I doubt they'd all be in the corridor when he opens fire).
Walpurgisborn
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 19 2010, 02:08 PM) *
Yeah; the issue was I wasn't sure how many guards to throw against him, and once I had finished the first fight, it didn't make sense to go back and start over with more guys for the EX example. /shrug. These things take a fair amount of time, So if someone else wanted to crunch the numbers on a larger fight they're welcome to. Ghost should be within the 400 BP chargen rules, and in fact is probably weak compared to some of the monsters people on this board can make smile.gif

Why run it twice? Why not run it once with SnS, and then run it a second time, using the same dice rolls for the Ex-Ex? Right off the bat, I see a big difference in your results with the Ex-Ex occurs because none of the mooks were able to beat ghost on the suprise roll.
Yerameyahu
Don't even bother rolling, just buy 3:1.
DrZaius
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jul 19 2010, 02:49 PM) *
You got your surprise wrong. Only guard 5 and 6 can take a full defense action, and Ghost can attack all of them that are in LOS (though with six coming around a corner, I doubt they'd all be in the corridor when he opens fire).


How do you figure? 6 beat Ghost on his surprise tests; Ghost cannot take direct action against him. As for the "coming around the corridor" bit, I took a little creative license with the fluff text. As for the first 4; well they were going to get greased either way.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2010, 02:51 PM) *
Don't even bother rolling, just buy 3:1.


Except that that means all of the guards are surprised. As well as other random factors. Sure, on average Ghost will punk the guards. But that's not the idea we're looking for, we want to know where the bell curve is: could a guard survive? How often does Ghost miss? What happens to the unlucky ones?
Yerameyahu
In that case, you'd better do about 100 random trials. wink.gif
DrZaius
I think the solution is to see how many guards it takes, with both types of ammo, to kill Ghost. That's not something I'm willing to spend time on, but I think that's probably what it would take to settle this.

Yerameyahu
No need for any of that, though. Just look at the damage codes, the average resistance, the chance to activate 'drool mode'… and it's obvious.
BobChuck
Or use the bell curve results... figure out what the "average" number of hits for a given dice pool is, and use that number +/- 1 in order. Have the guards take the same set of actions for both trials, as far as is possible (if one starts significantly diverging, then you've already reached the objective).
DrZaius
I think if I dispense with the surprise tests, it would clear things up. That said, SnS loses a bit of punch if you aren't using it for suppressive fire (in theory, if Ghost had gotten the drop on all the guards, they all could have been in serious trouble), and a surprise round is one of the few times you aren't allowed to drop prone as a free action.
Yerameyahu
Depending on which sentence you read in the book, you are either explicitly NOT allowed to drop prone, or you explicitly ARE allowed to drop prone, when surprised. smile.gif Stupid book.

Aside: Is there any question as to whether people can drop prone *before* incoming Suppression hits them?

QUOTE (FAQ)
If a character is an area covered by suppressive fire, does he need to make a defense test immediately when the shooter starts firing? Or is he safe as long as he doesn't attempt to move?

If he is in the suppressed area and he is not behind cover or prone—then yes, he must resist the attack as soon as the bullets start flying. Note that any character that moves in, out of, or within a suppressed fire area (other than taking cover/going prone) must resist the attack as normal.

Does this say that people who aren't *already* prone/in cover get hit, or does it imply that they can drop prone 'as soon as the bullets start flying'?
DrZaius
I'll be damned!

"The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it)."
pg. 165 SR4A
Yerameyahu
Yeah. Weird, huh? biggrin.gif Now look back at the other page, where it says you can't! smile.gif
Ryu
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2010, 10:44 PM) *
Depending on which sentence you read in the book, you are either explicitly NOT allowed to drop prone, or you explicitly ARE allowed to drop prone, when surprised. smile.gif Stupid book.

Aside: Is there any question as to whether people can drop prone *before* incoming Suppression hits them?


Does this say that people who aren't *already* prone/in cover get hit, or does it imply that they can drop prone 'as soon as the bullets start flying'?

THe surprise test tells you which opponents you are allowed to attack. A bad roll might get you surprised by the good guys, while an average initiative roll after that will have the street sams on your team go first. They go prone or into cover, and ready their weapons.
Yerameyahu
Why did you quote me there? smile.gif I can't see anything you said that refers to the quote, although I wish it did. I'd like input on those questions.

