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Ranarion

With a Spirit, with realistic Form:

a) Possible to give him the Form of a Car or similar?
b) How fast would he be?
c) How fast with the Power Movement?
d) Do you have to actual drive the "Spirit" Car ore does the Spirit this?
e) are there any downsides i didn't see?
Acme
QUOTE (Ranarion @ Aug 15 2010, 01:24 PM) *
With a Spirit, with realistic Form:

a) Possible to give him the Form of a Car or similar?
b) How fast would he be?
c) How fast with the Power Movement?
d) Do you have to actual drive the "Spirit" Car ore does the Spirit this?
e) are there any downsides i didn't see?


I actually remember something like that in some fiction that a mage had a Familiar Spirit that one of its forms was a motorcycle, so IIRC it's a possibility. I need to doublecheck though.
Ranarion
QUOTE (Acme @ Aug 15 2010, 09:52 PM) *
I actually remember something like that in some fiction that a mage had a Familiar Spirit that one of its forms was a motorcycle, so IIRC it's a possibility. I need to doublecheck though.


I need a little bit more than: in some Book it had been done. Especialy because we do not know the Force of that spirit, nor how fast it did drive.
Acme
... I'm sorry I wasn't more specific, Ran; to be honest half the time that's the answer you're going to get. I told you that because as I said, I need to check my books but I was at least giving you a potential confirmation of your hypothesis.
Ranarion
And i am Thankfull for that.. shouldn't sound like: "oh thats stupid". I just want to say what exactly i need.

And if there is no rule for that (i didn't find one), i want to hear what you as a GM would answer.
Mooncrow
QUOTE
A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object's normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into a wall to toast bread


-SM pg 102

I think that's about as specific as you're going to get. I went digging for the rules to do this a while back and that's as much information as I could find. The details are left up to the GM. Though if it were me:

a. yes
b. it would have to be a specific vehicle, and it would have the same relevant stats
c. as normal for the power
d. like usual, a combination of both; it can drive as you direct, with the usual limitations of spirits
e. /shrug

I personally think that would be within the rules, but if anyone has more to add/take away, please do so - I'm also interested.
Lanlaorn
It's certainly rules legal but the whole thing seems crazy to me. How about I make one of my Ally Spirit's Realistic Forms an attack helicopter? Why not dream a little bigger and have another form be a battle ship?

From the toaster example it would be fully functional you just need to apparently supply the fuel/power (which makes the motorcycle example from whatever book that is a bit odd, did he carry around a fuel can or battery pack?).

Things like a realistic form of a sword or whatever, alright sure who cares, you could be carrying one on you normally and while it's the ultimate in smuggling in past security, not a big deal. But when you let Realistic Form assume vehicle forms it goes into effectively creating from thin air some absurd things. The spirit turns into a tank to fight their way out, then a sports car to evade pursuit, later it transforms into a helicopter and once at a decent altitude into a luxury jet. The only thing that prevents "and then into a rocket ship" is that the spirit can't handle the background count in space.
Ascalaphus
Well, the Realistic Form description is a bit vague about the stats of a spirit using it.. I'm not sure it could gain the kind of stats you'd expect from a battleship, just by looking like it.
Toloran
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Aug 15 2010, 02:53 PM) *
It's certainly rules legal but the whole thing seems crazy to me. How about I make one of my Ally Spirit's Realistic Forms an attack helicopter? Why not dream a little bigger and have another form be a battle ship?

From the toaster example it would be fully functional you just need to apparently supply the fuel/power (which makes the motorcycle example from whatever book that is a bit odd, did he carry around a fuel can or battery pack?).

Things like a realistic form of a sword or whatever, alright sure who cares, you could be carrying one on you normally and while it's the ultimate in smuggling in past security, not a big deal. But when you let Realistic Form assume vehicle forms it goes into effectively creating from thin air some absurd things. The spirit turns into a tank to fight their way out, then a sports car to evade pursuit, later it transforms into a helicopter and once at a decent altitude into a luxury jet. The only thing that prevents "and then into a rocket ship" is that the spirit can't handle the background count in space.


There are a couple things that I can think of that (Partially) balances this out:
- Even though it has a realistic form, it's still on the astral plane (due to being dual-natured while materialized). As such, mana barriers will still stop them.
- Can be banished. (Which is hilarious if you are riding around in your spirit attack helicopter and the enemy mage banishes it from under you).
- From what the description sounds like, mechanical and simple electronic systems work but anything much more advanced then that don't function.
Tiralee
...I'm still wondering if my players would beat me senseless if I introduced a free spirit in the form of a Veritech Fighter...


-Oh yes, they would.
-Tir
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Aug 15 2010, 04:53 PM) *
The only thing that prevents "and then into a rocket ship" is that the spirit can't handle the background count in space.


