I've just been reading vice, and how syndicates control lots of activity - you can't rob without paying the vory, can't sell drugs or run hookers or whatever without getting in on someone's business territority. You can't even run a business without having to pay protection money. Then there's the comment about MCT releasing an exploit program with bugs in it.

It got me thinking, and I wonder what you all think of the idea.

Selling hacking tools and such is an area of potentially very profitable and illegal trade isn't just going to be left alone by the syndicates. Restricted hacking programs are worth a lot. There is going to be syndicates that make and sell such programs on the black market.

There are also going to be individual hackers who makes such software. Will the syndicates just sit by and let people make their own programs and do matrix crime without giving a syndicate their cut? Of course not. Sure, this whole "information wants to be free" anarchist thing apparently common with hackers might make them fight it, but a bunch of idealists up against ruthless organized crime that have people and money?

The main problem with it I see is the matter of territory. Protection money, drugs, that's easy - it depends on local, physical presence. BTL pretty much does the same, even though it is software. I figure that with how easy it is to dissappear on the matrix or appear as someone else, this is going to be linked to physical location too. The syndicates need people on the ground to discipline those who don't play ball (cheat matrix syndicates, you still get someone with a bat knocking on your door), and lots of the trade is going to be done with chips and certified credsticks to leave no data trail, which requires a local sales organization. Knowing the hackers in the area, and paying visits to those who don't buy programs like you'd expect, that's an important part of being a hacker dealer.

And if you try to pirate or warez an Exploit program - think about why you wouldn't steal a gun from the mob. The same applies here. Better make damn sure there's some nifty little tracer in it that pings the mob, and if the hacker dealer comes by, you need to wipe your commlink really fast and have a good explanation ready.

Comments?

Watch out for the Digital Mafia in Vegas, they'll take a ball peen blackhammer to your digital hands!

EDIT: whoops, sorry, wrong thread

I dunno, this seems rather unlikely. Why not sell your warez across the Matrix? If you're good enough to write warez, you can probably cover your datatrail, too. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that more and more BTLs are being distributed across the Matrix too (because people figured how to click "send".)

It's a bit silly to expect syndicates to have worldwide coverage of hackers to monitor their purchasing habits. "Buy local" also sounds rather silly. Why deal with people face to face when a typical hacker is much stronger in the Matrix? That's far safer. (And faster, and cleaner, and more convenient..)

I would think adding this level of criminal interest (for their cuts) would have the ultimate end result of weeding out the weak. Sure you can squeeze the lesser ones, or the wannabes, but those also tend not to be the ones with the best stuff, the hackers with the true cracks should be good enough, plus, as a whole, they'd be a dangerous bunch to piss off. Oh yeah Mr Mafia Dudes? You wanna take our power? Have a taste! Cue emptied bank accounts, files 'accidentally' transferred to the Feds, etc.

The syndicates good enough to also write warez might be good enough to follow your datatrail too (and they have the advantage of posing as buyers).

And the problem might not be being able to sell over the matrix, but rather one of people not being willing to buy over the matrix.



I didn't mean a syndicate having worldwide coverage, or the hacker choosing to buy on the street. I'm talking about local syndicates forcing local hackers to buy from them. If the hacker wants to be hired for jobs, he's going get known in the criminal community. The local matrix syndicate will also learn of him, and if he doesn't buy from them, they're going to look him up and talk about why he's doing matrix crime from their turf without cutting them in? It is exactly like how you can't sell drugs or rob or run protection rackets or whatever on someone else's turf. Allowing a local hacker to buy from a competitor is no different from letting a competitor sell drugs locally.

I'm playing devil's advocate, of course. I do some differences, but I still think there's something to the idea. Hacking programs are seriously expensive, something some sort of organized crime would want in on, and they wouldn't just let people pass around products for free, or even take kindly to competitors. The question is, what mechanisms would arise for enforcing customer loyalty and keeping competitors out? Criminals don't tend to be contend with competiting freely over who can deliver the best product at the lowest price.

I'd think that on the balance of things, making mortal enemies of the Mafia isn't worth the freedom to pirate software.

Depends on who you are. The Pagans (an east coast biker gang) declared war on the Philadelphia mob rather than pay them for the right to sell crystal meth in Philly. Anyone who considers himself an outlaw (like most hardcore hackers) is about as likely to bow to organized crime as they are to be cowed by federal law enforcement or corporate security forces.

Following a datatrail isn't so easy. If it were, then government and AAA agencies would be able to monitor everything, and such things as shadowrunners wouldn't really survive.



Why not? Buying over the Matrix is generally easier and safer. You could hide warez inside legally purchased entertainment sims. You don't have to go to shady bars to get threatened by thugs. Most purchasing-hackers will feel safer in the Matrix than in the meat.




