Hi there everyone, I'm looking to GM an online game of SR4. Currently my plan is to run it via Windows Live Messenger (for which I've found a cool dice-rolling add-on).

I'm in the UK, but so long as you can be available at the right times then of course you can be anywhere in the world!

I'll be looking to run it Wednesdays, Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays, approx 6-10pm GMT(=UCT). The time limits are mainly for my one player, so I'm actually available before and after those times if we need to start the session earlier or carry on later on occasion, and we can definitely start earlier at the weekend.

I'm looking to form a group of about 4-5 runners, based in Seattle. I already have one interested player, so I need 3-4 more, no experience necessary!

Starting characters could be anything at all really, the only thing I'll give a flat 'no' to is a rigger with a drone army - they make combat slow, tedious and boring for the other players, not to mention harder to keep track of for me! A more modest rigger character would be okay, or one who mainly uses their bots for spying, etc.

are you looking to do it with voice as well and im?

Hi Kaiser. I'd be interested if you haven't filled up your player quota already. Am in the UK myself and am new to SR but have been looking for a good game. Will be in one later this month. Heads up that I may only be available on weekends. Any preferences for characters? Cheers

Triggvi: I was thinking just IM, but I can do voice as well if people want..

Guardikai: You're more than welcome to join us! Weekends are looking like the better option to me anyway, due to my other player wanting to be in bed early on weeknights for work (awww, bless!)

I'd rather leave characters largely up to the players, but it'll make more sense to think of them after we've got a group together.

Oh, and call me Bill.

The only reason is that im only makes for a very long game. Alot gets lost in the translation.

The only reason is that im only makes for a very long game. Alot gets lost in the translation.

I can see that, although I've taken part in RP online in what was basically just a chatroom, and it worked pretty well. So all in all I'm not too concerned; it depends if the players are very keen on it or not at the end of the day.

Oh, and Guardikai, I meant to say about characters: try to make it have a certain amount of balance. I don't want characters that are only good for combat and nothing else, nor do I want characters that are useless in combat. Either one of those would lead to the player not being involved for large chunks of gameplay and would thus get bored or distracted or just altogether quit. But don't worry too much - build the character you like and I'll let you know if it needs adjusting..

Anyway, chargen is getting ahead of myself a bit - need more players first!

I'd be very willing to join. I've gotten interested into shadowrun only relatively recently and haven't been able to get a game going =\ If I were to join, I'd prefer either Saturday or Sunday (preferably Saturday). Just to make sure: When you say Windows Live Messenger, do you mean MSN messenger or is it something different? (I don't use my MSN account very often so I'm just making sure). For the record: I'm Pacific time zone (GMT- so I'm open for doing either earlier or later on the weekend.

If I were to end up joining, are you restricting books at all? I'm mostly asking since a lot of the supplementary rules books (especially Unwired) seem to unbalance the game if the player is using a book that the GM is not.

Do you know what style of game you're intending to run (so-call pink Mohawk vs. Black Shades)? Other then setting the game in Seattle do you have any theme or plan for the game as of yet?

Windows Live Messenger is very similar to MSN Messenger, and the two can communicate with each other. I'm not certain whether the dice-rolling add-on will work with MSN or not though. I'll have a look for it and also find the links for people to download it as well..

Okay, it looks like you'll have to install Live Messenger for this to work...after that you'll need to install Messenger Plus - http://www.msgpluslive.net/download/

and then the dice roller - http://www.msgpluslive.net/scripts/view/30...ed-Dice-Roller/

Apparently Live Messenger is a linear update/upgrade of MSN messenger - it's largely the same thing, just newer. So your current hotmail address should work fine with - mine did.

As for days/times I was edging towards Sunday after lunch (about 14.00 GMT) largely because it felt like a good time to me: people tend to be more available on sundays, but that works out as errrrrr, 6am for you! =S
But that was just an early idea and we can change it if needs be.

Books/supplements: I've just got the core rulebook atm - I'll have to get my hands on the others and give them a quick once-over..

I have no grand ideas as of yet for the campaign...I have about a dozen missions I downloaded the other day. I need to read through them and then I'll probably start with some of those and likely start making my own up as we progress, after I've got a better idea of what people like/what works well with the group.

