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BobChuck
I'm trying to figure out when Combat paralysis does and doesn't apply.

Does it apply to Physical Initiative? (yes, it does, but establishing the baseline)

Does it apply to AR Initiative? (which is just physical initiative, so yes)

Does it apply to VR Initiative? (not sure; it is a 20 bp disadvantage)

Does it apply to a Rigger's "Jumped In" initiative?

How about a Rigger controlling a Drone?

How about a Drone autopilot following a series of commands sent by the Rigger? (no, but again, other end of the baseline)

Does it apply to Astral Initiative?

In other words, does this quality completely screw over a character in any/all fights he gets into, or just when dealing with "in the meat" combat (which is still a significant penalty, but not as broad)?
Voran
All I know, is per Unwired, is that the paralysis kicks in with Matrix as well as Physical combat. (pg 35). So I'd say its apply to Rigger stuff too. Dunno about Magical combat, but I would imagine so.
Deadmannumberone
A GM can be more lenient, but RAW seems to cover every one of those situations except the autopilot operated drones.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (BobChuck @ Jul 30 2010, 10:44 AM) *
In other words, does this quality completely screw over a character in any/all fights he gets into, or just when dealing with "in the meat" combat (which is still a significant penalty, but not as broad)?


It doesn't completely screw them over. It's actually a pretty decent if admittedly niche quality given the big ol' pile of points you get out of it. Perhaps you can come up with a more varied pile of carefully selected negative qualities that don't end up hurting you at all, ever, but the GMs I have played with have proven to be quite good at quashing that particular horse before it gets out of the gate, so Combat Paralysis has become a good pick for me.

Let me explain: Combat Paralysis says half initiative dice, not half initiative. Huge, huge difference. That's actually pretty manageable, since your final initiative total is hits plus your base Initiative value. It's really quite cost effective to do whatever you need to do in order to soft cap your Intuition and Reaction scores, because then odds are you'll be faster than Joe Security whether you Combat Paralysis or not, since base Initiative value is far more important and reliable. You can then take those 20 points and spend them on whatever you want, like perhaps a nice set of Wired to even further make your "paralysis" into a pile of fluff than an actual combat liability while also scoring more defense test and Pilot dice. It's particularly nice on characters who otherwise do not have the points laying around to reach the 200 bp attribute cap. A character with 4 Intuition and 4 Reaction with Combat Paralysis will typically be a bit quicker on the draw than someone with 3s in both stats but no Combat Paralysis. Really, the biggest worry with Combat Paralysis is on Surprise Tests, which are admittedly something you don't want to screw up, but again, if you were taking points from Intuition and Reaction to begin with, you're not really hurting yourself very much-- in terms of opportunity cost, you're really only giving up one die. And remember: these negative qualities only apply to the first test of a combat. On every subsequent, you're just as fast and deadly as anyone. Even combat monsters should consider this one, because 20 bps is an awful lot of points for a rather minor hit to something they're already more than capable at to begin with.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jul 30 2010, 09:28 AM) *
It doesn't completely screw them over. It's actually a pretty decent if admittedly niche quality given the big ol' pile of points you get out of it. Perhaps you can come up with a more varied pile of carefully selected negative qualities that don't end up hurting you at all, ever, but the GMs I have played with have proven to be quite good at quashing that particular horse before it gets out of the gate, so Combat Paralysis has become a good pick for me.

Let me explain: Combat Paralysis says half initiative dice, not half initiative. Huge, huge difference.


Not only it is not nearly as crippling as it sounds, for some characters I think it makes pefect sense. Hackers and TMs I think it makes the most sense for if they are not built around doing Cybercombat. Especially given that most TMs are threading up stealth anyway.
Whipstitch
Yeah, I mean, fluff wise and conceptually, it's a lot sounder of a negative quality than some other choices. I once took combat paralysis because frankly, I didn't feel like ginning up a reason why some combat monster with a Day Job, SIN and the inability to handle longarms (but not assault rifles, pistols, or machine guns with the same range as a longarm sarcastic.gif ) would be running the shadows. It was just easier to give him Combat Paralysis and Big Regret. Spec ops guy turned washed out head case after a botched op turned into a PR fiasco. Not terribly original, but what's a gaming table without a few cliches?
KarmaInferno
If you tend to roll horribly on Initiative anyhow, you may never notice the difference.

