Question about upgrades.

Do you have to sell your old cyberware/bioware for 30% and then buy the new upgrade at full price, or can you just pay the difference?

Example: You have Synaptic Booster (2). Do you sell this for 48000 (30% of 160000) and then pay the full 240000 (minus your 48000 presumably) for Synaptic Booster (3), or do you just pay the difference (which in this example is just another 80000)?

Thanks!

That, i think, depends mostly on your GM. I normaly allow for logical upgrades. But i take difference+some extra costs (surgery/nanites/time on the slab/etc.) But for some cyberware it is logical to rip it out and buy a new one. Cyberlimbs for example (If they are optimized or already modded).

Yeah, these are the kinda discussions that are important to have with your GM, or, if you _are_ the GM, have with your players. For me, I prefer the idea of just upgrading within a particular line of gear. Cost of difference + cost of surgery/recovery. However, I'd stick with the restriction/requirement that any upgrades need to be equal in grade to the one they're replacing, unless you're removing the whole thing and replacing it with the new grade.

Ex. You're not able to have standard-through-beta rated levels 1-2 and then slap on rating 3 in delta grade for the essence reduction, its an all or nothing thing. Likewise, if you have delta grade 1-2, you can't skimp and add 'standard grade' to get rating 3.

Synaptic Booster is a bad example (unless it's changed from previous editions) as it can't be removed, upgraded, or added to by other reaction-enhancing technology. I'd have to dig up Augmentation to verify though.

However, I'd leave it to GM fiat to determine which cyber/bio can be extracted and recycled or upgraded. Most of them are pretty logical. Cultured bioware? Nogo, only good for the person it was tailored for. "Upgrading" bioware? Nope, it has to be sold as used and replaced with a new model. Wired Reflexes? Sale, yes...upgrade, no. Cyberlimb...definitely sell for used and it can probably be upgraded rather than replaced depending on the mod or level of upgrade (taking boosted Strength from Rating 2 to Rating 4? No problem. Changing an un-upgraded limb to armored, strength and agility enhancements, etc. would need a total replacement).

Let me ask this: Anyone know what the rule is for official SRM modules?

I don't think you even have the option of reselling your ware for 30%. I guess it depends on the GM.

Why not, there's an option for "Used" ware when you buy it. That used stuff has to come from somewhere.

...

Other than what you don't toss to the Ghouls to prevent the body from ever being found.

I don't mean that used gear doesn't exist. I mean that players don't have the option of reselling 'ware for 30%. I could have sworn there was a rule specifically about 'ware (the 'keep players from vivisecting every enemy for parts' rule?).

I have never seen one (a rule that is)... I routinely sold parts (and metahumans) when I was playing my Ganger... where else was I going to get my funds for Drugs and parties? Heheheh...

Weird. Maybe it's just a long, long-standing house rule, because playing SR as a 'kill them, fence their stuff AND bodies' RPG is so bad.

Heheheh... Yeah, it only really works well as low end street gangers, and not even really well then... but a body was always good for at least 500 Nuyen... maybe a little more if there were parts that were somewhat salvageable... always paid for the next high, the party drinks, and girls at least...

From the SRM FAQ: http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/srm_faq.shtml





-karma

The only rule there is for reselling other's people ware is that anything beyond normal-grade or cultured is worthless, since they are custom-made. To upgrade any ware, you must sell what you have and pick a new one. You can get Synaptic booster one and later "upgrade" it to level 2. You will remove the older tissue for 0 nuyen (since it is cultured) and pay 160k or higher for the new Synaptic Booster.

Delta is unsellable or at least of no worth bar spares. THough I guess delta might work as used alpha for any one with a few mods.

Oh, I see: 30% for your *own* upgrades, at the very least, seems fair.

Makes sense. Sell your stuff for 30%, then pay for the upgrade minus that 30%.... Got it.

Used alpha being an option, i would think i can resell my alphaware when/if o ugrade to betaware.

*Other* people's.

The used alpha i buy for my character gomes from others too, so i fail to see your point.

My point that you failed to see is that you can resell your own 'ware at 30% when upgrading, but I like the idea that you can't (always) resell other people's 'ware (as Brazilian_Shinobi suggested; he wasn't talking about *your* own 'ware). Always so hostile.

The original poster is talking about Shadowrun Missions, so the relevant ruling is in the SRM FAQ:





-karma

Aha! I *knew* there was a flat 'no vivisecting' rule! Thanks KarmaInferno.

Outside of Missions, the basic rule is '30% base fencing for everything', correct? Then you pay finder's fees, etc.

