So before I say anything, there's a very small handful of you out there who will know who I am, what I am asking about, and why. You know who you are. You might want to sit this one out. Thanks.


All right. So I have this game thing in the works and I'm considering Dragons and shadowy behind-the-scenes Dragon influence for some unthinkable reason. I'm reluctant to take things in this direction because depending on the Dragon, there's not really anything the PCs can DO about it if the monster decides to split hairs with them. I would like to not stick them in a hard place that way. (Better that it be the regular kind of hard place, wherein they must make some tough decisions.) Dragons of the Sixth World has been pretty helpful so far, but an insider's experience and input would be greatly appreciated. Our group has pretty much stayed away from Dragons for as long as I can remember, so no particular relevant experience there. Can't help but think there's a reason for that...

So, what I mean to ask is this: What can Dragons add to a world or a campaign that is fun, interesting, and hopefully not too cliche? Have any of you ever had a "Surprise, Dragon!" moment in a game that was actually pretty cool, and why? Is there anything not previously mentioned that should be seriously considered?

Thanks in advance for the help. Let 'er rip.

If you don't want a dragon to force them into a certain path, you need to let the dragon(or dragons speaker)talk to them, intimidate them, but leave his ultimate intentions ambiguous. Leave what particular dragon it is a mystery, for awhile anyway. Choose a dragon that's motives are not well known in the meta-plot. So probably not Big D. or Lofwyr.

My personal preference for a dragon reveal is always after everything is already in motion. I set up all the parties, factions, swag etc and let the players pick their own path. After all the proverbial chips are in play, often somewhere around the resolution, I let the players know that one of the factions/items/players is working directly for a dragon and watch as the players scramble to change their sides or plan a better getaway at the last moment. Sometimes I only introduce the dragon as a grateful recipient of all their hard work after they've completed it (often to their confusion). It's also fun to have people *claim* to be working for a dragon, just to watch the PCs work so hard on the ruse.

Had a character run with a group through the old "Bottled Demon" adventure back in the day, had 2 dragons in that. Think the Maria Mecurial one had a dragon too. Never really ran a SR game with a dragon, though did run old D&D ones. I think the main consideration would be, treat it like no matter the outcome the Dragon feels like they came ahead. Cause of the Xanatos gambit overdrive inherent to Dragons.

I think a key 'vibe' with things with dragons is that PCs, even if they 'win' feel like somehow they got screwed, or there will be consequences down the line. Paranoia. Things like, "My primary question is this. WHY IS THAT DRAGON SMILING?"

I had a great time playing that Bottled Demon adventure in the way way back. Of course that was the end of my first Shark Shaman but ahh the memories.

Meanwhile, in Essen: "Everything is working according to plan..."

Think about it from the dragon's perspective: they have such a reputation for multi-layered plotting and treachery. If any of their minions know that the dragon is involved, they'll start second- third- and fourth-guessing everything, which renders them rather unreliable. So it makes little sense for a dragon to take credit for things its own minions achieve.

The nastiest thing for the dragon to do is to leave clues that its enemies are working for it; they'll start to doubt all their plans and hamper themselves, trying to figure out how their actions might play into the dragon's "deeper" (not necessarily real) plans.

If the dragon reveals its true nature to a minion, that's certainly calculated to send the minion in a particular direction; to make a minion more loyal (scared straight, lure of teaching for a magician, ambition for those who desire draconic backing), or to send the minion off in the deep end trying to "stop" the dragon's "scheme", which is probably exactly what the dragon wanted stopped.

The point is, a dragon would try only to reveal its nature when that will make people do what the dragon wants them to do; random revelations make minions unreliable.

Think about it from the dragon's perspective: they have such a reputation for multi-layered plotting and treachery. If any of their minions know that the dragon is involved, they'll start second- third- and fourth-guessing everything, which renders them rather unreliable. So it makes little sense for a dragon to take credit for things its own minions achieve.

The nastiest thing for the dragon to do is to leave clues that its enemies are working for it; they'll start to doubt all their plans and hamper themselves, trying to figure out how their actions might play into the dragon's "deeper" (not necessarily real) plans.

If the dragon reveals its true nature to a minion, that's certainly calculated to send the minion in a particular direction; to make a minion more loyal (scared straight, lure of teaching for a magician, ambition for those who desire draconic backing), or to send the minion off in the deep end trying to "stop" the dragon's "scheme", which is probably exactly what the dragon wanted stopped.

The point is, a dragon would try only to reveal its nature when that will make people do what the dragon wants them to do; random revelations make minions unreliable.

