I think the real issue with mission payout (in both Karma and cash) is that if the balance is not just right you end up with a considerable power difference at any given table. In a primarily home based (i.e. static party) this is not an issue; however, in a con environment, where some players come out for 1 - 2 sessions and others are out there pretty much the whole con, it becomes quite easy for moderately more experienced players to totally outshine the newer / less used characters. The obvious solution is to implement something like character promotion. Still, at 99 Karma earned vs. 10 karma earned, you're still dealing with the difference of 10+ runs. Unfortunately, I suspect that we do not have the player base to support a more fine tuned structure (30 - 50 karma break points). All of this does point to something else rather interesting. Given the considerable value of gear and ware, tracking money earned and spent (on non-upkeep) would provide an excellent second metric of relative runner power.

Still, easier these days to just find a face to help you with your gear finding needs.

Cheers.

-Morden

A zero-karma character running TR5 runs with an experienced party keeps the same monetary pace. Its about TABLE rating for pay. TABLES that cant handle a big mission are a problem if PC's need to be of similar skill. In a game built on people being specialists my experience has been favorable when including a new player who can think/roleplay well and do one thing decently. The rest is all about sharing the limelight and payouts shouldnt revolve around folks hogging the limelight or doing something better. Its a game about team effort in my book.

After playing a while and seeing the mission pay in Nuyen.... Wow, it's low. If you don't have a good Hacker, or at least a character capable of doing a decent job at hacking, where you can score some extra cash, you're hosed. The face archetype can get a wee little bit more out of those Johnsons that are hiring you, but not much.

Sure, if you play a "low rent" character as I do, you're fine with a small amount of Nuyen. Also, if you play a Mage or Adept or perhaps even a Hacker who only deals with the world of the Matrix... you're probably fine with a low amount of Nuyen.

However... gods help you if you play a Street Samurai that relies on Cyberware or Bioware. Your character will never advance compared to the other characters. Why? You won't EVER be able to afford upgrades to your systems or new enhancements. Ever.

That being said, ANY time you have a chance to score extra cash, YOU JUMP ON IT LIKE A CRAZED MONGOOSE. Can you steal that car or limo and sell it for 10%? Yes? Then do it! Can you hack the payroll system of that pawn shop you were just in and make off with an extra 2000 Nuyen? Then you friggin' do it. Can you round up the guns of the bad guys you just shot up and sell them for 10%? Then do it. Any chance you have to scrounge up the extra cash, you take it.

It would be nice to PLAY SHADOWRUN, instead of a game of "Hunters And Foragers". Me thinks the mission pay is a tad low.

The problem is that because the return for hording loots is so low, most players see that as the reason to simply try and get more of it.


I would like to see a system were cash = karma was used. Say each karma awarded was worth 5000. There would be both a minimum and a maximum for each reward. Base pay would be before TR was added.

Example:

The Johnson pays you 10 grand (and you get rewarded 6 karma) for completing the mission, Mike the mage and Steve the sam each choose how they will be rewarded. Because they are part of a bad ass team, the choose to run the job at TR 6. Mike choses 10K (+TR) and 6 karma for completion, Steve pick 30K (+TR) and 2 Karma. Each character will not their selected reward on their log sheet.

...

Are people really expecting 30k each per job in Shadowrun? Or even 10k?

Go back and check out the Contacts and Adventures book that came in your GM's screen. Check out the payments on the sample jobs. I'll list some of them for reference.

5,000¥ for the team
500¥ each plus up to 300¥ per extra day, plus a contact
1,000¥ each per day
2,000�¥ for the team
30,000¥ for the team
500¥ for the team
40,000¥ for the team
1,000¥ for the team
5,000¥ for the team
2,000¥ for the team

Based on this sample, a shadowrunner should earn 1,605¥ per job (maybe two grand if your table has fewer than six players). From the data, I also draw the conclusion that shadowrunning is supposed to have non-standard and wildly varied (and mostly "low" if I read people's expectations correctly) payments, with the occasional big score. I'm thinking the best way to get 30k for a run is to get a character promoted and then play in a prime-runner adventure.

A TR6 team should be worth more to the Johnson than a TR1 team.