Yeah... I am pretty sure the base is 30%... +/- any negotiation successes...

And my point was that his reasoning why only standart ware can be sold(becouse other are custom made) falls slat in the face of the fact that there's such a think as used alphaware.

No, it doesn't. He said, again, *other people's* 'ware. You can resell anything of *your own* at the time of upgrade, even custom bioware. You said "I think I can resell *my* alphaware […]", and you can, even under that proposed rule/interpretation.

If you misspoke, it's still fine: first, the rule is for PCs, not the whole setting; second, if you resell your alphaware, the doctors now have *used* alphaware to sell to someone else. No organleggers involved.

Yeah, I don't get how used alfa cyber works. The essence cost is the same of a normal grade cyber, although it is "custom" made... which should mean that you can't use it in anybody else.

Alphaware isn't custom made, its just better made then standartware.

Yeah, the only grade that's expressly made custom to your genes is Deltaware.

The other stuff is better quality and modified for your body, as in they adjust the protein typing and other biochemical matching to better fit you, but it's taking an existing product and altering it.

Only Deltaware is custom grown from your modified DNA.




-karma

Right. Alpha is just 'premium'. Beta is a little trickier, but it's still basically just 'super-premium'.

Incidentally, isn't used alpha 100% cost, but 92% essence? (Something like that.) I hope the GM uses optional 'used' rules if that gets abused.

Yes, that sounds about right.

Base Cyberware is not really upgradeable. You don't just replace a chip when you go from Wired Reflexes 1 to Wired Reflexes 2. It's like trying to upgrade a 19" Computer Monitor to a 21" Monitor. YOu can't just buy an upgrade to make the Monitor bigger. You have to replace the unit.

And there's no real way to upgrade bioware, since that's a vat grown organic replacement for existing meat.

Bull

If using the more sensiple way of addidng the reductions together before ablying them, used alpha is 100% cost and 100% essence as used and alpha cancel each other out.
This way of calculating is supposedly in the augmentation errata that we still havent got.

Sorry, 0.96. Yup, but they're very clearly multipliers. Alas. :/ In the meantime, a good house-rule is to have everything be a modifier (+20%, etc.) instead of a multiplier.

Yes right now the book calculates them as multiple multipliers, but the augmentation errata is supposed to change that into a more sensiple addition of multipliers before multipliying the original cost.
So 1*0,8*1,2 = 0,96 becomes -20%+20% = 0% change.

BUT, you could upgrade that Data Path used for the Wired 1, to an increased density data path for the Wired 2, or even Wired 3. You are just adding more Data Path to the already hooked up connections...

My take on it anyways...

Of course, Replacing the Unit has the benefits of being very simple to manage in game, so...

Maybe. Or maybe the wires used can't handle the additional information and feedback, and you need to use a higher quality wire (Cat 5 vs Cable vs Fiber Optic, as a crude modern example. All can be used for the same purpose, but some are more limited than others).

There's not enough data on it, nor does there really need to be, IMO. Is it pure hardware like a TV monitor or a Microwave or something, where it's more hassle than it's worth to try and adapt and upgrade? Or is it like a computer, with lots of smaller components that you can "easily" swap out? It's not really ever covered.

As both a GM and a player, I'm not a fan of players trying to find cheap ways around costs of items. The costs are a part of the balancing factor of the item as anything else (Well, less so with Cyber in 4th edition... I mean, Wired 1 costs less than most cars. :/).

For Missions though, I always try and take the simplest, most basic rule if it's not spelled out one way or another. In this case, Replace instead of Upgrade.

Bull

Replace vs. Upgrade is the Easy path to the solution... we use that as well, as the rules are ambiguous on that...

I agree: it seems clear that upgrade-by-replacement is simpler, more logical, and more balanced. Offering a 30% 'trade-in' seems fair, esp. if you've gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

Im sure they COULD make it so that all you need to upgrade is a chip, like swapping in a new video card or something, but where would the profit be in that? Nope, sorry you gotta upgrade the hardware to run Windows Wired Reflexes Vistaproexcalibur 3.

Doesn't make sense to me. In that case, type O + some cyberware means your bio takes 0 essence (-50% for bioware as long as you have more cyber + -50% for deltaware = 0%)

I am perfectly fine with used alpha taking 96% of original essence cost, the availability of alpha should be higher than standard to balance it out.

That is a completely separate calculation and doesn't affect an individual implants essence cost.

Also used alpha actually has a lower availebility then standart grade.