Dragons are best revealed at the end of a long string of runs as the mastermind behind it. Best way to do it is not to plan it in advance, but keep notes of every session. Pick four or five completely unrelated runs you've done and figure out a way in which they're all connected and find "clues" in them that you didn't plan, then present it to the players when they meet the dragon him/herself or an obvious agent of the dragon. Have the dragon berate them for not getting the "obvious" clues of their employer. The reason I say do it this way is that if you try to plan it out, eventually you'll drop a cluehammer-level hint and a dragon wouldn't do that.

Also, in any direct confrontation between a dragon and the PCs, feel free to take a break to contemplate every move. I personally like getting a glass of water or going out for a smoke break. This gives you time to consider what the thought processes the dragon would be able to go through in a matter of seconds.

I would recommend using a younger dragon instead of an adult or greater dragon. They tend to be a little more brash in their temperament and would more likely deal with shadowrunners as they would note be likely to have underlings yet.

One approach that occurs to me is for the dragon to hire the runners (via well-insulated intermediaries) for several apparently unrelated runs. Then have the Johnson "reveal" that the runs are part of a complex plot to thwart some scheme by the dragon himself, and assure them that completing the plot will prevent the dragon from coming after them. The runners will either bail entirely (sensibly disbelieving the Johnson's assurances), or since they believe they have already incurred the dragon's wrath, will plot their black little hearts out to finish the job in the faint hope that it will help them escape. Either way works: If they choose to bail, the dragon will place his targets in front of them for them to stampede through. If they decide to stick it out, the missions will be damaging his targets. Regardless, the dragon wins. Toss in information about a particularly nice safehouse somewhere, so they can plan to hole up there when they manage to disentangle themselves.

The runners plow through the arc without ever seeing the dragon, all the way through the finale. Then, when they arrive at the safehouse, they find the dragon waiting for them. He congratulates them (or rather, congratulates himself on using them), awards them some minor bonus for playing their part "exactly as I had planned", describes several highlights of their efforts, and invites them to enjoy their stay at his lodge/villa/whatever. If they manage to ask why he set it up that way before he departs...

"I wished you to employ all of your resources in my little tasks. Obviously, if you believed you were working against me, you would hold nothing back."

YES! The reveal at the end of a long ark is wonderful.

Make sure the dragon has higher relevant attributes and skills than the runners. It wouldn't do that a PC created to outplot everyone short of a Great Dragon get suckered.

I find dragons have to be used extremely sparingly, or their utility and drama is seriously attenuated.

As a GM, you want to convey three things:
1. Power. Dragons are playing in a whole other league (sport, even) from the runners. They have resources, skills, abilities that the PCs don't even know that they want.
2. Threat. Dragons should be menacing. If they want you dead, you are dead. No questions, no escape plans, no hope.
3. Smarts. Dragons should be presented as hyper-intelligent, playing chess ten moves ahead of everybody else.

The problem is that just rolling three or four times as many dice for actions as the team doesn't convey power or threat, it just conveys "The GM is a cheating ass." So, in my games I set up the power and threat of the dragons away from any encounters that have dragons. It's one of my standard house rules (no matter what game system I'm in), and I tell it to the players explicitly: "If you find yourself fighting a dragon, you are going to die. If you find yourself fighting a great dragon, all of you are going to die. If I throw a dragon at you, I'm actively trying to kill you." Throw out references to how overpowering dragons are in the setting, with screamsheet mentions of draconic might from time to time (it's what Aden is for, right?). Have powerful NPCs really freak out about them.

The other way to convey power and threat is for the dragon's minions/allies to be scary as hell as well...but conceivably beatable. Mages with Magic of 8 or 9. Force 8 or 9 spirits. Sentient paracritters. That sort of thing.

But both the dragon and the minions absolutely positively _must_ be lethal. Be willing to kill lots of bystanders, or key NPCs to help convey the threat. If it comes to combat, you absolutely must not pull any punches, and the punches have to be extremely hard. If the power is restrained, or the threat toothless, the game is up. Don't cheat, don't have the minion throw 30 dice...but stack the deck heavily against the players.

I guess I can reduce my advice on power and threat to two things: The dragon should already be scary before it ever shows up. Once it shows up, and if it's pissed, people need to die.

The smarts is easy to do, as others have mentioned: The dragon always knows everything that is going on, and no matter what happens, it works in the dragon's favor. Since few of us are chess grandmasters, the simple thing to do is cheat. Make up whatever new facts or plots or players it takes to make it happen. As long as it isn't impossible, the dragon can do it, and probably has.

Actually, it would.

Dragons are the superpowers of Shadowrun and KNOWS it. Two things they should be a victim of is underestimating the puny humans and hubris.

Which means, they should be able to be suckered since they underestimate everything not on their own powerlevel.

