I found a pawn shop up here in Seattle that had a really good price on a bulk supply of Earthdawn books. Looks like they have pretty much everything to get a game going. I've never explored these books and don't have much information about the game world, play mechanics, etc etc.

I'd like to get a general concensus on what the dumpshock crowd thinks of ED as a game, not what they think of the continuity between the system and Shadowrun. It sounds cool to me (story linkage to Shadowrun), but I don't want to waste my money or my players' time with something that isn't nearly as cool as SR.

p.s. we all like fantasy gaming as well.

There really should be a "No, I know what it is but am not interested" option. Better play ignorant than fake wanting to play it...

Its a great game and worth buying. Even if you don't play it, the books are a good read for the setting alone.

....and Go Humans!!

I played it for a while and loved it, but the GM refuses to get off his lazy ass and continue the game. Damnit my archer's itching to snipe some more horrors and make some more enhanced arrows! hehe i still remember a conflict where the gm meant for us to be captured by a slaver team, we did get captured but not before i killed their elementalist with a curving arrow while collapsed on the ground. what can i say? that damn mage really pissed me off. then i went and made a back-up character that was an elementalist cause i was so impressed by what he could do.

My only book is Scourge Unending, but I'm definitely looking to get into it when I get the chance.

~J

I'm probably a rarity around here, but I started playing ED and then moved to SR, and personally i prefer ED.

*dodges the rocks*

*Throws a stone instead of a rock, catching durthang in the side of the head*

~J

wasn't really impressed. it's just another fantasy setting, to me; if it weren't for SR, i'd have probably never looked at it.

Disliked the game. I don't like games where your character-class determines everything about you.

Sphynx

i didn't like the 'everything is magic' thing. what if you don't want to play a mystically-oriented magicalish hoodoo guy?

It has one of the best backgrounds of any fantasy game. It has some story links to SR but the similaritys end there.

The mechanics are completely different. It is class based, your hit points keep on going up and up and up. All of this fits the epic fantasy mood of ED very well.

If you and your friends can stomache d20 fantasy you should love ED.

I picked up the main book on eBay, just because I'd heard the setting mentioned on here. Whilst I think there are some interesting bits about it, I wouldn't foresake my D&D for it...

Sorry. If I'm gonna use a fantasy class system, I'm gonna stick with tradition (and a system I know backwards) rather than trying to sort out something new. And if I WANT to play Fantasy Shadowrun, then I'll use Shadowrun rules and play with them a bit so there's a more direct cross compatability (my players are EASILY confused).

[Edit: placed a null-vote since "I know what it is but can't be arsed to play it" wasn't an option.]

H'mm I voted for like to play it but haven't, but I didn't know it was class based either. I don't mind class based, because I think it works well in a fantasy setting - but that's another argument - but I agree that we already know AD&D (2nd edition, anyway), and learning a whole new system would be tricky for people.

But on the other hand, if its unique enough and not a complete D20 clone or heaven forbid something like Rifts (sorry, but I hate it), I'd still give it a go I think. I need to read the books.

Yes it is class based, but there is a reason for that. Each character is what is called an Adept (but it has no relation to the Adepts of Shadowrun). There are different types of Adepts (Archers, Beast Masters, Swordmaster, Necromancer, etc) and when you choose to be trained as an Adept, it is basicly a life path for you. You can pick up another "class", but doing so is VERY expensive, as you are basicly picking up a second life direction. I don't think I can explain it very well, maybe AH can take a crack at it.

Basically, the point I wanted to make is that while it is class based (something I don't usually like), the classes are well done and there is a good background reason for the game to be class based.

The difference between classes in DnD (and its various clones) and Discplines in ED is that ED Disciplines are much more versatile and customizable (in fact, when Dnd 3e came out, people were bitching about how much it appeared to borrow from ED).

In DnD (and its clones), you gain XP, and eventually you move up a level and then you stay at your current abilities until you go up another level. In ED, you actually spend the Legend Points (essentially XP) to improve the skills and talents you want to improve. Then you have to go through increasing your circle (when and if you want to), which is far heavier roleplaying wise than in DnD. This makes the system more complicated than DnD for beginners (who are used to: gain 1,000 XP, hits Level 2, gain hp, skills, better attack bonus, more spells automatically, etc.), because now they have choices to make (gain 1,000 LP, which talents do I want to increase? SHould I improve my circle? Maybe I can work on a skill. Say, I could research a brand-new spell or increase the thread rank on my weapon...)

You can be first-level and max out your first level talents at rank 15 (or even a few talents from higher circles, if you pay the Legend cost); or buy the bare minimum of talents for each circle and gain access to the really cool ones really quick.

The magic system is a big draw for the game (at least in first edition; go back and find Magic: A Manual of Mystic Secrets. Much better.) Unlike DnD, you don't just pick up a magic sword and use it. But unlike DnD, every weapon has at least a little history and can grow in power by inevest time and energy in weaving a thread to it (far less "Okay, I take the dead bad guy's weapon 'cause its more powerful than mine.") Spells aren't ten-a-penny like DnD, and ED spellcasters don't tend to the uber-Godlike levels that DnDers seek and progress to (no Wish spells, no need for Wish spells).

