As I am new here, I have no idea where all the craziest Munchkinky threads are.
Therefore I am starting a topic where all the Munchkinky ideas/characters will be found.
There is only one caveat. All munchkin characters must be made using legal/canon rules.
The first two threads which I found are..
Possession and YOUR powers, As with cyberware?
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=32510&st=0
Fun with Free/Ally Spirits!, Inhabitation Greatness and More!
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=25710&st=0
Please feel free to contribute to this topic with your crazy but legal munchkin characters and/or past munchkinky threads!
Full Version: Quasi-Legal Munchkin Characters/Threads
Well there's ofcource the Binky, Horse of the apocalypse(if you cant tell thats a link to picture by Squinty )that Stalheese made up in some thread.
Basically he's a six-armed centaur with 6 cyberarms,4 cyber legs, a cyber torso and cyber skull all with maxed armor.
Thats 46/46 points of armor while naked
Basically he's a six-armed centaur with 6 cyberarms,4 cyber legs, a cyber torso and cyber skull all with maxed armor.
Thats 46/46 points of armor while naked
And i still say it's only the next logical step <.<
Also, take a look at Bloodzilla or the Pornomancer. And Brick, don't forget brick!
Or the ultimate mundane climber. Troll-Bowers are pretty much nerfed.
As are Troll-Throwers. Something which is not yet nerfed is the Mr.Lucky-Built.
And the 3 days in game time to have every skill in the book as a talent soft for 10% of the usual asking price.
There was one built that could reliably shoot long narrow bursts with one SMG in each of his 4 hands.
Also, take a look at Bloodzilla or the Pornomancer. And Brick, don't forget brick!
Or the ultimate mundane climber. Troll-Bowers are pretty much nerfed.
As are Troll-Throwers. Something which is not yet nerfed is the Mr.Lucky-Built.
And the 3 days in game time to have every skill in the book as a talent soft for 10% of the usual asking price.
There was one built that could reliably shoot long narrow bursts with one SMG in each of his 4 hands.
Wasn't there something along the lines of a Bear shifter adept that was amazing at digging through stuff? I remember a thread that had him going under every defense thrown at him.
Also what are the stats on Binky? I am getting ready to throw a cyberized centaur at my group and knowing there is a build already I thought I would use a nerfed version of that to save time.
Also what are the stats on Binky? I am getting ready to throw a cyberized centaur at my group and knowing there is a build already I thought I would use a nerfed version of that to save time.
I never statted him up propperly . . mostly because i am not all that fluent in the SR4 rules to do it . .
Binky is basically the end all be all of the technological terror of shadowrun. An equine Hover-Tank.
If you want to try statting him up, be my guest. Hell, anybody wanna try it, go do it, i'd like to see it.
I only wrote some fluff and got a nice picture from squinky because of it ^^
Description:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=714247
Picture:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=716115
Binky is basically the end all be all of the technological terror of shadowrun. An equine Hover-Tank.
If you want to try statting him up, be my guest. Hell, anybody wanna try it, go do it, i'd like to see it.
I only wrote some fluff and got a nice picture from squinky because of it ^^
Description:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=714247
Picture:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=716115
Honestly, a lot of those builds are not even that great as munchkins. They are more dice pool exercises, a "How high can you get X dice pool?" thing. So you have an ultimate climber who can climb really well, a shapeshifter who can dig really well, and a character who can seduce really well - all pretty niche roles, really.
The pornomancer, my creation (although I only did a dice pool exercise anyone could have done - Frackula was the one who actually came up with the term), is often touted as an extreme example of brokenness, but really, she can only seduce at a superhuman level, a mixed blessing ("You seduce the troll. Take 5S damage"). Otherwise, she is middling in other face skills, and merely functional outside of the social realm. She also has barely any contacts, and is extremely memorable/conspicuous. As I said on another thread, a face with a lower overall dice pool, but a social chameleon with a virtual Rolodex full of contacts, would likely prove a much more effective character.