You can't get flexibility to choose and a huge rule books of examples just for one thing. Even if you choose to cheese it into a rocket ship, it's still got the stats of a spirit.

You need to use your judgement. Not everything can be accomplished in writing rules down.
kzt
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 16 2010, 01:35 PM) *
Not everything can be accomplished in writing rules down.

But a lot can be, if you understand how to write readable and usable rules and some idea about what questions players and GM's have.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 16 2010, 04:35 PM) *
You can't get flexibility to choose and a huge rule books of examples just for one thing. Even if you choose to cheese it into a rocket ship, it's still got the stats of a spirit.

You need to use your judgement. Not everything can be accomplished in writing rules down.


The line about the toaster seems to imply that if the spirit was a rocket ship it would have rocket ship stats not spirit stats. The rule is at best very poorly written, at worst totally broken beyond comprehension. I dislike realistic form, I don't mind it making a toaster look like a toaster but gaining its function I am not to hip to. End of the day it should be a materialized astral form that looks like a real object nothing more. I would not mind a sword I guess because a materialized astral form could cut people and seem sword like, but I don't think it should be able to mick the conductivity of wires, transistors etc.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Tiralee @ Aug 16 2010, 08:44 AM) *
...I'm still wondering if my players would beat me senseless if I introduced a free spirit in the form of a Veritech Fighter...


-Oh yes, they would.
-Tir


Use something they might not be as familiar with... how about the Cybuster from SRW?
DireRadiant
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 16 2010, 03:54 PM) *
But a lot can be, if you understand how to write readable and usable rules and some idea about what questions players and GM's have.


There was that word mimic, which doesn't mean it actually turns into a toaster or rocketship.
DMiller
I think throwing a little (not-so)common sense at the rules about realistic form make them work quite well. The spirit is still a spirit even if it looks like something else. Treat it as a spirit with spirit movement and abilities. So in the toaster example, if lets say you have a water spirit that can be a toaster... and you put a slice of bread into it, you get back soggy bread. If it's a fire spirit, well it could make toast.

Some forms (like the motorcycle) could be any spirit, but in my opinion it would still move like a spirit (at spirit speeds), it would just really look like a motorcycle.

Easy, still within the rules as written and not broken. Just a little common sense goes a very long way.

-D

P.S.
This is all of course just my opinion, not calling anyone out or pointing fingers. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Blastula
In the fiction, the ally spirit could manifest as a motorcycle. It was a fully operational motorcycle that didn't need fuel or other maintenance, judging by what was mentioned in the novel. The novel was Ragnarock, in case you're curious. Tommy Talon and his ally spirit, Aracos.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Blastula @ Aug 16 2010, 01:35 PM) *
In the fiction, the ally spirit could manifest as a motorcycle. It was a fully operational motorcycle that didn't need fuel or other maintenance, judging by what was mentioned in the novel. The novel was Ragnarock, in case you're curious. Tommy Talon and his ally spirit, Aracos.


Maybe it just used the movement spirit power on itself.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 16 2010, 05:28 PM) *
There was that word mimic, which doesn't mean it actually turns into a toaster or rocketship.



It mimics its functionality. So a rocket would mimic a rocket and um rocket up into the air with rockets. A car would drive, a plane would fly, a toaster toasts etc. If it mimicks the functionality of your Harley scorpion wouldn't it be driving as fast and as maneuverable as a real Harley otherwise it isn't really mimicking it.

I'm not even saying it does, but a poorly written rule doesn't tell the player the answer they have to make something up to cover it.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 16 2010, 05:42 PM) *
Maybe it just used the movement spirit power on itself.


That is how I run it, but who knows what is supposed to happen. It is not like I ever gave my ally spirit a toasting power so when in the form of a toaster he can toast bread.
Critias
I think it's -- for better or worse -- another example of a "GM's discretion" sort of ability. If a player wants his spirit to be able to replace his Yamaha Rapier, and his GM thinks it'd be cool, well, then it works at their game table. If the GM doesn't trust the player not to go crazy with it (and have his spirit turn into a panzer, instead)...then the GM should hit the brakes early, and just explain that complicated mechanical devices aren't kosher at his game.

Some players would be cool with a motorcycle, others would want the attack submarine or something. Ultimately, it's up to the player and the GM to see what would work best at their table.

So, Ranarion, I'd say your best bet is talking to your GM about it. Let him know it's been okay in the fluff -- though Talon and his Ally Spirit set some other precedents that may be a little goofy -- in the past, and that you think a motorcycle would be awesome. Then just chat with him to hammer out movement, and voila.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 16 2010, 03:44 PM) *
I'm not even saying it does, but a poorly written rule doesn't tell the player the answer they have to make something up to cover it.