Pink Mohawk vs. Black Shades? I assume pink mohawk is heavy on the cyberpunk, whereas black shades would be a more corporate espionage style of play?
I was thinking of leaving it fairly open (at least to begin with), and of course ask the players what sort of game they'd like to do. Being as how the PCs will be relatively new to running I'd have thought it would tend to be closer to Pink Mohawk than Black Shades, but I wouldn't like to rule anything out at this stage.

One thing I'm not hugely keen on in Shadowrun is the magic. I've nothing against a PC being a spell-chucker, but if there's none in the group it certainly wouldn't hinder things. From my point of view I plan on using as little magic as possible.

Well, I'm not an expert on the Pink Mohawk v. Black Shades meme, but I have always taken it to speak to the question of in-game consequences. In a Pink Mohawk game, you ride around on your Suzuki Mirage with your White Knight through downtown Seattle shooting it up with the Corp Sec group that's chasing you in a lively chase scene, and then the next week you're hanging at the local stuff shack downtown complaining about soggy fries with your mates. In Black Shades, corp sec didn't follow you downtown because it was out of their jurisdiction, but interjurisdictional cooperation aside, the local Lone Star doesn't put up with joy riding chummers with military machines guns. Consequently they tracked you with drones and vectored street response personnel as available. Even if you manage to escape, an APB will be out in the lawful parts of the city with your SIN and biometrics, VIN of your mirage, etc. and depending on what records exist on you, folks might be coming to have a chat with you. Also, whoever hired you is probably not very happy about your mug on the six o'clock news. Clips of your joy ride have spread virally throughout the local trix VPNs, and people you know start making wise cracks about your escapade. Hanging out downtown is not likely an option for you (modulo disguise, fake sins, etc.). All this, of course, ignoring what the corp that was originally inclined to chase you might be doing.

Black Shades can also refer to the amount (and depth/sophistication) of planning that tends to go on for a run. These two concepts seem to go hand in hand in my mind. When there are real consequences in the game world, planning is more important.

As for times, I was thinking your original 6-10 PM would work well for me on a Sunday (that'd be 2-6/1-5 for me)... 6am.. not so much.

If you aren't full already, I would also be interested in playing on Saturday/Sundays at your stated time and have a friend who is interested as well.

Hi Bill, I have windows live messenger but not the add on I think so I'll download that. I should be able to make the game timeslot at Sunday 2pm or the later one if you like.

A fair warning: I do occassionally have Sunday shifts (about once a month) that end at 7pm but can get back by 7.15 so wouldn't miss too much if the game started at 6. I can give you a few weeks notice whenever this crops up though. If it's too much of a problem I understand ^^

I'll bear your thoughts in mind regarding character generation. I am thinking face/infiltrator with some basic shooting + silent take down melee abilities? Probably using adept. Think that covers a few bases

Ah, icy, thanks for the info, Shin! With that in mind, I would be somewhere between the two: I don't want the PCs to be utterly paranoid and afraid to wipe their arses without a full complement of backup plans, but also there will be consequences of their actions - especially if they've done something really stupid!

My time calculation of 6am was for Toloran (him being Pacific Timezone), but assuming you're in the East, then 2pm here is 9/10am for you. I don't know how your clocks are set up over there, but at the moment in the UK we've got daylight savings so we're currently in British Summer Time which is one hour ahead of GMT - just to make things really confusing! BUT that's going to end soon, and the clocks will go back to GMT...I just looked it up and that's due to happen on the 31st of October.
The reason I wanted to start earlier is that then we've got plenty of time if the session over-runs, and also we're less likely to be interrupted by people needing food (stupid meatsacks!). So if you could start a little earlier than 1/2pm EST that would be great.
----------------------------------------------

Since you mention the amount of planning, I'll quickly give you guys an idea of how I would *like* things to run: Mr Johnson contacts you at the end of a session (assuming mission complete) with details of your next run. The group then spends the following week planning, to include whatever communication is necessary between yourselves and of course with me (eg. for info from contacts, requests for equipment, etc.). The plan should be complete for the beginning of the next session so we can hit the ground running and make best use of our time. That's the plan, anyway...but you know what they say about plans..