I'd multiply any of those prices by TR at the least.

Compare the jobs in the GM screen to the ones in Ghost Cartels. The ones in Ghost Cartels are also pretty bush league compared to the things we got asked to do in Manhattan and the money is a lot better.

Most of these jobs are negotiable as well, some up to double. (The first one on the list is negotiable to 10k plus a 2k bonus.) Granted, that's actually addressed in each Mission.

With a limit of one run per week, your sample average barely covers a Middle Lifestyle, let alone any expenses that might occur (ammo, repair costs, ritual/binding materials, etc.). Also, a couple of these "runs" are jobs that might more reasonably occur in runners' "off-camera" time.

I think what most of us are trying to get at, though, is that there is a disparity between Karma awards and nuyen awards for most jobs. If there were at least a canon way to trade between Karma and nuyen (even at the 2 Karma = 1 BP = 5,000 nuyen rate from comparisons with character creation and advancement), it might be more acceptable. There is precedent for this in the SRM NYC Character Creation and Transfer Guide, in which characters transferring from Denver to Manhattan could sell Karma points for 2,500 nuyen each at the time of transfer.

If as a GM you envision your players playing lowlives (with Low Lifestyle being what they can afford), be prepared for your runners to look for ways to supplement their income and minimize their expenditures. Treat them like lowlives, and they'll start acting the part, resorting to looting bodies, organlegging, etc., to make extra cash--or even to make ends meet. Or even worse, the runners may decide it's more worthwhile to acquire SINs and sell out; the benefits are greater than Low Lifestyle and the personal risk far less.

What I propose is that:

1. The pay offered should be commensurate with the job. I can see a basic datasteal or the ganger favor going for a few hundred. I could see SRM03-02 Block War offering something like this. But most of the Missions are jobs that should pay much higher. I'll point to SRM03-03 Burning Bridges as a prime example: Without spoiling it, the typical runner response is something like: "You want us to do what? And piss off whom? For what you're offering? Next mission, please!" (Or they look for ways to take whatever isn't nailed down as compensation.)

2. The pay offered should be commensurate with the caliber of runners the Johnson is trying to hire. Better runners give a better chance of success. How to scale this? Maybe scale it by Street Cred (which, for the most part, indicates how much Karma a runner has earned) or by Public Awareness (which factors in Notoriety). Both numbers ought to be easily found by a Johnson, if the runner is getting a call at all. Base pay could scale by the table average. The main problem here (if it's a problem) is that the table of "nearly prime" runners gets significantly more money than the "noob" team for mostly the same job.

3. The pay offered should be commensurate with the caliber of the expected opposition. This is the case with current Missions, usually--the Table Rating typically scales the monetary offer well and sometimes scales the opposition well. It's the base pay that sucks for most jobs.

4. Any, all, or none of these could be affected by Negotiation. Maybe swing the table average of Street Cred or Public Awareness (as in #2, if used) by net hits (or a fraction thereof) in the calculation. It's a bit more math on the front end of the Mission, though.

I'd like to add that the disparity between the affiliate rewards and the above appears to be even worse. Do the right job for the right affiliate and, at random, you don't care if you get paid or not, because you're suddenly sitting on a stash of unobtainium. Just hope that it's the unobtanium you want and not the unobtainium you had been saving up for and just bought a much cheaper version of. If your affiliation reward is what you want, pay ceases to matter. Alas, there's no way to know in advance what it is or negotiate about it. It's odd, because IF they told me, I'd probably be more likely to do the dang job. I'd have a reason to do the job. As it is, I'm expected to ratout my team, screw my team over, get incriminating evidence against myself, all for "what's in the box". It's Escape from New York with a Wheel of Fish reward system.

It makes little sense to expect to earn 1,605¥ per job, with the occasional Luxury Truck thrown in at random. That Luxury Truck can be dumped at 10% for more than you're going to make in all of missions at that pay rate and living with a low lifestyle.

I also love when "what's in the box" is completely useless. If, as a mage, I knew the side job was going to compromise the primary mission and then pay (only me, not the whole team) in nontransferable delta clinic access, I'd tell the affiliate to go frag himself.