Item creation is single-handedly the best aspect of the entire system, and little things like ritual magic, half-magic, conjuring and, of course, blood magic add spice to life.

MultiDisciplining is more difficult than MultiClassing in DnD, and there are no Feats or Prestige classes. Hell, you have to buy your own attribute increases as you go up in Circle. Likewise, ED is still on "monster worth X LP" rather than the level-based CR of DnD; which has both good and bad aspects to it.

Finally, ED has plot and backstory. DnD doesn't, period. DnD is a system with umpteen different world settings, ED has one (but it kicks ass!).

I have had a few characters in the 350 karma range and a 1 or 2 of those closer tot he 600 to 700 karma range and never had the need to go magic, nor did I ever wish they had. I have one character that is so damn lucky I he never been to deadly in stun or physical. So going adept makes no sense to me. I have had a few characters that were mages and physical adepts that are in the 350 range, true they kick much ass, but if a straight fight or what ever they don't stand a chance. I guess my character really specialize in a slim field that allows every karma point to be invested in that field.

Contacts in our games play such a role, that no matter your Karma level, if you can't get the gear or the spells, a well connected guy with mediocre skills will stump on your guts.

I have seen 200 karma point characters killed by first run characters, in a relativley fair fight.

Mages with almost every spell in the book have been killed by a well connected Sam.

I just don't see what you mean by getting 350 karma a Shadowrunner needs to take up magic.

I meant my Forgotten Realms Shadowrun-port, which tunes the rules here and there to better fit the FR world. As well as tuning the FR world to fit the SR rules, of course.

With the tuned system, in the current set-up, it costs so much Karma to gain significant magical abilities that a mundane is just as well or better off until the total karma spent on the character (using a BeCKS-like character creation system) hits ~350.

The current system also allows characters to gain magical abilities in-game, so someone could be mundane up to 350 Karma and then learn to be a full mage -- though that will take him/her the next ~120+ Karma, plus skills and spells.

As for why the mundane vs awakened balance necessarily shifts significantly when you go medieval on the group's ass, check the Awakened vs Mundane discussion here.

The second edition ED from living room games addresses the "every swordmaster is like every other swordmaster" issue somewhat. Much like the knowlage skills from SR3 they do a similar thing. This does help distinguish one character from another.

While it is class based, it is not entirely level based. Essentially going up in levels can help you, but it isn't required.

If you want to try a fantasy system and you aren't throughly entrenched in one already, give ED a try.

If this was a thread about why ED was better than D20 we could go on and on.

But I should have that if I ever find an ED message board as good as Dumpshock is for SR.

I like the ED system a lot.

Yea its classes, and levels, but as people have said the level part of it is quite loose. It isn't class/level like AD&D (never played d20) or Rifts where you go up a level and all your skills automatically go up by particular increments, you raise your abilities separately and periodically you qualify for a new level, unlocking new abilities. But you can, and most people do, leave a few low level abilities languishing, and pump others slightly higher than what is needed for the next circle(level). Also as people have said the levels and classes are not just a mechanical abstraction that assaults the suspension of disbelief, they are worked into the universe to provide rather than remove opportunities for roleplay. Really it is the only level-class system I have played in which I was never bothered by the existance of levels and classes.

The combat system is great. Combat is quick, fun, and you get to do tons of cool stunts. The step dice system is great, super quick and easy to learn. Entirely different from the rather gruling process of shadowrun combat where it takes several people to figure out the target number for something, and they are wrong half the time anyway.

ED has far and away the best magical items I have ever seen in a game. They are complicated and cool, but easy to use. They develop slowly over time along with the charachter as magical threads are woven between them. Again they are an opportunity for roleplay rather than a cold statistical abstraction like d&d's +1 sword or even worse shadowruns weapon focus-2. They lend themseleves to creating sub-plots specific to each charachter without dragging everyone else down. They make the player feel special really, like the center of the universe, one of the highest goals of role playing (in the broad sense where most games with a story are role playing games) game design.

Crimson Jack, if you decide not to buy the books could you let me know where you found them? I live in Seattle also, and I've been thinking about buying ED off and on. For that matter if you do buy them and are looking to fill out your roster of players I might be interested in trying it out as a player also!

Thanks!

Mike

There's one option missing in the poll:
Never tried it and don't plan to do so.

(I know it exists but I'm generally not interested in this kind of fantasy games.)

I started playing ED and SR at about the same time with different GMs who know each other (and play in each other's games anyway) and I'm very fond of both games. In ED, there's so much roleplay that it makes stats almost obsolete--so discovering that many of the number crunchers in here don't like it doesn't surprise me. SR is a higher number-crunching game anyway, and it seems like it was meant to be.

I played D&D only once or twice, and I got bored so quickly that I didn't roleplay again for six years or so. Both ED and SR are keeping me both so involved that I almost didn't believe it. Currently (because of storyline) ED is actually my favorite. I just think they're different styles--it's obvious that one is more fantasy and the other is cyberpunk.