For those not following along:
QUOTE (SR4A p146)
Drop Prone
A character may kneel or drop prone at any time, as long as he is not surprised (see Surprise, p. 165). A character who is surprised may not drop prone.

QUOTE (SR4A @ p165)
The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it).
Ryu
Hmm. Let me try another way.

If you are surprised (not allowed to act against your attacker), but go first on the initiative check, you can go prone/into cover.

If you are surprised and have a lower initiative than your attacker, you are not allowed to go prone "as a free action"(IMO the missing part).
Karoline
Maybe you should try 'not suppressive fire'. Catching people unaware with FA suppressive fire is generally going to end badly regardless of the type of ammo used. You could try running it again with a pistol or use an assault rifle on SA or short bursts.
Falanin
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 19 2010, 12:56 PM) *
Initiative:
Ghost: 12d6.hits(5) → [5,4,4,4,3,6,5,4,3,6,3,5] = (5) hits. Ghost goes on 17.
Guards: 7d6.hits(5) → [4,6,6,3,6,3,3] = (3) hits. The Guards go on 10, but cannot act against Ghost in the 1st round.
Initiative Round 1, Pass 1
On 17, Ghost attacks Guards 1-3 with 3 short, narrow bursts.

Initiative Round 1, Pass 2
Ghost attacks Guard 4 with a narrow, long burst.

Initiative Round 1, Pass 3
Ghost attacks Guards 6, 2 and 3 with 3 short, narrow bursts.


I'm wondering how you get three simple actions to use on initiative passes one and three.
Mäx
QUOTE (Falanin @ Jul 20 2010, 01:16 AM) *
I'm wondering how you get three simple actions to use on initiative passes one and three.

Thats actually one complex action, Ghost has a fullauto capaple assault rifle.
Falanin
Fair enough. Confusing way of writing it up though. I get enough of that in the main books. biggrin.gif
DrZaius
I was actually using the stats on the Ak-97 Carbine. Sorry if that was confusing. smile.gif I may retry this, trying to balance the fights more, add more bad guys, and just spoiler the first fight somewhere (either on the 1st post, or on the second).

EDIT: Or maybe just up the opposition. There are Ares Firewatch statted out in the book, right? smile.gif I think 4 of those guys would probably give Ghost a run for his money. Give him an Assault Rifle to give him a chance though. And do away with the surprise round and suppressive fire, for balance purposes.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 19 2010, 12:51 PM) *
I'll be damned!

"The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it)."
pg. 165 SR4A


Dropping prone is allowed as long as it isn't in response to the actions of the character who surprised them, as they can not react to anything done to them by someone who has surprised them.

Imagine a guy is flanked. If the attacker on the side goes first, he gets to plug the sucker with a success test. If the attacker in front goes, then the sucker, who sees that attacker, can drop prone, go on full dodge, whatever, and that affects what the flanking attacker is looking at when his turn comes up.
Yerameyahu
Sounds like a *really* tough metagaming test: 'Oh, honest, I was just *coincidentally* dropping prone right then! It totally was not in reaction to the surprising enemy!' biggrin.gif
Daylen
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 20 2010, 02:28 AM) *
Sounds like a *really* tough metagaming test: 'Oh, honest, I was just *coincidentally* dropping prone right then! It totally was not in reaction to the surprising enemy!' biggrin.gif

I'd not challenge that one if that's all they could come up with. I'd be more worried about grenades...
Mesh
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 19 2010, 07:03 PM) *
I was actually using the stats on the Ak-97 Carbine. Sorry if that was confusing. smile.gif I may retry this, trying to balance the fights more, add more bad guys, and just spoiler the first fight somewhere (either on the 1st post, or on the second).

EDIT: Or maybe just up the opposition. There are Ares Firewatch statted out in the book, right? smile.gif I think 4 of those guys would probably give Ghost a run for his money. Give him an Assault Rifle to give him a chance though. And do away with the surprise round and suppressive fire, for balance purposes.


The way you're doing it, you would have to run a bunch of the same simulation over and over.