smile.gif




-karma
Voran
Heh, exactly, half of crap, is still crap nyahnyah.gif
Traul
For an extra layer of cheese, you can add Adrenaline Surge that trumps Combat Paralysis for only 15 BP. But which GM would allow that combo?
Whipstitch
Funny thing about that combination is that it almost makes sense fluff wise, even if it doesn't really work mechanically. Studies have shown that in high stress situations there's an "optimum" level of agitation as far as being able to make good decisions during the fight or flight response. Below a certain heart rate and level of agitation your body isn't really ready to rock and roll yet. But above a certain point and you get the tunnel vision and auditory exclusion and all that other fun stuff that people can rarely handle very well. At least not without training, anyway, and as far as I can tell the point of a lot of that training is to get people to plateau at a more manageable level to begin with. So, really, you could make an argument for a hyped up character that always gets to go first but sucks at situational awareness and thus flubs Surprise tests easier. You'd have a character who could beat his target to the punch nine times out of ten but would never hear the guy coming up behind him until it's too late. I just would never allow it in a game though, simply because it doesn't work out in terms of point costs.
Shinobi Killfist
The slowness isn't that bad for some characters If you were going to go slow anyways who cares, yeah now instead of almost last you are last. On the other end if your base initiative is high enough given how on average only 1/3 of your dice will be hits, you still are going fast, just not as fast. Basically if my base initiative is 12, I'm still beating all the 10 and less initiative types on average anyways.

I do think the -3 dice on the surprise test and +1 threshold to composure these is a big hit though. Especially for the lower end reaction people. If I am knocked down to a single die on a surprise test that is bad. Even with a reaction of 8, dropping down to 5 isn't good.
Whipstitch
The Surprise test easily is the worst part of it, definitely. You really have to consider the opportunity costs there. I find it most useful for Awakened or expensive metatype characters who otherwise have a hard time hitting the 200 bp attribute cap AND getting all the skills I wanted. As cheesed out as it may have been, I had an elf Adept who used the quality to afford some more Intuition, and then later I picked up some Combat Sense with my first new point of Magic, effectively rendering Surprise a virtual non-issue (or at least making him no more vulnerable than the samurai, anyway). A bit lame, perhaps, but considering we had another guy at the table who took Incompetent: Nautical Mechanic such a build was practically a model of restraint.
Karoline
If you are in 'combat' it applies. Be it physical, matrix, or astral. I don't see why a drone that you aren't directly (jumped in or using command program) controlling would be effected by this, but a drone that you are controlling with command (Or jumped into) would be (since you are entering combat and it runs off your init).

Edit: Yeah, for the most part, this isn't such a bad quality considering the massive 20BP that you get for it.
Voran
I'd be concerned Combat Paralysis + Adrenaline Surge = superspaz. A wonderful combination in which the GM gets to decide what your surge action is during that first round nyahnyah.gif
Makki
i'd advise against combat paralysis if you were an awakened with a metor spirit like e.g. wolf. the treshold 3 to retreat is already pretty hard. but combat paralysis increases it by one, thats not doable in most cases..
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 31 2010, 02:15 AM) *
i'd advise against combat paralysis if you were an awakened with a metor spirit like e.g. wolf. the treshold 3 to retreat is already pretty hard. but combat paralysis increases it by one, thats not doable in most cases..


I rarely attempt to make those tests anyways though. To me those rolls are, hey if you don't want to role play your character here is a roll to try and force you back on track. If I wanted to retreat in a fight I would not take wolf as a mentor. If I want to be a idiot who never retreats I take wolf. I'm wolf I don't retreat, the only fight I don't win is my last. Why would I even attempt to make the roll in the first place?
Irion
QUOTE ("Shinobi Killfist")
I do think the -3 dice on the surprise test and +1 threshold to composure these is a big hit though. Especially for the lower end reaction people. If I am knocked down to a single die on a surprise test that is bad. Even with a reaction of 8, dropping down to 5 isn't good.

Jep. These are the major draw backs. Mentorspirits would ask for will+char(4)! To be able to match this number reliable you would need about 14 dices.
The -3 for surprise test is a tough hit, but you may find ways to compensate for that. (Foci with combat sense, increase of reaktion(easy with ware) or intuition)

Btw: Surprise ist reaktion+intuition. So it is not that bad.
Jaid
also, compared to most of the other 20 point negative qualities, combat paralysis is almost as good as a positive quality (note: this is largely because of the fact that the other 20 point negative qualities amount to "write up a second character, because this one is going to die real soon if this quality is actually enforced")

mind you, i still consider it to be pretty bad (easy to surprise is really not a good thing, especially if you are easy to kill otherwise such as a technomancer or similar), it just isn't nearly as crippling as other 20 point negative qualities.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 31 2010, 12:50 PM) *
also, compared to most of the other 20 point negative qualities, combat paralysis is almost as good as a positive quality (note: this is largely because of the fact that the other 20 point negative qualities amount to "write up a second character, because this one is going to die real soon if this quality is actually enforced")

mind you, i still consider it to be pretty bad (easy to surprise is really not a good thing, especially if you are easy to kill otherwise such as a technomancer or similar), it just isn't nearly as crippling as other 20 point negative qualities.