Demelza: You're more than welcome, as is your friend. Do the pair of you have any ideas for characters yet?


I'm kind of assuming that Toloran's time difference rules him out unfortunately, but that does mean that with Shin, Guardikai, Demelza + friend, we have 4 players to add to my one I already have which equals a group of five, which is great! I'm making a few assumptions there, but hopefully it'll work out.

I think I will lay down the law now and say definitely Sunday afternoon, as early as possible, dependent largely on Shin's availability.

Guardikai: Your Sunday shifts don't sound like they'd be too much of a problem - I'm sure we can work around them, especially with advanced warning.
I like your character ideas so far...FYI my other player is thinking of making a techy dwarf (poss. rigger/driver/mechanic), but he's prone to change his mind on a whim, so that's not set in stone yet!


Well, this is looking like it's panning out nicely so far...if people can confirm their definite interest and availability then we can start swapping e-mail/IM addresses. It'll also be a good idea to make an in-character thread on the forums here as well. Agh, that also means I have lots of reading to do! lol

I'll confirm mine now then. Glad my Sundays aren't a problem. Will pm you further details. Good luck with the reading ^^

Edit: Can't pm, still on new member probation. Shucks... please message me your msn email?

I'm a morning person so that isn't a huge problem at all.

You are in GMT right?

Pacific time zone is GMT-8 hours. 10 am Pacific time would be 6pm GMT.

Eastern time zone is GMT-5 hours. 1pm eastern would be 6pm GMT.

I can't reliably do earlier then Noon (12:00 pm). I have other things I have to do in the morning :/.

Is this full/how full is this?

I know my friend has been wanting to play a technomancer for a while, but can't say how certain that is. Myself, I'd probably be looking at something in the way of a mage. Haven't gotten much farther than that yet.

Can't currently PM on this board to exchange e-mail addresses however, so if you can PM me yours Kaiser, I'll contact you direct over msn.

Oh, sorry to bail (although It seems I wasn't going to be in the group ANYWAY but still...) but apparently I've managed to scrounge together a group in real life

Thanks anyway.

My Sundays are free if there's still a slot open. If there's one left I'd be glad to join.

Thanks, Guardikai - got your PM.

Toloran: I didn't meant to completely rule you out I was just thinking the timings made it not so likely that you'd be able to do it, but I'm glad you found yourself a group IRL - I wish you all the best with that! =]


On the matter of times, I just want to check - is everyone fully aware that I'm based in the UK and all times I have stated are local time? Just want to make doubly sure of that because you may not have picked that out and just assumed we were all in the US...I know Shin and Guardikai know this, but how about everyone else who has expressed an interest?

Time zone was understood from the start. It's not a problem.

Excellent. Well, good for us, bad for others...sorry, Neurosis and FlyDog. Thanks for your interest, but the group is now full.

Maybe there'll be a chance for you if someone ends up dropping out, but hopefully that won't happen.


Okay, so a few questions for the group...

What do you guys want from this roleplay? Do you favour the aforementioned Pink Mohawk or Black Trenchcoat? What sorts of things would you really like to be in your runs? And which things would you not want?

Shin: did you have any thoughts on character yet?

Demelza: arg, mage and technomancer! That means I'm going to have to learn more about those things! lol

So, the group so far: Face/infiltrator; rigger/driver(with a big van); technomancer; mage. All subject to change of course, but it's a good start and may help Shin decide what he wants to do.

One last question for now: does anybody know what metatypes they'll be playing?

Well for my part, I prefer a sense of dramatised realism in the repercussions of actions, and a reasonable mixture of planning and improvisation... so I guess that's pretty much middle of the road regarding mohawk vs shades.
No particular preferences towards run content or themes, wouldn't mind running the published campaigns even if everyone else was game. Do prefer Seattle for a baseline location though.

Generation system is a pretty crucial factor for me character wise (mages with their 8-10 extra skills and additional attribute just don't end up as functional people with build points), but that said another campaign I was in had the GM pull out last night. So I might port that character over, they're a street sam/infiltrator - still a starting character.
So I guess I prefer karma generation if going mage, or either if going the street sam.
Pretty flexible though.