And Mr. Lucky is nice, but all he really is is a character with a maxed-out Attribute. An effective build, but he spends 95 points for that Edge, compared to a character with 6 Edge who spends 40 points. So are those last two points really worth 55 points?
The pornomancer, my creation (although I only did a dice pool exercise anyone could have done - Frackula was the one who actually came up with the term), is often touted as an extreme example of brokenness, but really, she can only seduce at a superhuman level, a mixed blessing ("You seduce the troll. Take 5S damage"). Otherwise, she is middling in other face skills, and merely functional outside of the social realm. She also has barely any contacts, and is extremely memorable/conspicuous. As I said on another thread, a face with a lower overall dice pool, but a social chameleon with a virtual Rolodex full of contacts, would likely prove a much more effective character.
And Mr. Lucky is nice, but all he really is is a character with a maxed-out Attribute. An effective build, but he spends 95 points for that Edge, compared to a character with 6 Edge who spends 40 points. So are those last two points really worth 55 points?
I'll go ahead and post a pornomancer build so you can see one. SR4A put some caps on social skill dice pools, so this is not a 52-dice monster any longer. On the other hand, the modifiers are not as conditional or mixed with drawbacks.
[ Spoiler ]
Here is Cain's Mr. Lucky build. As he says, it is pulled off a living character sheet, so it might need a bit of tweaking (maybe dropping Strength to 1 (3) to get Attributes to the 200 BP limit).
[ Spoiler ]
And here's the updated pornomancer build i came up with for the last thread.
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma)+Genetic Optimization (Charisma)+speedball of Ex,red mescaline and novacoke)
Aptitude Con
Con (Seduction) 7
National Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability [Con] 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
3+13+9+4+3+2+1+3+3+6+1= 48
Add to that some positive social modifiers and where over 50
+2 for being a babe
+2 from target bieng friendly
+1 for the end result being positive for target
and where in the 53 dice
Edited to fit the new limit on Kinesics(this was copy pasted from an old post of mine) and added Symbiosis mentioned below.
Edited a little more to ad aptitude
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma)+Genetic Optimization (Charisma)+speedball of Ex,red mescaline and novacoke)
Aptitude Con
Con (Seduction) 7
National Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability [Con] 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
3+13+9+4+3+2+1+3+3+6+1= 48
Add to that some positive social modifiers and where over 50
+2 for being a babe
+2 from target bieng friendly
+1 for the end result being positive for target
and where in the 53 dice
Edited to fit the new limit on Kinesics(this was copy pasted from an old post of mine) and added Symbiosis mentioned below.
Edited a little more to ad aptitude
And don't forget that being a dryad gives her +1 to social skills if it is in the area covered by her symbiosis. Unfortunately, SR4A really cut down on the dice pools with their ruling of: "Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings."
On the other hand, it doesn't hurt the super-faces that much, since they generally have high skill + Charisma already, and now Joe Average is not able to equal the playing field with things such as emotitoys as easily. So ironically, their efforts to reign in faces may have made them more powerful.
On the other hand, it doesn't hurt the super-faces that much, since they generally have high skill + Charisma already, and now Joe Average is not able to equal the playing field with things such as emotitoys as easily. So ironically, their efforts to reign in faces may have made them more powerful.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 1 2010, 03:57 AM) 
And don't forget that being a dryad gives her +1 to social skills if it is in the area covered by her symbiosis. Unfortunately, SR4A really cut down on the dice pools with their ruling of: "Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings."
Only the last 5 dice come from social modifiers, that is a term only ever used to describe the modifiers in the table next to that quote.
This thread is very silly. I am glad that it is. : )
How many/which of these are actually legal starting level characters, though?
How many/which of these are actually legal starting level characters, though?
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 2 2010, 09:36 PM)
How many/which of these are actually legal starting level characters, though?