The consequences of suckering a dragon though is another thing entirely...

I agree with pretty much everything Runner Smurf said. I'll just add that a Dragons hyper intellect means that they have planned elaborate traps for anyone who would try to harm them, 100 layers deep. Traps in traps in traps, all the way down. It's not just their massive armor + body + magic that's protecting them. They also have literally hundreds of escape and contingency plans all in their head at the same time. Many of them can call on their army of bound spirits an ally spirits to come to their aid in a moments notice.

A dragon may underestimate the powers of a shadowrun team, but not to the point of getting himself killed over it.

Agreed, but a runner team might still fool a dragon and do something he didn't expect. Killing a dragon will be nigh impossible but screwing up their plans is very possible.

Right.

I wouldn't think too much about the plans of a great dragon. It's hardly possible to represent a creature that smart. I recommend that your dragon has only minor interesst in the actions of your players. This way the players can still 'win' because you don't have to kill the players afterwards.
Maybe the dragon is interessed in some of the information just due to personal interest. Or he wants something the players possess but just because of a collection or a bet. I made sure the players know they will face a dragon (like someone tell them to meet him in a certain place) and i made clear the dragon does not fear them (bring what ever you want). The Dragon is alone, always very kind and just make clear that he wants what he wants. This way the players can think for themself what powers the dragon possesses. Just avoid rolling any dice at all, if a dragon is involved. The players can deny the dragon what he wants or give it to him. They still have a choice because the dragon is only minor interessted and thus his reaction is not nessecarily lethal but still very annoing.

A Great Dragon presumably has an intellect that just can't be matched by a PC. A dragon, on the other hand, may be not as smart as a PC that is built to be smart.

An average dragon has a Logic of 8-10 and Intuition of 8. While not every PC can exceed a dragon's intellect, it can be done.

Wow! Thanks a lot, everyone. This is exactly the sort of things I was hoping to hear.

As it is, I didn't really plan to have any dragons show up for quite a while. There would need to be substantial establishment first. Was hoping to do this WITH my players, since our group always likes bouncing stuff off of each other. And I really liked the idea of a young dragon in the first place. (Maybe a bit more on the thoughtful and inquisitive side than the merciless and bellicose.) The setting (Ukraine) is sort of asking for some kind of magical beastie, and since no great dragons have particular control over the territory yet... Well, there's the Draco Foundation scrabbling with the Atlanteans for rights to archeological sites there, but that's about it.

So thanks again. Looking forward to where this could lead.

That's the stats for a regular dragon. Aren't great dragons supposed to be that +10ish?

So?
Which part of this tells you that the PC is trying to match wits with a Great Dragon? I have already stated that the PC was created to outplot everyone short of a Great Dragon.

Heh, in an odd way, an encounter with a big D can be sorta like a Paranoia game. Even if you bring in out of character/out of game thinking, chances are it won't help any. With Dragons, even the nice ones, assume some sort of twist is on the horizon, even if the twist is that there is no twist, or that the dragon was just testing to see what metahumans are capable of before going bonkers, or that someone completely misunderstood a comment of the great D and reading too much into it, your run is actually the result of some aide to a dragon THINKING the dragon actually wanted something done, when they just wanted a cheeseburger, or something.

One of the simple definitions of intelligence is "capable of adapting to the environment" but what we actually consider intelligence "A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings — “catching on”, “making sense” of things, or “figuring out” what to do." just admits that an individual is capable of thinking things through and being smart, not that he does. Take a person with OCD, or a phobia, a person may know that they don't need to do something, or that something is irrational but they do it anyway, even really smart people make dumb decisions. I think the massive logic attribute and IQ dragons have does not transfer into tactical genius automatically and it does not stop them from doing stupid prideful things, having inflated opinions of them selves, or having fatally skewed notions of others. A person with a major prejudice may be said to be less "capable of adapting to the environment" and so less intelligent but he has not lost any points of IQ.

The super intelligence of dragons is all part of the mythology but it is unreasonable in some ways.

One funny dragon story I have was in D&D. Party of adventurers get to the center of the dungeon and find a good platinum dragon sleeping in a triangle shaped room. It wakes up. Not wanting to kill the party the dragon makes a show of force (the party is like third level). It melts one wall of the chamber with it's dragon breath. When that does not work after more posturing and threatening on both sides. The dragon decides to melt another wall to make his point.

Player: HaHA! now there is only one wall, the room collapses killing the dragon! Masses of gold and exp for all!
GM: But, wait, what? The dragon would never have done something so stupid. That did not really happen.

I rather like this.

"A Fourth World artifact? Interesting, and a fine addition to my collection...but where's the latte I asked for?"