Almost certainly going to be human - free attributes be damned.
I'll push my friend to actually start posting for himself.

Ah, I was edging towards the Build Point system as that's what I'm used to and it always seemed a good way to me, but then I've never played a mage..

If you find you can build a reasonable mage but have no points left to round the character out, then I'll consider letting you have some of the other skills/atts 'on the cheap' to help flesh things out. I'll take a closer look at karma gen though - I may end up liking it more than I think.

I'm definitely basing it in Seattle, no question about that - alternate locations mean more work, often for very little pay-off!


A note to everyone: I'd also love some character concepts from you guys! Race, gender, height, build, hair, clothing, distinguishing features (obvious cybernetics?), personality type, lifestyle, back story (careful though - if it's something the other characters wouldn't know about you, don't post it here!), etc.

And if everyone could install Messenger Plus and the dice roller and send me your msn addies, that'd be great!

I have Razor done in the karma gen system. He is a ork cybered up street sam. He was part of a poster gang call the murder or crows. No obvious cyberware but lots of it. He is a hand to hand street sam with some social skills. Kind of like a cybered up skater.

Hi again all,

Sounds like we'll have 2 street sams, 1 also infiltrates and 1 is also a face. That means 2 sams, 2 infiltrators, 2 faces... from 3 people. Seems to be a lot of overlap. Would definately prefer a mage from Demelza . I am happy filing in the roll that's missing in a party. If there is a tank, a ranged and a mage then I play the healer - that kinda thing. I do like social opportunities and combat though I will say.

I'm happy to change concept if players do want to infiltrate/do the talking. I haven't played before but do have a character i've made for another game due to star that's basically a gunbunny+smuggler. Could do something along those lines. I like well balanced parties ^^

As for style of game, from what i've read and my own opinion (again, haven't played so a less strong opinion as a result) I definately support Demelza for a middle of the road game. Some improvisation but also sound planning, a careful team but one that doesn't have to be overly careful to the extent we need to bypass a million layers of security and have a bazillion backup plans to do anything. So a place we need to get into should have guards, maybe some magic shielding, good firewall, surveillance, scanning devices etc. But not multiples of each and if we do anything wrong we get hunted down and killed for sure. There is mohawk silliness, which is fun in moderation (too slapstick if done all the time I reckon) and there is ultra realism where really you have to be contrived like the core book explains "yes they could hunt you down as you left one single finger print and someone got a voice recording of one of you but they'd have to search through too much data to make it worthwhile". Sorry, that's what you use super computers and your own hackers/hacking ais for. They can sift through that much data in minutes if they'd powerful enough. Afterall, the super computers we have today would be normal computers by 2070 most likely.

Anyhow, rant aside, some middle ground would be great! Also don't mind older campaigns, setting or novel missions ideas. Whatever you like Bill - as long as it's a fun challenge with rewards and room for character development. We all just want to be entertained I reckon, you too ^_^

I don't mind BP or karma gen myself. From what i've read and then tried out, BP supports min/max and karma supports more flexible but perhaps less optimal characters... unless you're a mage and then it seems to be both useful but also exploitable. I haven't enough experience to say that as fact a certainty though.

Hey Trigg, overlap aside, the skater ork sounds quite cool. If he is more street smarts and skills then I could always go for the more formal or high society type face? We could build up your street cred too ^^

Well assuming noon EST is early enough on Sundays... I was in the same folded game as Dem, and have a bp generated hacker from that game worked up, although Triarchic let me do a few thing which weren't raw/optional. I could play that hacker I suppose, though I'd probably need to go over his details with you. If we still have a technomancer, though, he'd probably be redundant. I also have a really badly built karma gen'd phys ad gun bunny/bodyguard from another dead online campaign that's even older.

Alternatively, for new characters, I wouldn't mind making a magician--I love them . I don't know the technomancer rules at all, but if we wanted to do some sort of theme'd infil group or what have you, I could make a character to fit. I'm not really married to playing any one role. I'm only in one other game and my character in that game is kinda unique. If I can get a better idea of what everyone else is playing I can come up with something fun to fit in. I'm pretty thin on the hard core cyberware rules, though.