Im pretty sure that my pornomancer build is chargen legal in karmagen atleast(not so sure about BP-gen, but i sheck it too), but i cant sheck before i get to work tomorrow, as my home excell doesn't like my chargenerator. But she most definedly isn't a viable starting build
Karmagen seems to me, at a glance, as retardedly overpowered compared to BP or Priority. But I mean, that is because the one character I ever built in Karmagen was 200% as powerful as any character I ever built with BP...before I even finished allocating my full load of karma.
I could have been doing something wrong but then again, I was using a chargen program so that makes it less likely that it was human error.
I could have been doing something wrong but then again, I was using a chargen program so that makes it less likely that it was human error.
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 2 2010, 09:13 PM)
Karmagen seems to me, at a glance, as retardedly overpowered compared to BP or Priority. But I mean, that is because the one character I ever built in Karmagen was 200% as powerful as any character I ever built with BP...before I even finished allocating my full load of karma.
I could have been doing something wrong but then again, I was using a chargen program so that makes it less likely that it was human error.
Programmer error, then? I haven't found Karmagen to be any wonkier than BPgen.
I could have been doing something wrong but then again, I was using a chargen program so that makes it less likely that it was human error.
No, no. Karmagen pre-errata was extremely powerful compared to build points. The errata changes it to Attributes bought at the SR4A x 5 multiplier, and races paying their BP cost in Karma for their race (30 Karma to be an elf, etc.) instead of getting it for free. Even with the errata, karmagen still tends to be a bit more powerful than BP.
Mr. Lucky seems to be a legal build from eyeballing it. Cain took it from a living character sheet, as he mentioned, but it is easy enough to do a similar build. All you need is an Edge of 8, a high skill in your main specialty, and enough to get by in other areas. The whole point is to have those extra dice in reserve, but not depend on them just to function.
My version of the pornomancer is legal, except for possibly buying up to the maximum that she gets from genetech. I mentioned that in the build, and it is easy to fix if the GM disallows it. She is even a playable character - far from optimal, though, high dice pool for seduction notwithstanding. Lack of leadership or intimidation skills, glamour makes her memorable, lack of the network of contacts a good face should have, and a bare-bones allocation of non-face skills. And her specialty is definitely a mixed blessing, one that will put her into as many dangerous situations as it gets her out of. She is less a face, and more a call girl, stripper, or ex-porn star trying to become a face - with enough useful starting skills to let her get there eventually.
Max's, I am not sure. I got the rule about social dice pools from the SR4A changes document, so I don't know how the rule capping dice pools is actually worded. The ambiguity stems from whether the term "social modifiers" is used in the limited way from when it was used in the BBB, or means all dice pool modifiers. I lean towards the second interpretation, if only because otherwise, it is a completely meaningless rules change. But until they put out an errata on the errata, Max's interpretation is just as valid, and perhaps even closer to strictly RAW.
Mr. Lucky seems to be a legal build from eyeballing it. Cain took it from a living character sheet, as he mentioned, but it is easy enough to do a similar build. All you need is an Edge of 8, a high skill in your main specialty, and enough to get by in other areas. The whole point is to have those extra dice in reserve, but not depend on them just to function.
My version of the pornomancer is legal, except for possibly buying up to the maximum that she gets from genetech. I mentioned that in the build, and it is easy to fix if the GM disallows it. She is even a playable character - far from optimal, though, high dice pool for seduction notwithstanding. Lack of leadership or intimidation skills, glamour makes her memorable, lack of the network of contacts a good face should have, and a bare-bones allocation of non-face skills. And her specialty is definitely a mixed blessing, one that will put her into as many dangerous situations as it gets her out of. She is less a face, and more a call girl, stripper, or ex-porn star trying to become a face - with enough useful starting skills to let her get there eventually.
