I'm reading through the Disarm maneuver, specifically combined with the Arnis De Mano advantage that allows damage on a successful Disarm attempt.



Does the unfortunate soul on the wrong end of this maneuver have to be wielding a weapon, or is an arm considered a weapon? The Off-Hand Training maneuver can't be selected for Unarmed Combat, so I suspect the SR rules make a distinction between armed and unarmed. There is also the special case of Cyber-implant weaponry. Can they be disarmed?

Keep in mind that referencing real world Martial Arts won't work, as the FAQ pretty much indicates that the names of Martial Arts in Shadowrun and their real world counterparts have no actual relation to each other.

Cyber implants are considered unarmed in my games. Unarmed has the specialization for it.
The disarm maneuver is the defensive reaction version of disarm. You can do a called shot to disarm with the same -4 penalty to the attack or you can use the maneuver and upon a successful parry (with -4 mod) you will disarm. The only difference i see is who has the initiative. As for cyber implants, you are better off trying to destroy them (break weapon maneuver).

Disarm has to work against a weapon welding opponent. So unarmed enemies are no good. For 5bp the maneuver is extremely powerful. Imagine fighting someone who can take away your weapon skill effectively making you as threatening as a wet spool of toilet paper.

All this is subject to your GM. My gm would let me use a cyber implant as an offhand weapon for parry/two weapon style. Mainly due to the implant being more of a shield than a weapon, which made it good for deflecting attacks.

I was always more a fan of dat arm dan dis arm.

Blades has it too. Some cyber implants are used with the unamred skill (shock hands), some with the blade skill (spurs on the hand), some with an ad hoc Exotic weapon skill (spur on the knee/elbow).

I see what you did there...

It says 'knock the weapon out of their hand'. It has to be something that can be knocked out of their hand. Cyber-implants can't be.

So if you want to take away someone's Cyber-implant, you would need to use the Break Weapon Maneuver?

Which leads to another question: Can you target a limb for dismemberment? Would you use the Break Weapon Maneuver, or a Called Shot? I know there were rules for Deadly Wounds and losing limbs, but I haven't seen anything for 4th Ed.

I think arsenal covers it to some degree. IIRC you have to take 7 boxes of damage in one hit for a special wound to happen with the chance to lose a limb.

Yes, the critical wound/etc. rules are in Arsenal. It's not really something you can do on purpose in combat.

I could see breaking a cyber-implant weapon, with an appropriate action.

What page is that on? I can't find it.

I agree that you cannot Disarm an unarmed attacker. I would think that break weapon would be used for spurs and such.
To be honest most hard core hand to hand guys I see are bone lacing or bone density increase end up being more dangerous at +3 or 4 damage to the attack with no outside sign of weapons. Seems kinda silly that a mace only does +2 but very heavy fists does +4

Sorry, not Arsenal. Augmention, p120-122. Mental lapse.

I feel like Bone Lacing/Density is costly enough to allow it.

I like these rules. Now I just need to figure out how to inflict 7P to someone. I would probably also rule that any attack that lands for more than 7P can be "pulled" to only cause one of the Heavy Wound effects, as appropriate. I have a new character idea.

I think a ponytail and a fatty stomach and a girly run motion gives bonuses to breaking arms.

Would it also give a bonus to making bad blues music? Or would said music give another bonus to the arm breaking?

Don't forget the Foot Anchor! Combine with the Kick Attack maneuver for good times.

Now, to add another layer to the debate, the Arnis de Mano 'damage on disarm" benefit.


How is the damage calculated on a Disarm Maneuver? Is it base weapon damage, or do hits over net count for bonus damage? Also, if you're hurting a guy with your parry attack, why could you only hurt said guy if he had a weapon in hand instead of an Implant or just Karate? Seems like parrying a kick with a stun baton should be a show-stopper..

1-Damage on Disarm Maneuver is calc the same way normal damage is done. So if you got agility (6) + unarmed (6)= 12 (-4 for called shot) total of 8 for the disarm, getting 5 hits VS a thug that is throwing agility (4) + blade (4)= 8 dice, gets 4 hits on it. You would do (str/2)+1dv (or whatever your damage code is, say if you have bone density, just add +1dv) damage. Disarming said thug in the process.

2-Base damage + net hits for damage.

3-You getting into reality too much. The techniques involved with disarming are meant to do damage. Such as Krav, you would strike the hand or wrist damaging them and disarming them. That's the martial arts technique, while karate would just kick the guys ass. Now if you want to damage people who are unarmed with your parry attacks look into riposte (arsenal pg 160)or counterstrike (4a pg 195).

We house rule it. You cannot disarm an unarmed person. However, you can do a damaging disarm against them. If the damage done to the limb equals or exceeds the targets (or limbs) body, the limb is diabled. If the damage is double their body, the limb is severed. After limb damage is calculated, it is halved before applying to their hitboxes, but even if you did 12 boxes of damage to a limb, that is not going to instantly drop a healthy uninjured adult.