As for chargen rules I think karmagen is superior to BP you just have to patch in the unreleased erata for it. BP I've found to be much more min/maxy. Not sure why Dem thinks it's hard to build a Mage with bp. Anyway, either is fine from my perspective.

As for style, I tend to lean towards black trenchcoat mitigated by playability for pacing and "bandwidth" (there's just a lot to potentially know/think through in SR, which means a lot of information to relay from GM to player and back, which can quickly get to be unfun or even unplayable). I prefer rp and plot/story to combat (the threat of combat is always more exciting then actual combat in my experience--particularly online where combats run slowly). I usually try to play such that combats when/if they occur are one sided and largely foregone conclusions. But I'm not alergic to combat. As long as there's context and reasonable verisimiltude I'm happy .

Hi, ill be having alot of catching up to do but

I am dorf, hear me RROOOAAAAAR!

Also my MSN is shinobidave[at]live dot co dot uk

Must find my damned corebook.

Just a quick message to say if you all send me your msn addresses (and send to each other) then we can sort out characters together..

He is more an ex-ganger. He will not over lap a face at all. He is a heavy combat ork ex-ganger. Just because he has a the influence group at low levels doesn't make him a face at all.

I am mrfixitofmassage@hotmail.com for msn

Guys, I'd like character concepts, not already-completed characters! A little more detail than just an archetype is good as well. What role(s) do you see your character fulfilling in the group?

Honestly if we have 6 then everyone should just play whatever they feel like. 2 hackers/mages/faces - whatever, it doesn't matter so long as there's at least one hacker, one face and one wheelman (Bill said having magic wouldn't be especially important). Having 2 of something just means you have more actions per round in that aspect and more redundancy when people get wounded/separated. It's a good thing.

What are the changes to the karma gen system Shin? I googled it and couldn't find any more than vague suggestions of future errata.

As for mages with BP, it's not hard to make one. It's just hard to make one do anything but be a mage. You end up with very few other skills and very weak attributes. Maybe etiquette, infiltration and a weapon type. Then there's assensing, astral combat, perception... I probably just expect too much. I'm yet to actually play a mage in sr4 though; used to play them in sr3 a lot.

Been doing a rework of an old one, ex-Knight Errant bug hunter. All rounder combat mage and magical support type.

The sam/infil is a crashcart augmentation model, bodyguard and covert operative. Predominantly the cat burgular type of infiltration rather than the social engineering approach(she's too memorable for that).
Quite effective if it comes down to combat, and can fill in for most mundane archetypes with the right software.

Don't forget investigation skills!

Also, a close-quarters specialist is handy to say the least.

I would prefer people to think about being gun-bunnies (if that's what you want) as secondary to other skills...the whole team will cover fire support, so individuals geared specifically towards that are not-so-needed..


Cat-burglar infil I like, skillwires are good, but note softs have had their price increased with SR4A. Especially activesofts. That said, it may well be the case that Mr Johnson might give you required softs just for the length of the mission. I figure Mr Johnsons would have the capacity to 'borrow' essential equipments like this to ensure the run goes smoothly (smoothly in theory at least!).

Re: Karmagen
AH posted an official unofficial errata for karmagen (he wrote it originally, so it's as close to "official" as we're likely to see until the official errata is printed). I believe he said that races cost BP cost in karma, but it might have been BPx2 in karma. The xls sheet that most folks use for karmagen (available in the resources section of Dumpshock) has settings for both of these options. Personally I like race BP cost in karma *and* you have to buy your stat minimums (i.e. no free stats). But I might be sadistic?

Let's see...
Re: Mages in general
I think mages are very (easiest to break the game with) powerful, but that's another topic entirely. I have built them using BP and Karmagen, and both are quite workable. If Kaiser_Bill is going "magic light" anyone who might want to play a mage or adept should probably calibrate with him. Astral Combat is not a very useful ability if he's going to downplay Astral space. Assensing is only as useful as the GM allows it to be, really, and banishing is not of much value if no one ever runs into a spirit (stop smirking! Banish isn't pointless! I swear.... i swear... ...). But I digress. The Enchanting skills, reagents, etc. all stuff whose impact depends on how the GM intends to expose them in game. Personally, I could use a better understanding of the role of magic in Kaiser's game .


