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DAP
As a GM, I don’t like to split the party any more than necessary. Shadowrun has always come with built in mechanics to do just that – VR and Astral Projection. We’ve never really used either but I’ve always wanted to use the hacking side of the game. Astral space I’ve always been ambivalent about, though I like astral perception.

I’ve played a lot of 2nd edition (years ago) but only one brief introductory session of 4th. I’m starting a new 4th campaign and have a question. With the introduction of AR and keeping astral perception, is it possible to cut out VR and projection and not upset some delicate balance elsewhere?

AR would allow for real time hacking, astral perception for interacting with spirits, information gathering, etc.

Control rigs could be a better DNI interface with drones. Not jumped in but able to control drones more efficiently mentally. Sort of a super remote control – keep the +2 dice. Hot sim for hacking is trickier. Treat it like a control rig is my first instinct since initiative passed will likely need to be tied to the physical world.

What do I lose? Gain? Is the whole idea unworkable and idiotic?

Apologies if this has already been discussed to death.
Shinobi Killfist
You can drop them but you have to make some changes maybe reduce matrix security a bit since chances are the decker isn't going as fast now that he isn't hot simmed same with the mage vs spirits. So reduce matirx and astral security a bit and it should be fine. The one issue I can see of with astral projection is wards really stop astral scouting cold. Currently you can track down the ward builder and try to mask yourself so you match his aura and sneak past the ward, if you have to walk there you wont know what is on the other side until you get there. so I wouldn't have a ward and then have a lot of magical crap waiting in ambush on the other side since you took out there ability to scout it.
Yerameyahu
VR is just AR with dumpshock and faster intervals; no need to mess with it. smile.gif If remote-hacking/remote-control is the problem, that's equally a problem in AR.

Projection is kind of a major power of mages, so be aware that you're nerfing them (not that it's a problem). However, be aware that Projection isn't really splitting the party per se; they're still *right there*, as it were. They can leave, but so can a man on foot.
Traul
Without astral projection, you are vulnerable to astral entities because of their higher speed. Face you, blast you and get back behind a building can be done in one astral IP. You would probably have to rule that astral perception does not make one astrally active.
Yerameyahu
Basically, there are two issues that Projection/VR cause, and it'd help to know which you're addressing.

1) PC can stay home (anywhere on the planet) and do their thing.
2) PC's body is inert and drooling while they're out.

So, if the problem is #1, removing VR doesn't fix it (for hacking). If the problem is #2, get a Segway. biggrin.gif

Hmm, what else… without Projection, 'enemy' mages defending targets will probably need to be replaced with (more) spirits?
DAP
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 23 2010, 09:39 AM) *
Basically, there are two issues that Projection/VR cause, and it'd help to know which you're addressing.

1) PC can stay home (anywhere on the planet) and do their thing.
2) PC's body is inert and drooling while they're out.

So, if the problem is #1, removing VR doesn't fix it (for hacking). If the problem is #2, get a Segway. biggrin.gif


I don't mind the astral projection if it's for short jaunts, though issue #2 can be a real liability. Long astral (or matrix) trips leave the rest of the group hanging.

For hacking, I'd rather it took place in real time while the rest of the team is participating. Honestly, we've never used the hacking rules. I like the idea that the hacker attacks the device that's within signal range, regardless of how unrealistic that is.

I'm not sure it'll be an issue anyway. My group would be respectful and keep side trips to a minimum, I'd just like there to be a reason for doing things a certain way.

My initial though was that hacking could force devices to accept incoming signals in a similar way that trodes allow the brain to accept incoming signals; even though they're not hardwired to do so. Of course that doesn't explain forcing the device to send out signals but maybe commlinks can read the activity on the hardware, again, much like trodes do.

This is all theoretical at the moment. I likely won't change anything until I have a feel for it. I would like a backup plan though.

DAP
QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 23 2010, 09:26 AM) *
Without astral projection, you are vulnerable to astral entities because of their higher speed. Face you, blast you and get back behind a building can be done in one astral IP. You would probably have to rule that astral perception does not make one astrally active.


Good point.

I could slow down astral travel for spirits, etc, forcing them into real time combats. I'll have to think about that.
suoq
I'm a bit confused when it comes to passes.

Most character types have ways to get multiple passes (usually 2-3) in their element. How do you plan to adjust for that.

The riggers table of actions is another issue. There's one set of calculations for jumped in and another set for remote contro. RC is much easier to get a large dice pool in but that's balanced by everything being a complex action. Not sure what you want to do there.
Yerameyahu
Well, that's an issue, but here's a bigger one: what problem are you solving with riggers? Either way, they're still focusing all their attention on controlling the drone, whether VR or AR. Same with hacking, as I mentioned: VR or AR, they're still hacking while other things are happening.
DAP
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 23 2010, 11:54 AM) *
Well, that's an issue, but here's a bigger one: what problem are you solving with riggers? Either way, they're still focusing all their attention on controlling the drone, whether VR or AR. Same with hacking, as I mentioned: VR or AR, they're still hacking while other things are happening.


The only problem I'd be solving is the unconscious and drooling team member mentioned above.

But ultimately, any changes may not be worth the hassles of figuring out how they affect the mechanics. If a rigger or hacker wants to go unconscious in the middle of a firefight that's their choice. Their next character will probably use AR, remote control or commands in stressful situations.

I've never tried the new rules anyway and probably should leave well enough alone until I have. At least now they have the options of AR, remote, commands, etc. I guess there's no reason to remove some options when the current rules try to address this.

Ah well, what can I say. It's all a knee jerk reaction to my previous failed attempts to play riggers and hackers in 2nd edition.
DireRadiant
VR is not unconscious, it's -6 to real world actions and perceptions.

It's an old trope in SR, the sams needing to nurse the hacker and mage bodies.
Yerameyahu
Don't forget, after all, that you can turn off the RAS Override. smile.gif
Ascalaphus
Well, astral projection is particularly useful for scouting. There are some other tricks, but scouting is by far the most important. The way I see it, Shadowrun involves some scouting; if it isn't the mage using astral projection, it'll be the Sam using Infiltration. It's just one of those things best done by only one party member, quietly.

So you're going to be splitting the party now and then anyway, there's not really a big way around that. But you can take steps to make sure it's not too much of a burden; you could say that you can only project astrally for a short period, say 10 minutes. That means that any party split only takes a short time, and game flow isn't impeded as much. If you describe the scouting entertainingly, the rest of the players shouldn't mind too much.



Hacking is another thing; it makes sense to hack things remotely. But you can have a party that feels together, even if some of the members are lying in a coffin motel somewhere. That's the joy of a good teamspeak system; the hacker can be constantly involved with the rest of the party. Just encourage them to buy lots of Image/Sound Recording Units and perhaps a portable holographic projector for when the hacker wishes to show himself "physically" to someone the party meets.

I can tell from experience that playing the "overwatch" hacker can be quite fun, and you're actually less cut off from the party than the "meat people" if they have to split up, because you can still use your gimmick with both parts of the party. I'm reading up on drones however, so that I can go "hands-on" if the party gets to an interesting place, and to be able to dish out some physical hurt.
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