Called shot is easy, yeah.
I was asking specifically about the Martial Arts Manuver, Disarm, which allows you to disarm your opponent on a successful Parry from Full-defense.

So now, the thug throws agl (4) + blade (4) and gets 4 hits, then you throw Agl (6) + unarmed (6) + unarmed (6) + (combat sense, specialization, MA bonuses) = 18+ dice (-4 once again) for a total of 14+ dice, virtually guaranteeing that you will not only successfully disarm your opponent, but you will do so handily.

Now, with damaging disarm from Arnis, and the Full Parry disarm Maneuver, do the extra hits on the Parry test count towards damage?
It's not an attack, but a defense, and one which the damaging disarm entry specifically points you towards.
Does the person who Parried automatically damage the attacker or does the attacker get their own dodge to avoid taking damage in addition to being disarmed?
Supposing the attacker is damaged, does he resist this damage with his full armor + body, or is he limited to the armor on his hands and arms (and his body stat)?

Disarm
Disarming an opponent is an effective way to end many fights.
Characters with the Disarm maneuver may choose to go on Full
Parry with a –4 dice pool modifier. If they successfully defend
against the attack (i.e., they score more hits than their opponent),
they knock the weapon out of their opponent’s hand. Th is maneuver
does no damage to the opponent.
Arsenal page 159

Called Shot to disarm
Knock something out of the target’s grasp. The attacking character
receives a –4 dice pool modifier on the attack. If the modified
Damage Value of the attack exceeds the target’s Strength, the target
loses his grip on the object. The gamemaster determines whether
or not the object is damaged and how far away it is knocked.
anniversary corebook pg 161

same difference. I'm not understanding the confusion. It is an attack, whether you are rolling to defend or not, you are doing damage if successful. The damage is base damage+net hits. It's just like counterstrike;

Counterstrike
Cost: .5 per level
Counterstrike allows an adept to seamlessly spring from
a successful defense in melee combat to a powerful offense,
turning the attacker’s force against him. To use this power the
adept must first successfully parry or block a melee attack (p.
147, SR4). The character’s level in Counterstrike plus any net
hits achieved during the parry or block are added to his next
melee attack roll—as long as he retaliates in his next available
action. If the adept opts to dodge or make a full defense maneuver
other than parry or block, Counterstrike is ineffective.
Street Magic pg 176

Only difference is you don't have the added dice from counterstrike itself, just the net hits and (as far as i have experienced) riposte isn't considered interrupting action. As for whether the enemy gets to roll for defense, no. Both of you just rolled to see who got hit, you just reversed it on him. So he takes damage, which he should be allowed to roll body+armor to resist, but regardless gets disarmed. This, again is how my games play out.... your gm, your miles may vary

The difficulty with pushing it off on a GM is that the question came up in a Sangre y Acero match, so ruling has to be by consensus of players.

So, your interpretation is that, if a person has the Disarm Maneuver and damaging disarm, it turns Full Parry form a roll to not get hit into a contest to decide who gets hit and for how much? Thereby making a skill + attribute test square off against a skill + skill + attribute (-4) test? Seems kinda rough, but that's how a good Martial Artist does it. Use a deflected attack to create an opening for an easy strike.


A well made character could use this against 5-6 attackers in a single IP... just walk into a Crimson Crush bar and call all of them worthless sissy Trogs..

It is, as Throw, and I would play it the same for a defensive disarm that deals damage.

I'm going to counter that 12 damage is by your own rules enough to dismember most people hardy Orks, Dwarfs and most trolls will keep the arm on them. Getting a limb riped/cut off then isn't enough to stop you "dead" from blood loss and trauma. You saying the ripping the arm of a human, any human will leave them still able to fight not in overflow and bleeding out?

Heh. I'd use the wound rules as written before messing with them.

I guess the next question is if Disarm works like an attack, what strategy neutralizes it? There's no problem with a wicked powerful attack as long as it's not like Mortal Combat's "1 hit then juggle to death" moves.

Havng more dice than him? You can redline on Agility, he cannot redline on Reaction. You have the full offense maneuver, Charge attack, and you can use some martial art cheese too with the combined +2 to knockdown and the sweep maneuver. A troll with Elongated limbs wielding a polearm for extra reach would be good too.

That reads like a list of upcoming Sangre y Acero fighters.

Why a list? The plan was to fit that all in 1 guy

Neat. Got a name for him/her?

The way my gm plays melée combat is just that, checks back and forth to see who hits and who gets countered. Much like real martial arts, if I swing at an enemy and get 8 hits and he gets 4 hits I win. But if I attack and get 5 hits and the enemy gets 8 hit I get damaged.

A good way to counter the riposte is grabs and throws (I went with touch spells). Or just don't attack with a weapon against a disarm expert. It's really a race to see who runs out of defense dice for defending multiple attacks first.

Would you care for a match? I have just the person for you to prove it against.

That's how it used to work in SR3.

I was going to suggest that. Called Shot for +4 DV will do enough usually to dismember.