And saying that you HAVE to have magic is a little excessive. A swordsmaster or warrior's 'magical' talents are very combat based for the most part. Talents like "Wound balance" (not falling over when you get hit), and "taunt" (mocking your opponent in combat to make them lose their temper) are 'magic,' but they're also perfectly legit actions/combat possibilities. There are those disciplines wholly magic based (Illustionist, Wizard) and those that are more roleplay based (Troubadour). IMO, few of the disciplines rely solely on magic. My char rarely uses anything similar to magic--and in the instances when it does happen, the magic is so tightly woven into the personality of the char that it's almost unnoticeable. So I roll one extra die sometimes--reminds me of an SR pool.

The magic only option for PCs in ED is just something that you have to acknowlage and deal with. Rather than having everyone capable of doing amazing things there are certain people whose very beings lend themselves to a path of magical ability. These people called adepts tend to end up as adventurers and are capable of doing things that normal people can't.

You have to buy this concept as part of the game world. It is a very different feel and intent than shadowrun or a modern system and the mechanics reflect that.

Yes it has classes and levels, but they are well thought out and they aren't like climbing a ladder, they are more like building a sandcastle. You can build wide if you want, or you can built straight up into a tower, your character develops as you choose.

Yes it has hit points. The healing mechanic is good and prevents too much hit point abuse, and it helps to provide a gap between upper levels and the lower. Shadowrun has a built in low gap between he best and the worst. A starting character can run with a 300 karma character and contribute. In ED there are things that are intended to just be outright beyond your reach. Hit points work well in this game.

The gear doesn't make the character. In other fantasy games it is a big deal to get the best magical gear, your gear is often more important than your abilities as a person. Your character is kind of a proxy for the magic sword and armor he wears and giving those things to another person is easy and then they are as powerful as you were. In ED you have to spend XP to bind magic items to you, so it is entirely possible to make a viable character without any magic gear at all.

If you want to play a fantasy game, this game is about the best fantasy game I have played. Coming in you have to accept that it is about bigger than life characters who are going to be absurdly strong by the end of their careers if they make it. These are storys of epic legend. Beowulf swam underwater for three days fighting monsters continuously. St George went one on one with a dragon. These are the kind of stories you look to tell with ED.

If you want a fantasy game with less of a gap and an overblown philosophy behind it, you might want to check out Runebearer. It is a free rpg. Tactics and stat heavy but very good. Skill based system. And for free what can it hurt?

Apolgies for the lack of orginization or cohearence here. im at work.

I just nulled the vote - should have been a 'not played it, don't want to' option. I bought the book for background material for SR, but beyond race descriptions I've not didn't find it that great. I guess I'm just not a fan of pure fantasy RPGs, and I'm even less a fan of class systems.

Also in Seattle. Would love to buy these books if'n ya do't, at least some of 'em.

I already run SR and will soon be running Nobilis, so probably no Earthdawn due to time constraints...

I bought a hardback Earthdawn(not sure on edition, it's FASA published) with all the tearouts and maps still in it. I got it because I know of the ties between it and SR, and I wanted to see what would fit, maybe someday I can make a campaign with it, but right now I'm rather stumped as to how to proceed with a campaign, maybe I'm not reading enough of the book to know but I get this feeling after reading it that I need another Earthdawn book just to know anything about horrors/build a campaign. anyone have any thoughts about that?

Perhaps it's because I tend to prefer fantasy to sci-fi anyway, but i felt more prepared to run a game after reading just the ED main book and the SR main book. Then again, both have a bad habit of scattering the useful charts and tables and hiding the one piece of info you need.

As for not knowing much about the horrors, don't feel let out, that's part of the point. No one knows much about them. One reason being those who study them have a bad habit of going insane and dying. Tends to cut back on scholarly research.

But yet AH is still with us...

~J

I chose Earthdawn over D&D to run for my players simply because the background of Earthdawn tied in well with the Shadowrun universe. Earthdawn does not come as a fantasy game ready to drop into any background and that is what sets it apart from D&D - just as Shadowrun is not just a cyberpunk game, it is a packaged immersive world. That is what you get with Earthdawn.

I'll admit my players are more orientated to Roleplaying rather than rules, and this makes life extremely easy as a GM. However, I can see that rules hungry groups are going to have problems with the inflexibility within Earthdawn. I like it though. It meant that each player had a very individual character, that played a very defined role within the group. Again though, that had little to do with the game, and more to do with the RP ability of the players.

The thing that really swung it for me though was the tie in between SR & ED. It gave the players a little bit of a head start in understanding the world in which they were playing (the ED scourge and the tides of magic had all been alluded to in previously run shadowrun).

Finally, if you pick up the ED rulebook in one hand, and the three core D&D books in the other, which one allows you to go out and start with minimal preparation? At least ED has a bit of background info about the world getting you off the ground straight away. You need to buy more books to get that with D&D... Damn those marketing people...

*tosses his two cents into the jar*

The ED world was and is very interesting and I would sit down and read the books if they'd strip out the damned mechanics.

I tried to puzzle out the ED mechanics and it gave me a headache. And the overwhelming amount of magic did turn me off just a tad.

-Siege