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Voran
Didn't want to derail the other thread on converting armor, but I did have a minor thought about flipping armor so it provided a flat dv reduction based on its rating and was wondering if anyone else has tried it in 4th ed (basically using the older armor values from 2nd ed Fields of Fire). Basically making it harder to do damage to someone if you're using a lighter weapon unless you're really skilled.

Or would it work to just use the 4th ed armor ratings but as straight reductions? Though I think this can lead to situations where easily PCs can run around with 11/11 or so in armor, but that does sorta counter Sniper Rifle level base damage, which seems to work.

The problem I see is at 'lower end' it means anyone using pistols and subguns will pretty much never hurt a PC unless they're packing AP rounds. In the above situation, a heavy pistol with ap rounds would still only reduce armor to 2 or so. Would it balance out with the dice pools for attack?

Physical vs stun damage would be a comparison of damage vs base rating of armor, so generally even with ap rounds a heavy pistol would still only do stun dmg to the above 11/11 dude. On the other hand the sniper dude with ap rounds would likely do physical damage.

Not a very original idea I admit, just curious if anyone else has kicked it around, pros? cons? work? fail?
Mäx
Using the SR4 armor ratings as straight DV reduction would make guns pretty much useless, even my non-optimiced Dryad combat-face has 12/12 armor, so most guns wouldn't do more then tickle her.
Even making all armor hardened wouldn't be make guns as useless as that rule does.
Voran
Would the armor values of sr 2 be too low? I think under old sr2, you could regularly pull off around 9 or 10 armor ratings even without wearing 'security or military' armor. Tho If you kept the 4th ed weapon values, it could turn armor into paper in rapid order as you move up the chain a bit. Basically I'm looking for a happy medium where armor does more than add dice, (while just hitting someone gives you usually an automatic DV + hits) so that on average, you don't get into weird situations like the guy with the derringer blowing away fully armored sec guards without having to call his shots, cause he's got like 15+ dice to roll.

Unless the approach might be better served with 'dv doesn't add straight ratings any more, it adds dice, just like everything else'? So a heavy pistol no longer does 5 pts + hits, it does hits + up to another 5 more hits based on rolls.
Thanee
I'm not entirely sure I understand your problem. You think guns do too little or too much damage?

If you think they do too much, why not simply allow customized armor of up to Bx3 Rating to be worn without penalties (optional rule in Arsenal).

Bye
Thanee
Voran
Too much. A low end combat char can get a good 15 dice easy. With a baseline no frills heavy pistol of 5 -1, they can turn the above listed dryad combat/face's armor 12/12 to 11. Add body and you may be looking at 15-18 dice. To me, my thought is, that despite rocking light military grade armor, it still becomes likely that in perhaps 2-3 hits (separate gunshots) they'll get KO'd by stun damage.

Lets assume both sides get an equal number of hits. In that case, the heavy pistol attacker will still always do damage cause they start off with 5 'additional hits' for using a Heavy pistol.


Its not a huge deal, I'm sure a lot of people enjoy the sr4 combat setup, I guess I just find it a little beyond even gritty/realistic into 'hard/brutal mode'
Summerstorm
Hm... Maybe you could change armor and armor rating in the following way:

Every Armor is split into "Hardened Armor" and the normal Balistic/Impact values.
The hardened values stack, also they all provide static hits for damage reduction.

The normal values work as normal and do not stack. (Maybe allowing the good old: second layer provides 1/2 values, third 1/4... )

AP Values get first substracted from hardened.

For example we make the good old Lined Coat (6/4) to a:
Lined Coat 2H/4/2

or the Light Military +Helmet (14/12) to a:
Light Military Armor 8H/6/4.

Of course the we have to change the rules for Stun/Physical determination a bit: The remaining hardened get FULLY substracted before determening that. After that you roll your normal resistance test. Needs some balancing, of course. But it allows for mixing up different Armors, cyberware, adept powers etc. to a more realisticly representation of armor.

For example the force-fields magics and Ki-powers would provide normal armor, while cyberlimbs and skeleton reeinfocrement would provide hardened (and normal). Overall i think we would need to reduce overall armor levels though (Not done above) But i have to make some calculations first... when i have some time.
Thanee
QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 26 2010, 03:02 PM) *
Too much. A low end combat char can get a good 15 dice easy. With a baseline no frills heavy pistol of 5 -1, they can turn the above listed dryad combat/face's armor 12/12 to 11. Add body and you may be looking at 15-18 dice. To me, my thought is, that despite rocking light military grade armor, it still becomes likely that in perhaps 2-3 hits (separate gunshots) they'll get KO'd by stun damage.


Well, that's why you take cover when someone shoots at you. smile.gif

Also, I'm not sure I would call 15 dice low end. It's easily achievable, but the character needs pretty high Attribute/Skill Ratings to get there.

A character with Attributes and Skills of 5 is not a beginner, but rather an experienced veteran.

Bye
Thanee
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