Why not have Shock-Ghost fight EX-EX Ghost? Lower his attack pool a little, perhaps to a 14 to simulate a more typical combatant. Give them each the same initiative, same attack hits, and same defensive hits. The only difference will be the ammo. That should clearly show which is "better" (...not that this argument means anything. There will always be a "best product" in someone's opinion, but that's hardly a reason to nerf it. That only makes the 2nd best become 1st which requires that it too be nerfed which makes the 3rd best become... you get the picture).

Mesh
Mäx
QUOTE (Mesh @ Jul 20 2010, 05:46 AM) *
Why not have Shock-Ghost fight EX-EX Ghost? Lower his attack pool a little, perhaps to a 14 to simulate a more typical combatant. Give them each the same initiative, same attack hits, and same defensive hits. The only difference will be the ammo. That should clearly show which is "better"

Thats prettty much the most inane test you could make, the one that wins iniative wins, ammo type doesn't enter the equation in anyway.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 20 2010, 12:42 AM) *
Thats prettty much the most inane test you could make, the one that wins iniative wins, ammo type doesn't enter the equation in anyway.


You do it assuming each one won initiative. In the first round both are uninjured and make their attacks and do damage, independent of the damage they are taking until the next pass. Then they attack again at the wound modifier they start the pass with.

Real easy.
DrZaius
I'm probably going to have him fight 3-4 Red Samurai, and see who ends up on top. I'll keep the initiative from the first one for the second, however.

-DrZaius
Karoline
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 20 2010, 01:42 AM) *
Thats prettty much the most inane test you could make, the one that wins iniative wins, ammo type doesn't enter the equation in anyway.


If you set it up as a program to run millions of times, you could see if it comes out to a 50/50 win/loss ratio. If it doesn't, then the difference must be from the ammo.

But you are right. Run only a few times it is fairly pointless due to the nature of SR being full of glass cannons. Whoever wins init is likely to win the battle.
DrZaius
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 20 2010, 09:51 AM) *
If you set it up as a program to run millions of times, you could see if it comes out to a 50/50 win/loss ratio. If it doesn't, then the difference must be from the ammo.

But you are right. Run only a few times it is fairly pointless due to the nature of SR being full of glass cannons. Whoever wins init is likely to win the battle.


You're discounting the fact that I may enjoy writing these things up... Agreed, I admit that just a few times isn't going to show much (except maybe how the mechanics work), but I always find it useful in games like Shadowrun to have in-game examples rather than trying to figure out the rules by divining the writer's intentions smile.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2010, 04:12 PM) *
You do it assuming each one won initiative. In the first round both are uninjured and make their attacks and do damage, independent of the damage they are taking until the next pass. Then they attack again at the wound modifier they start the pass with.

Real easy.

??????????
I really dont get what your trying to say, if you mean run 2 scenarios changing who won the iniative then you really didn't understand what i said.
The ammo doesn't matter as the one who won the iniative kills the other guy in the first pass before he even gets to act with both ammo types.
If you didn't mean that, could you clarify what you did mean.
DrZaius
This fight is taking forever; I may just post the SnS example, and call it a day for a while.

-DrZaius
biccat
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 19 2010, 07:03 PM) *
Except that Ghost is overpowered. nyahnyah.gif

Or at least, illegal.

Cyberarm has 15 capacity. Each point of BOD, AGI, STR above 3 takes 1 point of capacity. With Body 8, Str 6, and Agi 10, that's 15 points of capacity, the max available for the cyberarm. Armor takes Rating x 2 capacity, so Armor 2 is 4 capacity (brings us to 19). Finally, the Cyberarm Gyromount is 4 capacity, making 23.
Karoline
QUOTE (biccat @ Jul 20 2010, 12:03 PM) *
Or at least, illegal.

Cyberarm has 15 capacity. Each point of BOD, AGI, STR above 3 takes 1 point of capacity. With Body 8, Str 6, and Agi 10, that's 15 points of capacity, the max available for the cyberarm. Armor takes Rating x 2 capacity, so Armor 2 is 4 capacity (brings us to 19). Finally, the Cyberarm Gyromount is 4 capacity, making 23.