Max's, I am not sure. I got the rule about social dice pools from the SR4A changes document, so I don't know how the rule capping dice pools is actually worded. The ambiguity stems from whether the term "social modifiers" is used in the limited way from when it was used in the BBB, or means all dice pool modifiers. I lean towards the second interpretation, if only because otherwise, it is a completely meaningless rules change. But until they put out an errata on the errata, Max's interpretation is just as valid, and perhaps even closer to strictly RAW.
Here's a version of Mr. Lucky that I did once. Not as interesting as Cain's version, more of a straightforward combat type, but he still illustrates the concept. Mainly posted to show a 400 point character with costs broken down, a completely legal character (barring that final step of GM approval, of course. )
)[ Spoiler ]
That is actually IMHO a very well built character! On a cash and availability level, can you really afford all that bitchin' ware with just 35 BP to resources? Not really doubtful, just impressed. Looks like Mr. Lucky needs to rely on public transportation. I'm sure the team has a rigger and even if it doesn't he's got no trouble picking up a cab with his luck!
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 3 2010, 05:41 AM)
Max's, I am not sure. I got the rule about social dice pools from the SR4A changes document, so I don't know how the rule capping dice pools is actually worded. The ambiguity stems from whether the term "social modifiers" is used in the limited way from when it was used in the BBB, or means all dice pool modifiers. I lean towards the second interpretation, if only because otherwise, it is a completely meaningless rules change. But until they put out an errata on the errata, Max's interpretation is just as valid, and perhaps even closer to strictly RAW.
Here's the whole Social modifiers bit from SR4A relevant rule bolded
[ Spoiler ]
Also just douple shecked, my Pornomancer build is definedly chargen legal, but i dont think you can make her into a viable character.
The only iffy part is whether or not your GM lets you get +3 to Charisma from speedballing those 3 drugs, but doing that isn't really something i would recommend anyway.
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 3 2010, 07:47 AM)
The Social Modifiers Table (p. 131) provides
some examples.
some examples.
Some examples != comprehensive list. I don't see why you claim that only the modifiers listed on the table are social modifiers. This line in the book states the opposite: there are social modifiers not listed on the table.
QUOTE (Traul @ Sep 3 2010, 10:13 AM)
Some examples != comprehensive list. I don't see why you claim that only the modifiers listed on the table are social modifiers. This line in the book states the opposite: there are social modifiers not listed on the table.
Read the whole description and check the list, yes there are countless of social modifiers but stuff like tailored pheremones doesn't really fit the description of social modifiers and isn't termed to be one in its rules. The fact is that the term social modifier is only ever used into rules when preferring to that table.
But this is getting pretty off-topic.
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 2 2010, 08:36 PM)
This thread is very silly. I am glad that it is. : )
How many/which of these are actually legal starting level characters, though?
How many/which of these are actually legal starting level characters, though?
Most of them are, and that's the bad thing . .
Right now, i think only Binky is not a legal starting character.
Mr-Skill borderlines on not really starting character, but he's set up to aquire every single skill possible in 2 Days of In Game time.
QUOTE (Traul @ Sep 3 2010, 04:13 PM)
Some examples != comprehensive list. I don't see why you claim that only the modifiers listed on the table are social modifiers. This line in the book states the opposite: there are social modifiers not listed on the table.
What modifiers are explicitly social that are not listed on the table?
QUOTE
Most of them are, and that's the bad thing . .
'swhat I was afraid of. Not that any sane GM would allow any 47 stack dice pools anyway for any reason ever no matter what it says in RAW. I hope.
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 3 2010, 06:33 PM)
'swhat I was afraid of. Not that any sane GM would allow any 47 stack dice pools anyway for any reason ever no matter what it says in RAW. I hope.
Why not, its not like 50+ die seduction pool allows a character to solo a run, same goes for high climbing pool and high edge too.
Binky is kinda OP, but he's not even close to being a chargen legal.
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 3 2010, 04:55 AM)
What modifiers are explicitly social that are not listed on the table?
Under the heading Social Modifiers, it says "The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers as he feels appropriate. The Social Modifiers Table (p. 122) provides some examples." That paragraph also briefly mentions some examples of social modifiers, such as wearing the wrong team's sports jersey in a sports bar.