Why would a hacker only take local jobs? Hackers are at their best when no-one really knows where they live, just how to contact them. It's quite doable to do mostly jobs against targets on a different continent. Safer even, in terms of jurisdiction.
Those hackers that do a lot of local jobs, tend to be into shadowrunning. Local jobs suggests going to places in person because they can't be remotely accessed; you usually do this as a team effort. And it's a rather risky and unprofitable business to try to extort shadowrunners. (They're too well-armed and often psychotic. Not worth the investment.)
Forcing local hackers to buy warez they may or may not need is weird. That's like forcing people to buy drugs they're not interested in; why not engage in regular robbery or protection rackets?
Also, as a personality type, hackers tend to be good at "beating the system"; they're not the kind of people you can easily keep under your thumb.



There's a niche for organized crime; selling pirated warez online can be quite profitable. By using anti-copyright programs that don't leave a big datatrail, they have a product that will appeal to the SINless community at large. Degradation ensures the customers will be coming back.
Hackers may have physical needs: bodyguards, mind-boosting drugs, restricted implants, hardware. You might be able to monopolize those in the local area. But entirely digital warez are too hard to restrict.

In the end, hackers should be treated like mages: customers with significant spending power, but also enough personal power that the mob needs to be polite. Like celebrity customers; they can fight back if you threaten them.

I think that depends very much on the degree of supralocal cohesion the syndicates have. I prefer a less monolithic view of the syndicates. In "my" interpretation of the sixth world, you aren't dealing with "the Mafia" or "the Yakuza", you are dealing with individual crime families or gumis which may or may not cooperate with other organizations with the same ethnic background.

Of course, if you start thinking about hacking programs being (forcibly) sold by syndicates, you're going to have to start thinking about everything else. What about Shadowrunner's in general? They tend to make quite a bit of money, and it's likely that in the criminal underworld they are at least trackable (The fixer needs to set them up with a Corp somehow). Are they paying protection money to not be sold out to the authorities? And then comes the idea of illegal Foci or Magical items. Those might be on the same plane as hacker programs, profitable, to awakened at least, and possibly being sold on their turf.

Personally, I tend not to go that in depth to everything. Maybe the reason syndicates don't extort the hacker "industry" is because after a while, it starts to get really, really complicated to run a game. I like your ideas though, but I think it's going to get pretty confusing after a while.

Wouldn't it be most reasonable to assume that the syndicates will target primarily fixers for protection money? IIRC it's mentioned somewhere (probably Underworld sourcebook) that most fixers have ties to organized crime or are at least paying protection money. So truly independent fixers will be either utterly low level or powerful enough to be considered their own miniature syndicate.

Okay, that makes sense, hadn't thought of it that way. I don't have/read all of the source books so I might be missing things, it just seemed to me that trying to figure out where to expand on the fluff/rules, while fun and quite possibly very rewarding, was going to get very complicated, very fast. But I do agree with most of the things mentioned in this thread, hackers are an untapped market for syndicates that they should probably look into...

Also, if you're a local crime lord. Do you /want/ to make enemies of every shadowrunner near you?

What's to stop a shadowrun team from taking out a mob boss whose gotten too big for his britches, and helping someone else take over. Or doing personal runs to start a Yakuza/Mafia war, or all SORTS of fun.

Can you imagine some Mob Boss asking FastJack for their cut?

I think that Runners/Organized crime have a live and let live attitude for every day stuff. They only go at each other when they're both going for the same payday.

Been there, done that.

Shadowrunners and fixers form their own criminal network, generally much more loosely organized than an organization. Organized crime doesn't have their on shadowrunning teams and aren't interested in it. They do have ties to them though, especially fixers who throw a lot of business their way.

I have a few of what I call circles, teams and fixers that are well connected to each other. Jobs and favors tend to get thrown around inside circles, and circles will sometimes battle over "territory" (mostly reputation, job suppliers, illegal goods suppliers). It doesn't see much game time though, mostly it is just for flavor. I also have levels within circles, with some on the verge of moving up a level, others at the brink of falling down a notch. Fixers and teams close to moving up or down a level acts differently and introduces some atmosphere and conflict.

I generally think the organized crime would not care much if Hacker Dave pirates himself his own attack 6 program. If Hacker Dave then proceeds to try and sell Attack 6 then they get pissed.

And they get -super- pissed if they find out its one of their own programs being sold to put cred in someone elses pocket.

all good ideas for Glitches on the availability test.

Sure, the program is Syndicate/Corporate made, and will not work on their networks.

Debugging is cake though.

Personally I think that hackers are just the kind of organized anarchy that no one really wants to fuck with.
It'd be like trying to muscle in on 4chan. You don't have the numbers to make it work. You come after a few and a huge pile of shit falls right on your head. Files go public. Shipments are re-routed. Business suffers all over, and Coders still write code in every other town.