Really? I like Combat Paralysis, it is a nice Drawback in my opinion; But I often take Bad Luck more often. This, too, is an awesome Drawback (with an enforceable mechanic), and since I rarely use Edge in game fo rthose who have it, it has far less of an impact upon me. Note: My Characters tend to have low Edge (generally) when I have the bad luck Quality because I am... Unlcuky to start with... the Bad Luck Quality just reinforces it when I have no other choice but to rely upon my Luck. Sometimes it bites me in the ass... Oh well... wobble.gif

That Said... yes, being squishy and having Combat Paralysis is often a bad thing...
Irion
It is a nice quality to flesh out certain charecters. Mostly the type of "runner through missfortune".
How bad it is, depends on the qualitys you combine it with.

But I was mistaken. The mentor spirits do not call for composure tests. So it aint't that bad. Unfortunatly I have no information about the thresholds of composure test in general or their effects. If it is only two hits instead of one, it aint to much of a problem.
Aaron
For what it's worth, if initiative is being rolled in a situation in which a character could take any kind of damage, I usually invoke Combat Paralysis. That's at my table, anyway.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 31 2010, 02:03 PM) *
Really? I like Combat Paralysis, it is a nice Drawback in my opinion; But I often take Bad Luck more often. This, too, is an awesome Drawback (with an enforceable mechanic), and since I rarely use Edge in game fo rthose who have it, it has far less of an impact upon me. Note: My Characters tend to have low Edge (generally) when I have the bad luck Quality because I am... Unlcuky to start with... the Bad Luck Quality just reinforces it when I have no other choice but to rely upon my Luck. Sometimes it bites me in the ass... Oh well... wobble.gif

That Said... yes, being squishy and having Combat Paralysis is often a bad thing...


Bad luck is probably my favorite negative quality in every game system it is available. In SR4 I love to take it, I don't know why. But yes if you have a 1 edge and you add edge to your roll, you lose 1 die, big deal. And rerolling hits sounds bad but since I used edge it was because I failed, so I guess I failed more.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jul 31 2010, 01:51 PM) *
Bad luck is probably my favorite negative quality in every game system it is available. In SR4 I love to take it, I don't know why. But yes if you have a 1 edge and you add edge to your roll, you lose 1 die, big deal. And rerolling hits sounds bad but since I used edge it was because I failed, so I guess I failed more.



Yeah... and even if you do have a higher Edge... it is jusy indicative of the monumental bad luck that always seems to strike when it is least expected... I love It... wobble.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 31 2010, 03:22 PM) *
Yeah... and even if you do have a higher Edge... it is jusy indicative of the monumental bad luck that always seems to strike when it is least expected... I love It... wobble.gif


Exactly.

The first character I made in Battletech without the flaw, has it without me trying. Next time I'll take it so I can get points for my ability to take a gyro crit every first round he gets shot at of every fight he has been in. 9 Battles and running. I don't even want to try and calculate the odds on this.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jul 31 2010, 01:26 PM) *
Exactly.

The first character I made in Battletech without the flaw, has it without me trying. Next time I'll take it so I can get points for my ability to take a gyro crit every first round he gets shot at of every fight he has been in. 9 Battles and running. I don't even want to try and calculate the odds on this.


Heheheh... wobble.gif Gotta Love Battletech...
Aerospider
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jul 31 2010, 06:47 PM) *
I rarely attempt to make those tests anyways though. To me those rolls are, hey if you don't want to role play your character here is a roll to try and force you back on track. If I wanted to retreat in a fight I would not take wolf as a mentor. If I want to be a idiot who never retreats I take wolf. I'm wolf I don't retreat, the only fight I don't win is my last. Why would I even attempt to make the roll in the first place?

I think you're missing something quite important people let themselves down and they make mistakes. Not all followers of wolf will do him proud at every turn. For example, you might attempt that roll when the alternative is certain death and your character would prefer living with some shame to dying with none.

A wolf shaman who never even considers retreating is not necessarily roleplayed better than one who retreats from really nasty encounters and feels ashamed afterwards. The roll to retreat is representative of the pressure the character feels to stay in the fight and the result of the roll is the result of his inner conflict. It's no more a substitution for roleplaying than combat paralysis.

If you wanted to play a character who felt fine about retreating then you may well shy away from Wolf for the sake of your gameplay experience. However, if you wanted to play an abject coward who had been mystically chosen by Wolf and not only struggled with his responsibilities but was also known locally as the worst wolf shaman going, then I'd say you'd got yourself an interesting character concept already.
Karoline
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 2 2010, 08:32 AM) *
However, if you wanted to play an abject coward who had been mystically chosen by Wolf and not only struggled with his responsibilities but was also known locally as the worst wolf shaman going, then I'd say you'd got yourself an interesting character concept already.
Hehe, that sounds great.
Whipstitch
Hey, every pack needs a gamma.
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