I don't think Max was trying to argue that the Social Modifiers Table was a comprehensive list, though, just that the limit on social modifiers only applies to such conditional modifiers, and not to things such as tailored pheromones, kinesics, and so on.
btw, hyzmarca once did a Leadermancer, a slightly more useful variant of the pornomancer (since leadership is used with the commanding voice power, and using leadership is less likely to give you STD's unless you go into politics).
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 3 2010, 11:33 PM)
'swhat I was afraid of. Not that any sane GM would allow any 47 stack dice pools anyway for any reason ever no matter what it says in RAW. I hope.
That's alright. I'm insane anyway.
*shrug* I just say there's a limit to what someone will do, regardless of the number of social hits you score.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 3 2010, 06:25 PM)
*shrug* I just say there's a limit to what someone will do, regardless of the number of social hits you score.
Bingo. That's the real reason social skills are broken in some games - instead of "You got 12 hits, he really likes you," you have "You got 12 hits, he gives you his credstick and car keys before shooting himself, still with a big goofy grin on his face." My personal opinion is that if you can only make the Johnson give you so much more money for a job, then other social situations should have similar hard limits.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 4 2010, 04:01 AM)
I don't think Max was trying to argue that the Social Modifiers Table was a comprehensive list, though, just that the limit on social modifiers only applies to such conditional modifiers, and not to things such as tailored pheromones, kinesics, and so on.
Finally someone gets me
Ofcource i wasn't claiming that table to be a complete list of Social Modifiers, there are hundreds of social modifiers that migh affact the characters dicepools and that table is just a small list of examples for the GM. But that doesn't chage that fact that only the last 5 dice in my build comes from social modifiers, rest of them are normal dicepool modifiers to social skills.
And i wouldn't call that build useless on non seduction situations as she throws around 40 dice when defaulting on the other social skills, possibly only around 30 for intimidation.
I see the argument that all social mods are social mods as equally valid. Especially given that the alternative interpretation causes massive abuse. 
I posted a more traditional face on the Sample Character Archive REDUX thread. Despite rolling way less dice, I think this build would probably be more effective than the pornomancer in a lot of situations - legwork, knowing people who can provide services or gear for the runners, data search, not being remembered or noticed, noticing things, or even being able to understand what someone is saying.
SR4A restricted dice pool bonuses to the size of the original dice pool. So the pornomancer dryad can have no more than (13+9)*2=44 dice.
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 8 2010, 11:27 AM)
SR4A restricted dice pool bonuses to the size of the original dice pool. So the pornomancer dryad can have no more than (13+9)*2=44 dice.
Maybe read the thread before posting, we have allreadt being over this.
Also its natural attribute+skill, so she can only get 17 extra dice from social modifiers, but as you would know if you read the thread only the last 5 dice in that build come from social modifiers, so thats not a problem
I wasn't talking about the social modifiers, I was talking about all the other dice pool bonuses.
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 8 2010, 05:41 PM)
I wasn't talking about the social modifiers, I was talking about all the other dice pool bonuses.
Only limit added in SR4A is the one for social modifiers.
There's always dronomancer.
I've never actually bothered to build one, though. I always struggled with exactly what drone i would make his primary utility drone. You pretty much need R2D2.
Angel Summoner is good. Just a guy who uses spirits to take care of pretty much all his problems.
Mage Breaker is kind of fun but really only good against mages. He's a mystic adept who takes Spell Resistance adept power, counter spelling focus, and counter spelling skill 6. He ends up with usually more dice than people have to cast, when resisting a spell himself.
There's some pretty ridiculous shit you can do with a Dzoo no qua, or a bear shifter. They both have regen and an incredibly high body attribute.
I've never actually bothered to build one, though. I always struggled with exactly what drone i would make his primary utility drone. You pretty much need R2D2.