Anyway, sorting out characters together sounds like a plan to me. What time do we want to all try to get together?

Yea, proper group discussion would be beneficial. Personally I can do it whenever.

I would use the karmagen as printed in the runners companion book with attributtex5. Playing with goofy errata that is officially unofficial is normally because it is goofy. You want well rounded characters use the karma gen as written. If you use the goofy errata, you might as well use the bp system.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's stupid. Karmagen is a much better chargen system, but it has an obvious hole. Races don't cost anything. It was simply left out of the rules. Meta-types provide free stat points, free stat max increases, special abilities and cost nothing. That's clearly a mistake. Having people pay 2xBP cost in karma for their meta-type should be a common sense adjustment. Nothing "goofy" about it. If you want to encourage more meta-humans, you can use 1xBP cost. I would say if you don't want to patch the obvious oversight in the karmagen rules, just use the BP system. Or force everyone to play humans.

Oh, and P.S. Yes, you should totally use the SR4A Attribute karma cost (x5).

Hi guys, that's me who wanted to play the technomancer. I'm pretty flexible though, so can come up with something when we get together to discuss the group.

ok, some quick replies here:

Metatypes costing nothing is stupid IMO. I thought it wasn't the case, but I hadn't quite read the rules correctly in the Runner's Companion (I read the bit for build point conversions where it says for these that metatypes cost BPx2). I'm yet to decide what to do about this. But as it stands it seems to be encouraging players not to play humans, which is daft.

Shin: I'll try and talk to you via messenger about the role of magic, but yes, I intend it to be 'magic light'. It shouldn't be a hindrance to the group if there's no mage: I don't intend for there to be any situations that only a mage could deal with. I don't mind people taking mages or adepts per se. All that said, if we do end up with magic users, then obviously I'll up the amount of magic coming from my end..

Welcome Richy! Good to have you with us!

And finally - I won't be online much tomorrow or Thursday, and not at all on Friday, Saturday or Sunday this week, so don't be alarmed by my lack of response! I'll catch up with everything on Monday next week.

Regarding the cost for metatypes I threw together a quick table comparing 0 cost, 1x cost and 2x cost. Ignoring qualities and changes to maximums. (which I can't effectively show here)
But the result was quite clear - the original intent for metatypes to use their extra karma to offset increased costs of improving racially boosted stats can't ever work. So adding a flat cost alone isn't the answer.

The real problem is systemic of increasing costs for raising their naturally high stats which in turn promotes a cost saving exercise where metas are likely to end up far below average in their racial favoured stats.

I think the fairest and most sensible option would be to add the racial modifier AFTER buying base level attributes, paying 3x for race and removing the limit bonus on max attribute spending(so it would be 375 max for everyone). In this way your flat cost is for the modifiers, and you're otherwise balanced against any other race with them maintaining their intended flavour.
This results in mirroring the way they function with build points and trusting in the initial values for each metatype set by the game authors. Not to mention makes cost calculation much simpler.
Notably it also doesn't leave humans out in the cold either since their +1 edge also becomes better, along with the karma difference for not spending on a type.

Maybe more radical but I don't see why you should flit around the edges of a problem when it's baring it's jugular to you. There's probably some massive unforeseen problem with it however...

You people geek way too much.

I'm interpreting that as a vote for moar pink mohawks.

Dem..

As an outsider and Karma gen.

The way Karma gen works with the updated costs.

You pay BP in karma for the metahuman race. You then get all your stats to the racial minimum for free.

Additionally you set your Max Karma for stat at 375+(BP*2)
So for a troll for example you could spend 455 Karma on stats, instead of the standard 375.

You still end up with big trolls with big stats. It's just expensive. Though their low stats are /much/ cheaper.

I think he is saying people are making too much fuss over karmagen and not enough fuss on making good roleplaying characters. Over analyzed and nit picked. I can agree with him.

I know it is in our nature as gamers to over analyze things.

Um, yea Sabs. I wasn't ever in doubt as to how it 'works.' I was proposing an alternate fix to the "free metatype problem" than the BP cost times 1-2. But whatever, seems nobody understood, doesn't matter.