Nah, you can raise limb stats without using capacity through customization in Augmentation.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 20 2010, 09:25 AM) *
??????????
I really dont get what your trying to say, if you mean run 2 scenarios changing who won the iniative then you really didn't understand what i said.
The ammo doesn't matter as the one who won the iniative kills the other guy in the first pass before he even gets to act with both ammo types.
If you didn't mean that, could you clarify what you did mean.


Ghost1 v Ghost2

Pass1:
Ghost1 has no wounds and fires on Ghost2 doing X.
Ghost2 has no wounds and fires on Ghost1 doing Y.

Pass2:
Ghost1 has Y wounds and fires on Ghost2 doing Q.
Ghost2 has X wounds and fires on Ghost1 doing F.

Etc.
Dumori
I some time play with ex-ex at +2DV -2AP I think one issue with SnS alot was nerfed around it ot one poitn we had the ex-ex is too good issue now they nerfed that SnS takes the spot as best ammon we nerf SnS ADPS will get the same treament ECT ECT.
biccat
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 20 2010, 04:06 PM) *
Nah, you can raise limb stats without using capacity through customization in Augmentation.

I suppose you could put 8 points of body/str/agi into the Cyberarm (making it availability 12), and then do the rest through capacity, just barely getting everything crammed in.
Mäx
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2010, 07:18 PM) *
Ghost1 v Ghost2

Pass1:
Ghost1 has no wounds and fires on Ghost2 doing X.
Ghost2 has no wounds and fires on Ghost1 doing Y.

Pass2:
Ghost1 is dead
Ghost2 is dead

Fixed that one for you.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 20 2010, 11:29 AM) *
Fixed that one for you.


I highly doubt they'd kill each other in one pass. But hey, whatever.
Karoline
QUOTE (Dumori @ Jul 20 2010, 12:22 PM) *
I some time play with ex-ex at +2DV -2AP I think one issue with SnS alot was nerfed around it ot one poitn we had the ex-ex is too good issue now they nerfed that SnS takes the spot as best ammon we nerf SnS ADPS will get the same treament ECT ECT.


Well, right now APDS and EXEX have the same overall adjustment to damage (Since every -1 AP is effectively .333 extra damage due to a lower soak pool) The main difference is the APDS is more likely to do P damage instead of S, but it is going to be slightly less effective against people with armor 3 or less (Which doesn't really come up very often), they also have higher availability, so they're a bit harder to get your hands on, which helps keep them balanced.
Karoline
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2010, 12:33 PM) *
I highly doubt they'd kill each other in one pass. But hey, whatever.


Depends on how they're firing. If your talking long narrow bursts, then they'll likely kill each other in one go.
Mäx
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2010, 07:33 PM) *
I highly doubt they'd kill each other in one pass. But hey, whatever.

Have you sheck the stats of that guy, he's kinda brogen.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 20 2010, 11:34 AM) *
Depends on how they're firing. If your talking long narrow bursts, then they'll likely kill each other in one go.


4 net hits average + base DV (5?) +2 (ex-ex) = 11 damage - 6 (armor+body) = 5 damage.

Totally not-dead.

Wait, burst!

2 net hits + 5 + 2 + 6 (burst) = 15 - 6 = 9.

Still totally not-dead.
DrZaius
QUOTE (biccat @ Jul 20 2010, 12:24 PM) *
I suppose you could put 8 points of body/str/agi into the Cyberarm (making it availability 12), and then do the rest through capacity, just barely getting everything crammed in.


yup.
Mäx
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2010, 07:44 PM) *
4 net hits average + base DV (5?) +2 (ex-ex) = 11 damage - 6 (armor+body) = 5 damage.

Totally not-dead.

And second shot with the other simple action.
Dead
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2010, 07:44 PM) *
2 net hits + 5 + 2 + 6 (burst) = 15 - 6 = 9.
Still totally not-dead.

Its 2 nethits + 5 + 1(exex) + 5 (burst) = 13 - 6 = 7
And then we add a short burst with the second simple action
1 nethit + 5 + 1 +2 = 9 - 6 = 3
Again dead, or atleast out of stun condition monitor witch is kinda as good as dead.

Or how about this

simple action take-aim
free action call-shot for +4DV
Single action short narrow burst
2 nethits + 5 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 14 - 6 = 8
not dead
Fixed, forget the no long bursts with calledshot.
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