Angel Summoner is good. Just a guy who uses spirits to take care of pretty much all his problems.
Mage Breaker is kind of fun but really only good against mages. He's a mystic adept who takes Spell Resistance adept power, counter spelling focus, and counter spelling skill 6. He ends up with usually more dice than people have to cast, when resisting a spell himself.
There's some pretty ridiculous shit you can do with a Dzoo no qua, or a bear shifter. They both have regen and an incredibly high body attribute.
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 8 2010, 05:33 PM)
Only limit added in SR4A is the one for social modifiers.
I don't have the English version of SR4A, but in my french Limited Edition, in the Game Concepts chapter, in the "dice pool modifier" section it's written that the GM can restrict dice pool to 20 dice or twice the sum of the natural attribute and skill (whichever is higher).
It's written as "optional" though.
Anybody remember where the thread with the 50bp character that can have every single skill als a skillsoft for 10% of the listing price in 2 days game time?
i'm trying to find it but i suck at searching dumpshock <.<
i'm trying to find it but i suck at searching dumpshock <.<
Why do you need it? Just get some Skillwires and say, 'I pirate everything'.
Just get some Skillwires and say, 'I pirate everything'.
Because a buddy of mine on a german shadowrun board asked me to show him numbers due to him not wanting to believe me when i told him of such an concept as a viable character option . .
Also, i think i may have found it, but this one only has 39bp and not 50bp like the other even more optimized version i seem to remember . .
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=763401
Also, i think i may have found it, but this one only has 39bp and not 50bp like the other even more optimized version i seem to remember . .
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=763401
QUOTE
Restricted Gear: 5 Build Points
4/4/4/4 Commlink: 2 Build Points
Move-By-Wire 2: 17 Build Points
Data Search 4 Activesoft + Browse 4 Program: 3 Build Points
High Lifestyle: 2 Build Points
3/1 Piracy Network Contact (National Influence, Broad Matrix Resources): 10 Build Points
1,200 Nuyen remaining: included in previous costs
Result:
39 Build Points
Buy hits for Rating 4 Pirated Activesofts (7 Combat Turns per Activesoft)
Minimum Starting Nuyen: 8,000 (Five R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Average Starting Nuyen: 13,000 (Eight R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Maximum Starting Nuyen: 18,000 (Twelve R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.
Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.
This is all assuming your GM is being an asshole & not allowing Pirated Software during character generation (legal software is nearly useless, due to the traceability)
4/4/4/4 Commlink: 2 Build Points
Move-By-Wire 2: 17 Build Points
Data Search 4 Activesoft + Browse 4 Program: 3 Build Points
High Lifestyle: 2 Build Points
3/1 Piracy Network Contact (National Influence, Broad Matrix Resources): 10 Build Points
1,200 Nuyen remaining: included in previous costs
Result:
39 Build Points
Buy hits for Rating 4 Pirated Activesofts (7 Combat Turns per Activesoft)
Minimum Starting Nuyen: 8,000 (Five R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Average Starting Nuyen: 13,000 (Eight R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Maximum Starting Nuyen: 18,000 (Twelve R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.
Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.
This is all assuming your GM is being an asshole & not allowing Pirated Software during character generation (legal software is nearly useless, due to the traceability)
Hell, I don't think you even need the contacts, Data Search, or Browse.
It makes it faster and easier and more reliable. To a degree.
the other built i remember had something like 2 days of in game time to get every single skill in the books aside from emergent or magical ones as a skillsoft.
the other built i remember had something like 2 days of in game time to get every single skill in the books aside from emergent or magical ones as a skillsoft.
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 8 2010, 09:38 PM)
I don't have the English version of SR4A, but in my french Limited Edition, in the Game Concepts chapter, in the "dice pool modifier" section it's written that the GM can restrict dice pool to 20 dice or twice the sum of the natural attribute and skill (whichever is higher).
It's written as "optional" though.
It's written as "optional" though.
Optional rules dont really count.
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