I don't expect a fully simulationist rule set. It's impossible, and would detract from most of the game. There's just going to be lots of stuff in the rules where you are going to have to make a decision for your game.

I'm perfectly happy to make those for my games. The fact I need to do that occasionally doesn't make it a flaw in the SR4 rules for me. I expect to work out with the other players and GM at a game what works or not as it comes up. There's plenty of rules for the most common parts of the game. Realistic form spirits just aren't the core of the game.

I've never seen an RPG that doesn't have these kind of situations in it. So I'm not going to complain about it. It's kind of pointless to.
Traul
It becomes really funny with Realistic Form and Mutable Form: here come hhe Barbapapa! wub.gif Although I don't remember the Barbapapa ever shifting into an assault cannon.
Hagga
QUOTE (Toloran @ Aug 15 2010, 11:22 PM) *
- Can be banished. (Which is hilarious if you are riding around in your spirit attack helicopter and the enemy mage banishes it from under you).

Wil. E. Coyote moments.

QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Aug 15 2010, 09:53 PM) *
It's certainly rules legal but the whole thing seems crazy to me. How about I make one of my Ally Spirit's Realistic Forms an attack helicopter? Why not dream a little bigger and have another form be a battle ship?

From the toaster example it would be fully functional you just need to apparently supply the fuel/power (which makes the motorcycle example from whatever book that is a bit odd, did he carry around a fuel can or battery pack?).

Things like a realistic form of a sword or whatever, alright sure who cares, you could be carrying one on you normally and while it's the ultimate in smuggling in past security, not a big deal. But when you let Realistic Form assume vehicle forms it goes into effectively creating from thin air some absurd things. The spirit turns into a tank to fight their way out, then a sports car to evade pursuit, later it transforms into a helicopter and once at a decent altitude into a luxury jet. The only thing that prevents "and then into a rocket ship" is that the spirit can't handle the background count in space.

A battleship.. with body 4 and the ability to fire off bolts of light that do 4dv. Why not? If it's one of the forms..

Of course, there would be a size limit in any reasonably GM's game.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Hagga @ Aug 17 2010, 01:53 AM) *
Of course, there would be a size limit in any reasonably GM's game.


How is the size of spirits determined anyway?
Lanlaorn
They were supposed to have a volume per force listed in Street Magic but that sentence got cut for some reason. The author of that section posted an explanation once if you care to search for it. They're not very big even at high Forces though.
Hagga
I've never seen any rules, but I generally just do it as force=size. A force 6 spirit is bigger than a man. A force 12 spirit is 10 metres tall, or if it's any smaller surrounded by an aura of power that's busy shredding delicate objects and making the earth itself wail. Just to, you know, impress on the players that they have officially landed in the shit.
Lanlaorn
QUOTE (Hagga @ Aug 16 2010, 07:26 PM) *
I've never seen any rules, but I generally just do it as force=size. A force 6 spirit is bigger than a man. A force 12 spirit is 10 metres tall, or if it's any smaller surrounded by an aura of power that's busy shredding delicate objects and making the earth itself wail. Just to, you know, impress on the players that they have officially landed in the shit.


And then the Mage casts a few stunbolts... wink.gif Spirits have some relatively big vulnerabilities compared to Dragons and the like heh.
kzt
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Aug 16 2010, 05:28 PM) *
And then the Mage casts a few stunbolts... wink.gif Spirits have some relatively big vulnerabilities compared to Dragons and the like heh.

F12 spirits can have 24 dice to resist. ...
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 16 2010, 06:44 PM) *
It becomes really funny with Realistic Form and Mutable Form: here come hhe Barbapapa! wub.gif Although I don't remember the Barbapapa ever shifting into an assault cannon.

I may be the only American on this board that gets the Barbapapa reference without a Google search. And that's only because I was just in Brittany (Redon) in May and the Gite we were staying at had a Barbapapa DVD left in the player. My three-year-old son was entranced.
Mooncrow
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Aug 17 2010, 11:11 AM) *
I may be the only American on this board that gets the Barbapapa reference without a Google search. And that's only because I was just in Brittany (Redon) in May and the Gite we were staying at had a Barbapapa DVD left in the player. My three-year-old son was entranced.


Not the only one^^ Though the only reason I know it is because that was the user name of a teammate on my manga scanlation team^^
Fatum
I'd say if the spirit is mimicking a device's functionality, not assuming it, it's just emulating the process as closely as it's able to.
A bike moves, producing smoke? Well, a spirit does the same thing (still using its own stats). A nuclear power plant uses nuclear fusion to produce energy? Tough luck, unless it's a Toxic spirit of Radiation, it's not emulating that.

That at least seems reasonable...
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